According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought All the time?

[Jonesboy]

Are you sure you are just trying to explain?

 

That last post seems to be saying a lot more about you than you sharing your knowledge of the Dao.

[Taoist Texts]

Btw, you are Chinese as much as I'm a ballerina... 

but  you are a ballerina, no?

[opendao]

but  you are a ballerina, no?

 

as much as you are Chinese by mentality... So no, I'm not and never been.

[Taoist Texts]

  So no, I'm not and never been.

dude be strong and never give up on your dream. u can still become a ballerina if you give your 100%. we all are rooting for ya.

 

[flowing hands]

This sort of reply from someone who extols the virtues of great compassion leaves me almost speechless. I for one greatly appreciate the input and effort Opendao puts into this forum. It is excellent to read the perspective of someone engaged within a living Daoist tradition. 

 

I like reading everyone's posts here on topics that interest me, and am thankful for the diversity of perspectives.  

 

(BTW I have referenced this reply on another topic: http://thedaobums.com/topic/40414-may-all-beings-be-happy/?p=672416 )

 

Hey,

So what are you saying, that as a compassionate person one is not allowed to say anything that may smack of a truth or of a differing opinion. That seems to me to be heading towards dictatorship or namby pamby abuse where people are allowed to carry on abusing others taking away there freedom of speech and their thoughts because as in this case the person concerned deems to inflict their opinion about things that not only are technical, historical and perspectives but are giving their opinion on what others experience as being non valid.

 

The Dao is balanced remember this, the gods in the Heavens are equally not compassionate where abusers and fools are concerned. Don't abuse my good name because of your lack of balance.

[opendao]

 

dude be strong and never give up on your dream. u can still become a ballerina if you give your 100%. we all are rooting for ya.

 

We? bro, you're alone in your attempts to pretend to be Chinese without being raised as Chinese. I bet you'll never be. No "rooting" yet? You said that.

 

Are you sure you are just trying to explain?

That last post seems to be saying a lot more about you than you sharing your knowledge of the Dao.

 

no probs, you've seen what you've seen.

 

The last post was about "brainwashed freaks" pretending to be "enlightened people". You're free to say that it's about me, but it would be not completely true. Just because I don't pretend, I'm just passing the working knowledge over, what approaches work and what don't. Yes, based on my own experience, experience of my teachers, teachers of the teachers and multiple texts these teachers left to the Dao followers.

 

The hard critics of misconceptions and deviations is a very common subject in Daoist literature and oral teachings, this is my knowledge I'm also sharing, because usually people imagine Daoists as being not involved in any social activities, and not discussing the evil around so "not to disturb sensitive hearts". It is simply false, all the time, started with Lao Zi, Daoist have been very straightforward in their opinions. Now it's hard to accept, but it's again about mind and strict differentiation between evil and good inside - the knowledge many people nowadays exchange to the "no rules" and "all paths are the same" formula.

 

Any other questions about me is better to address in PM, and I'm hoping to see your opinion about "mind training in Lao Zi or Zhuang Zi", because this topic is very important for anybody looking for progress in Dao cultivation: in the beginning what we think and understand can define completely the entire future life.

[opendao]

Hey,

So what are you saying, that as a compassionate person one is not allowed to say anything that may smack of a truth or of a differing opinion. That seems to me to be heading towards dictatorship or namby pamby abuse where people are allowed to carry on abusing others taking away there freedom of speech and their thoughts because as in this case the person concerned deems to inflict their opinion about things that not only are technical, historical and perspectives but are giving their opinion on what others experience as being non valid.

 

The Dao is balanced remember this, the gods in the Heavens are equally not compassionate where abusers and fools are concerned. Don't abuse my good name because of your lack of balance.

 

freedom of speech is not equal to freedom of confusing people... You can say many times that you've seen Jesus (your words, your freedom, no probs, it's a usual thing), you can believe in "Fufa" being Immortals and so on, but if you, based on such subjective experience, start to teach others what to do, then at least try to put some logical foundation behind your teaching. Because your words contradict what Daoist teachers teach, contradict texts, and it confuses people who are trying to sort out, hesitating, and haven't found a good way yet. Then you insult people they have no balance... Are you able to understand that it's not correct at all? If not, ask "Jesus" or whoever else is on call today ))

 

Your own experience, described in many places on this forum, can't support your own claims that you "understand Dao", or "learnt from Lao Zi". So it's your responsibility to care about your good name and claims of results, nobody forced you to say what you were saying. Any freedom has many responsibilities, if you don't know it yet.

