According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought All the time?

[Marblehead]

The three schools of Daoism:  Alchemic (Shamanic), Philosophic, and Religious.  Born in that order.

 

Each school has its varying views.

 

But all are Dao.

[Aithrobates]

You are just playing with words and what ever has been dug up by modern people.

 

Yes indeed. I'm just saying that "shamanism" is a very cloudy concept after decad of academic and pop-culture use and missuse. I just think that so many different people will give so many different meaning to this word, that I feel that nobody is really sure of what we are talking about when we write it. Anyway I tend myself to use the word in specific context, when I think it's ok (ie not too far from Siberia) But I find this tricky.

 

Let's ask what is the "shamanism" eveybody is talking about, and we will have a dozen of definition. I've talked with people who think that shamanism is defined only by altered states of conciousess, or only by the belief in spirits, that it was an adequate word for evey type of spirituality because it is the "primordial tradition", that ir is the samed as witchcraft etc.. etc... I even met a stoner telling be that smoking weed made it a shaman (because of the altered states of conciousness...) ^^

 

 

Yo got me wrong, I'm not criticizing any kind of spirit work, nor the traditions involving Immortal teachers . While I'm not qualified to say if what you say is or is not Daoist - and that it's not my point, I agree with what you said in this post, and that similar things can be documented in many cultures.

[Aithrobates]

It is interesting how those who side with neidan are unwilling to come up with logical reasoning for their opinions. They just state unsupported statements.

So now I'm siding with neidan ? A tradition I have not acess to and never claimed to be initiated in ?

 

What is the point of this no-lesson? Lets say we call a specific human behavior   animism now instead of shamanism. Does it make it non existent or proves that 'animism' is not a root of anything?

I never said that "animisn is not the root of anything". Quite the contrary. Animism, that is thinking that everything is alive, is the basis of many traditions including the one we - more or les adequately - call "samanistic". And, again, of many more traditions. I'm saying that we are confusing shamanism and animism. Not all animism is shamanism, which - again - is a just a conventional term invented by anthropologists to describe and classify.

 

The first practices that were described as shamanism in Siberia consists mostly in working with spirits relevant to hunting, like animal spirits, and spirits of the forest that rule the animals and can give them. Like by marrying the daughter of the spirit lord in order to have and alliance with him. Just like you would do to have and alliance with a another tribe. This is pretty specific.

 

The term has been applied to many traditions regardless of many variations in goal and practices. The common element being only the animist word view that offer the possibility to find other aware being, beyond human persons, to work with.

 

That and the healing practices. But all cultures have healers. Those who work with spirits uses their alliance to heal too.

 

This is both   irrelevant to your opening claim, and unsubstantiated.

How so ?

 

Again, a completely unsupported opinion. Supported opinions must include a 'because'.

Because Daoism is rooted in an animist world view, not in shamanism. A tree is rooted in the soil, not in another tree.

[Taoist Texts]

How so ?

 

Because Daoism is rooted in an animist world view, not in shamanism.  

You just used 3 undefined or non-consensual terms. Thats how.

[Aithrobates]

You just used 3 undefined or non-consensual terms. Thats how.

 

Indeed. We have no consensus and no common definitions. That's the whole point of the argument.

[Marblehead]

But I think that Shamanism can trace its roots back to Animism.  This would beg that I state that, yes, Daoism (all three schools) has some of its roots in Animism.

 

Oh!, thanks be to my Spirit of the Valley!

[Aithrobates]

But I think that Shamanism can trace its roots back to Animism.  This would beg that I state that, yes, Daoism (all three schools) has some of its roots in Animism.

 

Agreed.

[damdao]

That a religious tradition comes from shamanism is a paradigm, a framework, it is not a proven fact, as far I know. It is a theory put in vogue after Eliade's works. It is the opposite to the traditional origin of religion, be it in Greece, Egypt or China.

[dawei]

"Lord Lao" is not a "spirit-gui" I referred as "not a cool experience"

 

It is good you made this clear as you mix up what was said before with now saying 'spirits' which can cover a lot of ground.   With experience, one knows the differences they are interacting with.

[Marblehead]

That a religious tradition comes from shamanism is a paradigm, a framework, it is not a proven fact, as far I know. It is a theory put in vogue after Eliade's works. It is the opposite to the traditional origin of religion, be it in Greece, Egypt or China.

True that it would be difficult to prove as most animistic beliefs originated prior to any written languages so all we have to go by are the oral transmissions.  But still ...

[Taoist Texts]

Indeed. We have no consensus and no common definitions. That's the whole point of the argument.

That is easy to correct. I think you will agree to the following reasoning.

 

At the dawn of the history people held certain beliefs. Those beliefs, no matter animistic or shamanic, involved designated specialists to communicate with spirits. The most apt name for such specialists are 'shamans'. One important responsibility of shamans was maintaining a history of past divinations and controlling the propriety of rituals. According to historical evidence, those two responsibilities were included in Lao-zi's job descriptions, thus he is a shaman. Since he is the founder of Taoism, it follows that Taoism has originated from shamanism.

[dawei]

That is easy to correct. I think you will agree to the following reasoning.

 

At the dawn of the history people held certain beliefs. Those beliefs, no matter animistic or shamanic, involved designated specialists to communicate with spirits. The most apt name for such specialists are 'shamans'. One important responsibility of shamans was maintaining a history of past divinations and controlling the propriety of rituals. According to historical evidence, those two responsibilities were included in Lao-zi's job descriptions, thus he is a shaman. Since he is the founder of Taoism, it follows that Taoism has originated from shamanism.

 

Maybe this discussion should move here:

 

http://thedaobums.com/topic/22407-the-dao-de-jhing-is-a-shamanistic-treatise/

[opendao]

lol;)

 

It is interesting how those who side with neidan are unwilling to come up with logical reasoning for their opinions. They just state unsupported statements.

 

LOL - Logic of Lamers

 

1) ignore facts

2) out of many hypothesis built on the lack of facts, pick any you like and present it as an ultimate truth

3) insult those who brings facts destroying the ultimate truth

4) say lol when it's impossible to ignore facts

 

example:

 

At the dawn of the history people held certain beliefs. Those beliefs, no matter animistic or shamanic, involved designated specialists to communicate with spirits. The most apt name for such specialists are 'shamans'. One important responsibility of shamans was maintaining a history of past divinations and controlling the propriety of rituals. According to historical evidence, those two responsibilities were included in Lao-zi's job descriptions, thus he is a shaman. Since he is the founder of Taoism, it follows that Taoism has originated from shamanism.

 

How easy is to build wrong hypothesis out of wrong facts and lack of logic. 

 

"Since he is the founder of Taoism, it follows that Taoism has originated from shamanism."

 

Stalin has finished and supposed to be an Orthodox priest, does it mean that Stalinism is based on Orthodox Christianity? Obviously not. False lame logic just to fool people.

 

It is good you made this clear as you mix up what was said before with now saying 'spirits' which can cover a lot of ground.   With experience, one knows the differences they are interacting with.

 

dear Dawei, you made bunch of mistakes, cannot read carefully and now saying I "mix up"? You're talking too much with ghosts it seems, forgot how to listen to normal people. I'm using Daoist terms you don't worry about, but it solely your problem.

 

But I think that Shamanism can trace its roots back to Animism.  This would beg that I state that, yes, Daoism (all three schools) has some of its roots in Animism.

 

there is no such tradition as Animism in Chinese tradition.

 

Fu Xi, Yijing, Hetu, Luoshu, Chinese etymology - it's not animism, but it's what was before Huang Di.

 

Next, Yellow Emperor, who is the real founder of Daoism, Lao Zi just passed it over to students and left the text (to students!). 

 

According to the tradition (written and oral), Huang Di learnt from shenxian. Who were they? Not shamans, they didn't connect the world of spirits and men by means of any communication. They cultivated Dao "in mountains". Was it just animism? No, the main idea of that ancient teaching was Dao, which is beyond the Nature, beyond Heaven and Earth. The main goal was to attain Dao and ascend to higher realms. I hope you agree that it's not the same as Shamanistic, Animistic or other things scientist are trying to convince us about the past of Daoism?