 

p.s. Kind of strange to watch, how political slang penetrates into spiritual teachings: "freedom of speech", "dictatorship", "taking away there freedom of speech and their thoughts", "abusers", "good name"... Again, it's all about mind.

[Taoist Texts]

  You're poor. Spiritually poor.  

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3)

[opendao]

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3)

 

you're flattering yourself, I was thinking about this:

 

Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." (Gosspel of Thomas)

Edited February 5, 2016 by opendao

[flowing hands]

freedom of speech is not equal to freedom of confusing people... You can say many times that you've seen Jesus (your words, your freedom, no probs, it's a usual thing), you can believe in "Fufa" being Immortals and so on, but if you, based on such subjective experience, start to teach others what to do, then at least try to put some logical foundation behind your teaching. Because your words contradict what Daoist teachers teach, contradict texts, and it confuses people who are trying to sort out, hesitating, and haven't found a good way yet. Then you insult people they have no balance... Are you able to understand that it's not correct at all? If not, ask "Jesus" or whoever else is on call today ))

 

Your own experience, described in many places on this forum, can't support your own claims that you "understand Dao", or "learnt from Lao Zi". So it's your responsibility to care about your good name and claims of results, nobody forced you to say what you were saying. Any freedom has many responsibilities, if you don't know it yet.

 

p.s. Kind of strange to watch, how political slang penetrates into spiritual teachings: "freedom of speech", "dictatorship", "taking away there freedom of speech and their thoughts", "abusers", "good name"... Again, it's all about mind.

 

 

You are showing ignorance again, the Chinese is 'Fa fu', a very traditional way of shamans. Of the Immortal master giving their power to heal and help others. Have you never even seen the Daoist Cannon? It is not subjective, it is a traditional practice and many people can testify to its efficacy. It is well known in traditional Daoism that shamans are taught by Immortals and many are blessed with being taught their martial arts. If you have ever ingrained yourself in the indigineous population of say Malaysia, you would know that this is talked about quite frequently in Daoist practices. In the book of Taoist Master Chuang, you can read this master drawing the 'fu' on the ground and his son was taught martial arts spiritually. I met one day in London a famous Chinese Kung Fu Master, he turned out to be of the same sect as myself. He asked me where I had learn't my Kung Fu I said from the Immortal Masters, he said "oh that is very good indeed". He himself said he could draw the 'FA FU', but had never been able to get the Immortal master to teach him Kung Fu. So my teaching comes from a very deep and well established background based around traditional Chinese society where they exist in Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore. Where does your lineage come from, please tell us I would like to communicate with your teacher and ask him some questions. If you want to ask my teachers, face the eastern Heaven on your knees, and with all your heart beg them to come to you and answer your questions. Of course such Immortals are only interested in those that are humble, do you feel you can be empty of ego and submit yourself as being and knowing nothing?

 

I have just looked on your site, you are Russian are you not and you say you have learn't from a Chinese master in China.

Read about the Cultural Revolution and what happened. Virtually all Daoist Masters went away to various places around the world and what was left in China were jailed or murdered. Manuscripts and teachings were burnt, practices banned. There really are very little left of real Daoism in China, it is all watered down and then passed down. Now I know why you have never heard of the 'fa fu'. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by flowing hands

[Marblehead]

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:3)

Oh!, No!!!  My Taoist friends are quoting from the Christian Bible!

[Taoist Texts]

 And I really love your last cry here:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/39346-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy/?p=669962

 

Some more love to go around;)

 

11.  “Daoism starts with the body”

 

Misconception: “Neidan is superior to all other practices because it is based on dual cultivation of the mind and body, while all other practices are lopsided”.