[Aithrobates]

At the dawn of the history people held certain beliefs. Those beliefs, no matter animistic or shamanic,

involved designated specialists to communicate with spirits. The most apt name for such specialists are 'shamans'. One important responsibility of shamans was maintaining a history of past divinations and controlling the propriety of rituals. According to historical

evidence, those two responsibilities were included in Lao-zi's job descriptions, thus he is a shaman. Since he is the founder of Taoism, it follows that Taoism has originated from shamanism.

 

- Animism ontology is observed mostly in Eurasia in the Americas, in other places people see  the way nature is differently. So let's not make it a general, universal theory. But I give you this is very ancient stuff.

 

- Not all spirit work that are refered as shamanism in academia have specialists. In Siberia Mongol an Turk peoples have it, in other tribes have everybody has the right to shamanize - they call it familly shamanism. That's what I'm talking about when I say that the term is applied to many different traditions. So if you narrow the application of the term "shamanism" to the situation where  the spirit worker is a specialized person, recognized and qualifed by the community, we're getting something more precise.

[opendao]

You are just playing with words and what ever has been dug up by modern people. The difference is I have access to peoples who lived thousands of years ago who have passed from the material world and into the energy world, call it spirit. They were there, they lived that culture and were alive. A wu was actually a female shaman so described as in ancient times the female was venerated as producing magic in giving life to another life. People thought that this natural act was something supernatural before they understood the connections between sex and reproduction. Some women are very sensitive, sometimes more so than men and they developed a sensitivity to the energy of other life and then on to the unseen spirit world. A question mark has been put on many practices by our friend who considers himself beyond any learning, who feels he can openly criticize anyone from any other sect or teaching, because perhaps he is making money by selling his practice. He reminds me of the self made Taoist Mak jo si of Chi in nature, who basically knew nothing of any real value, throw something that any real Daoist would know and they flounder by then devaluing whatever you have said. That is the key to this person practice, throw anything of value at them and they will devalue it as being wrong or nothing or not real.

 

You lie to cover yourself. And I'm not a friend to people without virtue.

 

I criticize the gibberish you write, you have nothing to answer to my simple questions, just repeating same mistakes over and over. You cannot even provide the name of your school, but telling I'm fake. Not serious.

 

Your experience and practices are not Daoist in its heart, contradict texts and the tradition, and don't lead to basic results marked by Lao Zi as Dao.

 

That's just fact I see out of your insane revelations, "holyman", "immortal shaman", "kungfu champion" and other titles you use, they can't hypnotize me, alas. It doesn't mean the practices I'm questioning don't work, sometimes they are, but the problem is that they don't work towards Dao, and that's you will never understand.

 

There are many Dao schools that are in parallel with what I'm saying. Sad they don't appear here often, though I understand their reasoning... But it doesn't mean I'm alone and "above any learning". There is a lot to learn for anybody, however I'm against the idea to accept any rubbish as a truth. That's my only point in this topic: choose carefully what to practice and from who to learn. Bad experience can stop your practice in this life or can lead you in an opposite direction. That's the mind discipline I'm talking about.

 

And in this topic we could see many interesting examples how the lack of mind discipline make people inattentive, insane and, eventually, crazy and sick. The mind training I've covered lightly is not a "secret practice", it costs you nothing, but as any other training it needs many efforts. Regular practice of any traditional Qigong / Neigong does help, but it cannot substitute the intellectual work needed to be done first. Gifted students have it innate, many people today are not gifted,  but they could practice and attain Dao. Because they could tame their mind and find a balance.

 

Shamanism to give it a modern word, was the beginning of Daoism. Lao Tzu didn't just up and write all those pages by himself. He was surrounded by a deeply spiritual and shamanistic culture that had existed for many thousands of years before. Modern intellectual exercises in trying to stereotype peoples cultures, practices and beliefs are just that. You really don't know because you weren't there, there is not enough sufficient evidence to say what was there and what did people believe or call things,

 

exactly, so any claims that Lao Zi was a shaman and was surrounded by shamanistic culture have no proofs and substance. It's just a stereotype some shallow people like to stop own progress.

 

but I do know on good authority that the word 'Dao' was first called 'sprirt way', which came from wu. I say again the two pictograms that make up the word 'Dao' are a foot and head of a wu wearing deer antlers. This is the root of Dao. Even intellectuals agree with this.

 

No, intellectuals don't repeat such popular mistakes: 

 

所行道也從辵從首一達謂之道 (說文解字) 

 

for those who can't read, I have pictures:

 

Dao  "head"    and antlers 

 

Nothing in common. So again no shamans.

 

Last nail in the coffin of this misconception about shamans: the Chinese culture is text based. When something is a root, then terminology, characters etc will be used in the texts of the descendant teaching. There is nothing like that in classic Daoist texts.

 

Idea that Dao De Jing is a "shamanic text" cannot be supported by any researcher, initiated into the Daoist tradition. Minus one myth.

[Marblehead]

there is no such tradition as Animism in Chinese tradition.

 

Fu Xi, Yijing, Hetu, Luoshu, Chinese etymology - it's not animism, but it's what was before Huang Di.

 

Next, Yellow Emperor, who is the real founder of Daoism, Lao Zi just passed it over to students and left the text (to students!). 

 

According to the tradition (written and oral), Huang Di learnt from shenxian. Who were they? Not shamans, they didn't connect the world of spirits and men by means of any communication. They cultivated Dao "in mountains". Was it just animism? No, the main idea of that ancient teaching was Dao, which is beyond the Nature, beyond Heaven and Earth. The main goal was to attain Dao and ascend to higher realms. I hope you agree that it's not the same as Shamanistic, Animistic or other things scientist are trying to convince us about the past of Daoism?

I am unable to agree or disagree due to lack of sufficient knowledge.  For me it really doesn't matter anyhow as my interest in Daoism pretty much starts with Lao Tzu.  At one time I did begin looking into the more ancient stuff but I lost interest.

[Aithrobates]

there is no such tradition as Animism in Chinese tradition.

 

Fu Xi, Yijing, Hetu, Luoshu, Chinese etymology - it's not animism, but it's what was before Huang Di.

 

Indeed, there is no such things as an Animism tradition, with a capital A. Animism or better animist ontology is a concept, but a very clear and precise one, used to describe cultures that sees everything as alive and aware in ways that are just like the way humans are alive and aware.

 

IMO Chinese culture as a whole is - in this understanding - animist. That's why I agree we can say Daoism (like all chinese traditions) is "rooted in" or "based on" or "participates of" an animist culture. The same applies for  " Fu Xi, Yijing, Hetu, Luoshu, Chinese etymology ".

 

( Again animism is not a better term for "shamanism" it's a basic wordview in which (stuff described as) shamanisms and many other traditions exits. )

Edited February 6, 2016 by Aithrobates

[flowing hands]

 

You lie to cover yourself. And I'm not a friend to people without virtue.

 

I criticize the gibberish you write, you have nothing to answer to my simple questions, just repeating same mistakes over and over. You cannot even provide the name of your school, but telling I'm fake. Not serious.

 

Your experience and practices are not Daoist in its heart, contradict texts and the tradition, and don't lead to basic results marked by Lao Zi as Dao.

 

That's just fact I see out of your insane revelations, "holyman", "immortal shaman", "kungfu champion" and other titles you use, they can't hypnotize me, alas. It doesn't mean the practices I'm questioning don't work, sometimes they are, but the problem is that they don't work towards Dao, and that's you will never understand.

 

There are many Dao schools that are in parallel with what I'm saying. Sad they don't appear here often, though I understand their reasoning... But it doesn't mean I'm alone and "above any learning". There is a lot to learn for anybody, however I'm against the idea to accept any rubbish as a truth. That's my only point in this topic: choose carefully what to practice and from who to learn. Bad experience can stop your practice in this life or can lead you in an opposite direction. That's the mind discipline I'm talking about.

 

And in this topic we could see many interesting examples how the lack of mind discipline make people inattentive, insane and, eventually, crazy and sick. The mind training I've covered lightly is not a "secret practice", it costs you nothing, but as any other training it needs many efforts. Regular practice of any traditional Qigong / Neigong does help, but it cannot substitute the intellectual work needed to be done first. Gifted students have it innate, many people today are not gifted,  but they could practice and attain Dao. Because they could tame their mind and find a balance.