 

Why it is wrong: First, the neidanists claim that they practice the dual cultivation, then they turn around and claim that they cultivate the body first. But in reality they do neither.

 

What, in their ignorance, they believe to be either their dual practice or their body-first practice, is actually a deviation which is called

 

走火入魔 zǒuhuǒ rùmó ‘roving fire, entering demons’

 

Unwittingly, they activate the so called ‘false fire’ or the ‘empty fire’ which dries up their bodies producing:

(1)  sensations of localized hot spots in the body, spontaneous movements - ‘roving fire’,

and

(2) irrational emotions of anger, delusions of grandeur, greed - ‘entering demons’.

 

Besides observing their behavior on the web and in the real life, how else can this diagnoses  be confirmed? It is actually rather simple: they boast about it.

 

When, after a seminar, the grateful students leave glowing reviews on a webpage of a neidan school, these reviews boil down to:

(1) “After the seminar, I feel heat radiating from my dantian, at my kidneys, my hands and feet are always hot now, spontaneous movements have been activated” – sensations of ‘roving fire’,

(2) “After the seminar, I have become more attractive to people, especially of the opposite sex, the things are magically going my way, my business prospers, I am a part of a great teaching now” – delusions of ‘entering demons’.

 

Far from being disabused of these errors by their teachers, the students are encouraged to persist in their errors by their blind teachers, leading the blind.

 

They irony is that they mistake a common deviation - for a great achievement, the trivial spontaneous movements - for the primal qi, the false internal feelings - for the neidan (the internal medicine of eternal youth). Of the neidan, in their delusion, they also boast to possess, which is  of course a major symptom of a deviation.

 

Correct answer: the neidanists mistake deviations for achievements, a brief flaming of a false fire for the true energy.

 

There is a sappy Chinese song also called (for a reason) zǒuhuǒ rùmó ‘Roving fire, entering demons’, - a tribute to the madness of the first love, to the hot flashes, the raging hormones and the general silliness of youth, which, similar to the illusory achievements of the neidanists, will pass only too soon.

 

Let them have their fun while it lasts.

 

Enjoy the song!

 

[Taoist Texts]

Oh!, No!!!  My Taoist friends are quoting from the Christian Bible!

From the new testament. not from the old one.

[Marblehead]

From the new testament. not from the old one.

Just don't be tellin' me you are going to turn the other cheek.

[flowing hands]

Any way Jesus did tell me that he was not happy with all his followers who seem to think it is a good thing to wear him on their chests and other place showing him being tortured and in death!

 

There was nothing wrong with Jesus as a person, only all the stuff, the churches and the religion that followed, not forgetting the bible as well!

[opendao]

You are showing ignorance again, the Chinese is 'Fa fu', a very traditional way of shamans. Of the Immortal master giving their power to heal and help others. Have you never even seen the Daoist Cannon? It is not subjective, it is a traditional practice and many people can testify to its efficacy. It is well known in traditional Daoism that shamans are taught by Immortals and many are blessed with being taught their martial arts. If you have ever ingrained yourself in the indigineous population of say Malaysia, you would know that this is talked about quite frequently in Daoist practices. In the book of Taoist Master Chuang, you can read this master drawing the 'fu' on the ground and his son was taught martial arts spiritually. I met one day in London a famous Chinese Kung Fu Master, he turned out to be of the same sect as myself. He asked me where I had learn't my Kung Fu I said from the Immortal Masters, he said "oh that is very good indeed". He himself said he could draw the 'FA FU', but had never been able to get the Immortal master to teach him Kung Fu. So my teaching comes from a very deep and well established background based around traditional Chinese society where they exist in Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore. Where does your lineage come from, please tell us I would like to communicate with your teacher and ask him some questions. If you want to ask my teachers, face the eastern Heaven on your knees, and with all your heart beg them to come to you and answer your questions. Of course such Immortals are only interested in those that are humble, do you feel you can be empty of ego and submit yourself as being and knowing nothing?

 

Answer questions first, then make advices... So far you're just bringing more questions about your lineages, relations between off-roots and mainland sects, your relation to Xiao Yao Pai etc. It moves us out of the topic, which is simple: "Shamanism is not a root of Daoism, so its ideas cannot help in Dao cultivation".