 

 

exactly, so any claims that Lao Zi was a shaman and was surrounded by shamanistic culture have no proofs and substance. It's just a stereotype some shallow people like to stop own progress.

 

 

No, intellectuals don't repeat such popular mistakes: 

 

所行道也從辵從首一達謂之道 (說文解字) 

 

for those who can't read, I have pictures:

 

Dao  "head"    and antlers 

 

Nothing in common. So again no shamans.

 

Last nail in the coffin of this misconception about shamans: the Chinese culture is text based. When something is a root, then terminology, characters etc will be used in the texts of the descendant teaching. There is nothing like that in classic Daoist texts.

 

Idea that Dao De Jing is a "shamanic text" cannot be supported by any researcher, initiated into the Daoist tradition. Minus one myth.

 

Oh dear too much mind training turns one into an inattentive, inaccurate and arrogant person with insane ideas about their own knowledge and abilities, especially when they are quoting how accurate they are and able and how others are "crazy and sick". Seems to me you've slipped up.

 

There is nowhere that I have said in this thread that Lei Erh was a shaman. I have never said I was a Kung Fu champion either. I'm certainly not interested in the slightest in hypnotizing you, or anyone else if it matters; you seem to be beyond accessible teaching in any case. I am not interested in the slightest in your brand of closed and what appears to be blinkered Daoism. I am not interested in your opinion or wasting my time and this will be my last reply to you. You can ridicule who I am, what my title is, what I do etc etc. does not really matter to me. No, I'm not selling my teachings you can't buy them, so no hurt to my rice bowl. I had to prove myself and make myself completely humble to stand for an hour at a time everyday for a year, facing the eastern heaven and begging in my heart for the Immortal masters to come, before the Immortal master would teach me martial art. I have proved beyond your shallow mind games my physical and mental discipline to achieve what I have done in 34 years of training under first Huang Lao Xian Shi, and his bond brothers and then Hau Tuo Xian Shi took over to teach me TCM and different neigong and Qigong. You can say and think what you like the truth will out one way or another. 

[opendao]

Oh dear too much mind training turns one into an inattentive, inaccurate and arrogant person with insane ideas about their own knowledge and abilities, especially when they are quoting how accurate they are and able and how others are "crazy and sick". Seems to me you've slipped up.

 

Nope, I have not. 

 

There is nowhere that I have said in this thread that Lei Erh was a shaman. 

 

Right. And I didn't tell you did tell that. I spoke about shallow people, maybe you recognised yourself... Well, be careful.

 

But definitely for you Jesus was a shaman:

 

Now beleive me or not, many years ago I begged Jesus to come to me. When he came he illuminated a thought that I never consider before. He said to me that he did not like the symbol of the cross used to represent his life. A symbol of torture and pain. He wanted another symbol to signify his life that stood more for what he stood for. He was a shaman also when he was alive.

I have never said I was a Kung Fu champion either. 

 

Lets deal with some common errors that you are making. Shamanism was the beginning of traditional Daoism that is why firstly the yin/yang symbol comes from shamanism. Secondly the very word 'Dao' comes from two pictograms, a shamans head wearing deer antlers and a foot. Being a trained and baptised shaman I can tell you on good authority that Immortals are real, living, energy beings who can materialize themselves at will and I have experienced meetings with such masters in the flesh. What you are talking about as 'Immortals as illusions' is just a particular sect or sects. But many sects of Daoism believe and know the opposite and their practice is all about self cultivation to become an Immortal and to communicate with Immortals and spirits. I have not had a human teacher, yet I have been a nationally awarded Kung Fu master, been a judge at the national championships and my students won medals in the forms. So who taught me? Was it just an illusion? 

 

I beg my pardon, I made a huge mistake: I got used in the sport world that trainer of champions, judge and awarded Kung Fu master has to be a champion, at least once in his career...

 

 I have proved beyond your shallow mind games my physical and mental discipline to achieve what I have done in 34 years of training under first Huang Lao Xian Shi, and his bond brothers and then Hau Tuo Xian Shi took over to teach me TCM and different neigong and Qigong. You can say and think what you like the truth will out one way or another. 