 

Btw, I haven't found your school name anywhere. What's that? Feel free to use Chinese, it'll be more clear then your "transcriptions".

 

And what cannons of your school are in Daozang? At least some.

I hope you know when and how Daozang was created.

 

About your martial arts skills: there is a video on your site. I'm happy if someone names it "immortal kungfu received spiritually". I see nothing interesting comparing to IMA masters seen in China...

 

Also I have no interest to discuss Daoist off-roots from "Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore"...

 

Even in mainland China very often ancient Daoism is mixed up with various sorcery, folk religions, martial arts and so on. 

 

But there are a few places where Dao has been preserved in Mainland China, it's enough to know what they think about Dao and how do they cultivate it, so it's possible to differentiate deviations from the tradition of HuangLaoXue / shenxianxue. If you can find them - ask them and compare with what I wrote. But I think for most people it's easier to open eyes and explore texts.

[Marblehead]

Any way Jesus did tell me that he was not happy with all his followers who seem to think it is a good thing to wear him on their chests and other place showing him being tortured and in death!

 

There was nothing wrong with Jesus as a person, only all the stuff, the churches and the religion that followed, not forgetting the bible as well!

Yeah, the wise are the wise.  They try to help.  It's all the crap that follows after the wise sage dies.  But then, I guess people think they weren't good enough so they make up magic stories about them.

[opendao]

Some more love to go around;)

 

11.  “Daoism starts with the body”

 

Misconception: “Neidan is superior to all other practices because it is based on dual cultivation of the mind and body, while all other practices are lopsided”.

 

Why it is wrong: First, the neidanists claim that they practice the dual cultivation, then they turn around and claim that they cultivate the body first. But in reality they do neither.

 

so little you know, so dark is your heart... The stupidity of your claim is that it's impossible to practice Ming without Xing. "Dual cultivation" also doesn't mean that Ming and Xing are cultivated simultaneously. Next your quotes of students testimonials again are not applicable: they practice no Ming work yet.

 

About "roving fire": you don't know even its symptoms, confusing it with heat sensations, which happen very often in the beginning because it's a beginning and students' yin-yang is not balanced yet. Other gibberish is not worth even to comment, because it's based on false statements. "Entering daemons" - again you've never even heard how it's happen. Who are you trying to fool except of yourself?

 

Ming is associated with the "body", same as Xing is associated with the heart-mind. But when texts speaks about Ming cultivation, they don't assume that Daoist do physical education exercises or martial arts or any other body activity. Also "roving fire" cannot happen after Ming work, it's the main difference between safe methods of the alchemy and postheaven methods of Qigong.

 

Some Daoist schools have changed the initial principle, disclosed by Lao Zi, and start the practice with Xin (heart-mind) cultivation, then Ming. It has own good reasons, but it doesn't change the main principle of "dual cultivation". There are some stages characterized as "more Ming, little Xing" etc. The main idea is that the body cannot be disregarded, as it happens very often in many systems, that lost (or never had) Ming work.

Edited February 5, 2016 by opendao

[Aithrobates]

Shamanism is not a root of Daoism, so its ideas cannot help in Dao cultivation

 

Shamanism is not the root of anything. It's an outdated, etic anthropological concept. And in another hand it's a very popular word with a very wide range of meanings, and so in the end sometimes no meaning at all.

 

Here is not the place to give an lesson in anthropolgy but, in a nutshell, it is now considered that there is no such specific thing as "shamanism" but simply an ontology that is animism. Animist ontology views comparable interiorities in differents exteriorities ("bodies"). So human or stag or wolf corporeal bodies, or no corporeal body at all (a spirit) it's all the same, in the inside there is an awareness just like ours.

 

In this line of thinking it becomes possible, as animal and spirits are deep inside exactly like us, to interract with them. War, alliance, marriage, teaching, etc... That's what, as observed in Siberia in the first place, was named shamanism after a local name. But... it's only one of the possibilities that are available in animism. All shamanism is animistic , but animism is not allways shamanistic.

 

So if we can consider that Daoism has an animistic ontology, it does not mean that it is rooted in shamanism, only that it shares with it a very old an very widespread view.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Aithrobates

[opendao]

Shamanism is not the root of anything. It's an outdated, etic anthropological concept. And in another hand it's a very popular word with a very wide range of meanings, and so in the end sometimes no meaning at all.

 

Here is not the place to give an lesson in anthropolgy but, in a nutshell, it is now considered that there is no such specific thing as "shamanism" but simply an ontology that is animism. Animist ontology views comparable interiorities in differents exteriorities ("bodies"). So human or stag or wolf corporeal bodies, or not corporeal body at all (a spirit) it's all the same, in the inside there is an awareness just like ours.

 

In this line of thinking it becomes possible, as animal and spirits are deep inside exactly like us, to interract with them. War, alliance, marriage, teaching, etc... That's what, as observed in Siberia in the first place, was named shamanism after a local name. But... it's only one of the possibilities that are available in animism. All shamanism is animistic , but animism is not allways shamanistic.

 

So if we can consider that Daoism as an animistic ontology, it does not mean that it is rooted in shamanism, only that it shares with it a very old an very widespread view.

 

Well put together. Thank you. I was thinking about it, it's a very widespread idea in the West that shamanism is the root of Daoism, so I tried to find anything reliable (haven't found). Usually they speak about shamans-Wu, who possessed (probably) some similarity with Siberia shamans. That's why Wu was translated as "shamans" by Western scientists. It's out of my interest why Flowing Hands uses the word "shaman", but definitely "sorcerer" is more applicable to what he does. Siberian shamanism is known, as I told before, if it's not fake, then it works with various ghost, lower level spirits, yin-worlds by means of trance and yin-spirit abilities. As you probably know, Dao goes in the opposite direction and doesn't need any side help except a teacher. So stories about "light beings" teaching someone are mostly just illusions, in rare cases - yin-spirits in dreams or trance. Both leads to quick exhaustion, health, emotional and life problems.

 

About animism. Sure Daoist treats everything as alive (because it is). But it's not the most important in Daoism. Daoist doesn't ask trees to help him, he doesn't feed bananas to various spirits or "gods", he basically has no need to deal with them. So even animistic approach can be different.

 

In Dao teaching the Nature has its own role, because it's a huge ocean of energy, maybe unique by its beauty in the Universe, and sure it's possible to use it for the sake of practice or in helping people. But it's another story, it's not a communication with spirits. It's just a sensitivity to such energy and ability to manage it.

 

In contrast, spirits-gui are really not so cool to deal and communicate with... 

[dawei]

For someone afraid of spirits you have an awful lot to suggest regarding Lord Lao and the Three Pure Ones as 'not so cool'.

 

You are talking from your tradition/teaching and that is ok; your teaching can be what it is.

 

But without direct experience akin to those in Daoist tradition who had spirit teachers, you're just talking outside of your tradition and teaching.

 

Your tradition boundaries don't allow you to see what is the full spectrum of Dao[ism].

 

There is nowhere Dao is not.

[opendao]

For someone afraid of spirits you have an awful lot to suggest regarding Lord Lao and the Three Pure Ones as 'not so cool'.

 

for someone advising what Dao is and what it's not you're too inattentive:

 

"Lord Lao" is not a "spirit-gui" I referred as "not a cool experience"

(proof: "In contrast, spirits-gui are really not so cool to deal and communicate with").

 

So Dawei, attention!

Lao Zi is a Xian.

Immortal.

Not spirit-ghost-devil-Gui 鬼! 

 

I'm not surprised you see no difference though: you have no boundaries. That's a real problem, no kidding.

 

And Attention is very important in "mind training". Thanks for pushing the topic forward in a right direction. 

 

There is nowhere Dao is not.

 

Dawei, the word Dao has multiple contexts in the tradition. The Dao that is everywhere is not your Dao, and not what Lao Zi named as Great Dao. There is dandao, rendao and a lot of other terms you need to figure out (yes, practically) first to grasp at least something about what Dao IS. Then it'll be very easy to understand what is NOT Dao in the context of Daoist cultivation.