 

Yes, definitely another way then you think. Student who can't understand the treatise of his teacher? Well, it happens in the world of kungfu masters who have never won championships, even in empty forms competitions, but who teach others...

 

The end of shaman-with-antlers circus. Too much attention to somebody's poor ego.

No answers, nothing to speak about. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

I am unable to agree or disagree due to lack of sufficient knowledge.  For me it really doesn't matter anyhow as my interest in Daoism pretty much starts with Lao Tzu.  At one time I did begin looking into the more ancient stuff but I lost interest.

 

fair enough. But to understand Lao Zi one needs to look at what was before. Because there was a lot of similarities, and it can help to understand Lao Zi a lot. Especially Chinese Etymology and historical texts about Huang Di.

 

Indeed, there is no such things as an Animism tradition, with a capital A. Animism or better animist ontology is a concept, but a very clear and precise one, used to describe cultures that sees everything as alive and aware in ways that are just like the way humans are alive and aware.

 

IMO Chinese culture as a whole is - in this understanding - animist. That's why I agree we can say Daoism (like all chinese traditions) is "rooted in" or "based on" or "participates of" an animist culture. The same applies for  " Fu Xi, Yijing, Hetu, Luoshu, Chinese etymology ".

 

( Again animism is not a better term for "shamanism" it's a basic wordview in which (stuff described as) shamanisms and many other traditions exits. )

 

Let's take some examples, so not to speak too abstract. Yijing, 8 trigrams, Preheaven and Postheaven order. What is animism here? It doesn't look for me as animism at all, especially the way you define it through awareness. The energies are not aware the way humans are.

 

If we reduce the definition to only as being "alive", then Yin or Yang, are they alive the way humans are? I don't feel to say it's right.

 

To say that one Qi is everywhere doesn't point to any animistic culture. Because Qi has no "anima" the way we have. We have Hung and Po souls together, does Dao have them this way? Lord Lao? Ghosts-gui or Immortal-Gods-Xian? No, their "construction" is different then ours, very different.

 

Animistic culture is natural evolution of the society when there is no teaching how to overcome the natural flow and turn into Xian. If there is such teaching (China, India, Egypt etc) then animism is fading out and appears only when the celestial teaching disappears.

 

If you really want to see tendencies, think about Cosmos beyond duality and 10000 things. Then it's a world view of the Golden Age ))) Through practice it's possible to feel, maybe somebody can get it through texts...

 

Picture for you to think about:

 

 (it's from Ontario, Canada)

 

It's not animistic culture, IMHO.

Edited February 6, 2016 by opendao

[dawei]

dear Dawei, you made bunch of mistakes, cannot read carefully and now saying I "mix up"? You're talking too much with ghosts it seems, forgot how to listen to normal people. I'm using Daoist terms you don't worry about, but it solely your problem.

 

The problem is I used the word 'Spirit' but also two other terms to reflect the kind of spirits I refer to... you used Spirit as a translation of Gui (which I would translate as Ghost) and you have thereafter kept referring to Gui and Ghost.  You just missed my point of what I referred to which was never ghosts.  

[Taoist Texts]

Stalin has finished and supposed to be an Orthodox priest, does it mean that Stalinism is based on Orthodox Christianity? Obviously not. False lame logic just to fool people. 

These people are not just ignorant. It is fascinating that their opinion is always a 100%, unadulterated opposite of the truth.

 

 To any reasonable person it is obvious that stalinism is based on Russian orthodoxy since the only country in the world where these two ever existed and  succeeded one other is Russia. But a neidaneer, with his unfallible instinct for the false, will pick this example as obvious. Amazing.

[opendao]

These people are not just ignorant. It is fascinating that their opinion is always a 100%, unadulterated opposite of the truth.

 

 To any reasonable person it is obvious that stalinism is based on Russian orthodoxy since the only country in the world where these two ever existed and  succeeded one other is Russia. But a neidaneer, with his unfallible instinct for the false, will pick this example as obvious. Amazing.