[Taoist Texts]

so little you know, so dark is your heart...  

 

 

lol;)

[flowing hands]

Shamanism is not the root of anything. It's an outdated, etic anthropological concept. And in another hand it's a very popular word with a very wide range of meanings, and so in the end sometimes no meaning at all.

 

Here is not the place to give an lesson in anthropolgy but, in a nutshell, it is now considered that there is no such specific thing as "shamanism" but simply an ontology that is animism. Animist ontology views comparable interiorities in differents exteriorities ("bodies"). So human or stag or wolf corporeal bodies, or no corporeal body at all (a spirit) it's all the same, in the inside there is an awareness just like ours.

 

In this line of thinking it becomes possible, as animal and spirits are deep inside exactly like us, to interract with them. War, alliance, marriage, teaching, etc... That's what, as observed in Siberia in the first place, was named shamanism after a local name. But... it's only one of the possibilities that are available in animism. All shamanism is animistic , but animism is not allways shamanistic.

 

So if we can consider that Daoism has an animistic ontology, it does not mean that it is rooted in shamanism, only that it shares with it a very old an very widespread view.

 

You are just playing with words and what ever has been dug up by modern people. The difference is I have access to peoples who lived thousands of years ago who have passed from the material world and into the energy world, call it spirit. They were there, they lived that culture and were alive. A wu was actually a female shaman so described as in ancient times the female was venerated as producing magic in giving life to another life. People thought that this natural act was something supernatural before they understood the connections between sex and reproduction. Some women are very sensitive, sometimes more so than men and they developed a sensitivity to the energy of other life and then on to the unseen spirit world. A question mark has been put on many practices by our friend who considers himself beyond any learning, who feels he can openly criticize anyone from any other sect or teaching, because perhaps he is making money by selling his practice. He reminds me of the self made Taoist Mak jo si of Chi in nature, who basically knew nothing of any real value, throw something that any real Daoist would know and they flounder by then devaluing whatever you have said. That is the key to this person practice, throw anything of value at them and they will devalue it as being wrong or nothing or not real.

 

Shamanism to give it a modern word, was the beginning of Daoism. Lao Tzu didn't just up and write all those pages by himself. He was surrounded by a deeply spiritual and shamanistic culture that had existed for many thousands of years before. Modern intellectual exercises in trying to stereotype peoples cultures, practices and beliefs are just that. You really don't know because you weren't there, there is not enough sufficient evidence to say what was there and what did people believe or call things, but I do know on good authority that the word 'Dao' was first called 'sprirt way', which came from wu. I say again the two pictograms that make up the word 'Dao' are a foot and head of a wu wearing deer antlers. This is the root of Dao. Even intellectuals agree with this.

[Taoist Texts]

Shamanism is not the root of anything.

It is interesting how those who side with neidan are unwilling to come up with logical reasoning for their opinions. They just state unsupported statements.

It's an outdated, etic anthropological concept. And in another hand it's a very popular word with a very wide range of meanings, and so in the end sometimes no meaning at all.

 

Here is not the place to give an lesson in anthropolgy but, in a nutshell, it is now considered that there is no such specific thing as "shamanism" but simply an ontology that is animism.

What is the point of this no-lesson? Lets say we call a specific human behavior   animism now instead of shamanism. Does it make it non existent or proves that 'animism' is not a root of anything?

Animist ontology views comparable interiorities in differents exteriorities ("bodies"). So human or stag or wolf corporeal bodies, or no corporeal body at all (a spirit) it's all the same, in the inside there is an awareness just like ours.

 

In this line of thinking it becomes possible, as animal and spirits are deep inside exactly like us, to interract with them. War, alliance, marriage, teaching, etc... That's what, as observed in Siberia in the first place, was named shamanism after a local name. But... it's only one of the possibilities that are available in animism. All shamanism is animistic , but animism is not allways shamanistic.

This is both   irrelevant to your opening claim, and unsubstantiated.

 

So if we can consider that Daoism has an animistic ontology, it does not mean that it is rooted in shamanism, only that it shares with it a very old an very widespread view.

Again, a completely unsupported opinion. Supported opinions must include a 'because'.