 

Again logic problem: if USSR succeeded Russian Empire as a country, it means absolutely nothing about their ideology succession. Go to school, it's annoying to debunk your childish and infinitely aggressive arguing. And read something about the difference between communism in USSR, Orthodox church that were banned and prosecuted in USSR, then about Stalin and his impact (yes, church was prosecuted severely). Damn, sure this anonymous nobody knows the truth, while people learnt the history knows nothing. Buffoon. Your "opinions" about Neidan have the same value as your opinions about history. You just know absolutely nothing. Keep proving it after every post I make.

[Aithrobates]

Let's take some examples, so not to speak too abstract. Yijing, 8 trigrams, Preheaven and Postheaven order. What is animism here? It doesn't look for me as animism at all, especially the way you define it through awareness. The energies are not aware the way humans are.

 

I was basically meaning that Fu Xi, Trigrams, etc... Just like Daoism evolved in an animist background, because Eurasiatic cultures have one. Not that they are "animist" because animism itself does not constitue a school in a culture that as a whole is animist.

 

I would not have formulated that way but I agree with the going beyond animism and turning to Immortality. But to we have to start from somewhere to go beyond that place.

 

The common awareness, life, etc... I'm talking about are of course not the mundane and embodied persons and consciousness we believe we are for some years before meeting death. I'm talking about what we truly are. That, we have in common with all the cosmos.

 

Animist cultures, (specially in the Amazon from where I'll take an illustration), have very sophisticated views, explaining that every beings live in a state of intersubjectivity. We believe we are human and that we eat bread. But the boar sees himself as human too, an sees the bugs he eats as a bread, thickets as houses, etc... (That was the illustration) It's - sadly - not considered like the philosophy it is, but il clearly sates that beings are attached to bodies (when they have one) and and weave illusions by being attracted, particulary interested, or repulsed by things.

 

I'm not saying that evey people in an animist culture are aiming at going beyond that complex web of subjectivity. Just that the consciousness of the illusion is here, and opens the gates for the creation of schools that will work towards this goals. Daoism, Mazdaism, Pythagorism, ..., and many lineages considered "shamanic" because they are from a country considered "shamanic" from the western perspective.

[opendao]

The problem is I used the word 'Spirit' but also two other terms to reflect the kind of spirits I refer to... you used Spirit as a translation of Gui (which I would translate as Ghost) and you have thereafter kept referring to Gui and Ghost.  You just missed my point of what I referred to which was never ghosts.  

 

You referred two related things, and only one you named Spirit. When you talked about Xin. For me it was obviously about Spirit-Shen.

 

For the "light beings" you're visiting every Sunday, you didn't use any terminology as far as I see.

 

But they are not Xian according to your own descriptions and some other signs. If they are not Xian, then they are Gui. Or illusions. Up to you to choose, I really don't care.

 

I used the term "spirits" as a synonym to ghosts, gui etc. And I don't use term "spirits" towards Xian. It's not right.

 

And when I spoke about "not so cool experience" I didn't reply to you at all, so I couldn't "miss your point" or "mix up". So no Dawei, I see no matter for confusion here.

[opendao]

The common awareness, life, etc... I'm talking about are of course not the mundane and embodied persons and consciousness we believe we are for some years before meeting death. I'm talking about what we truly are. That, we have in common with all the cosmos.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems such idea is way behind usual understanding of animistic culture, esp in "primitive" societies ("crib societies" is a better term, not sure if you know it though)... Usual it's just statement like "bear has a spirit, as we have", then action - giving bear gifts, do not use its name, do not think about bear when coming into the forest, bear dance to properly "release" the spirit of the animal after hunting etc. How it's related to Daoism, Hetu, Luoshu, characters and other attributes of Daoist culture? In folk Daoism, various off-roots, late religious Daoism such animistic things exist. But it's because Dao was lost, not because it's something good ))

 

I'm not saying that evey people in an animist culture are aiming at going beyond that complex web of subjectivity. Just that the consciousness of the illusion is here, and opens the gates for the creation of schools that will work towards this goals. Daoism, Mazdaism, Pythagorism, ..., and many lineages considered "shamanic" because they are from a country considered "shamanic" from the western perspective.

 

Right, so basically it's just a stereotype that works good for scientists only, and gives nothing but confusion practically.