According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought All the time?

[Wu Ming Jen]

Our train of thought should move from the center of the compass, shift and change according with balance and harmony of our current situations and be a peace with it. our world view can create harmony or conflict. There is much peace with the words of the great sages like no mention of killing, rape, genocide, us against them, good vs evil and other lovely things that other systems relish and feed off looking for ultimate destruction of armageddon. Thank you great sages for the breath of fresh air.

[MooNiNite]

Train of thought at all times is focused towards the truth

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Stosh]

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Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Jadespear]

Then if that is the case, surely one who has intention to do good is not natural either...

 

By what name or train of thought do you use to fully and totally understand nature?  That is your nature.  Your awareness.  You as the perceiver.  "Desireless you see the mystery"  All labeling of things into any identification of right, wrong, good, evil, is what the mind does according to what has been stored in it, what has been learned, " naming is the origin of the myriad things"  Now let us ask, what do we truely by mean by good and evil?  Taoist  sages hold to the truth of this two sides of reality, of nature, as being relative to one another - not absolute in their own right.  There is no absolute good, or absolute evil.  Because naming things and placing them into a spatial point infers judgement on the temporary - not the eternal.  "The way that can be followed is not the eternal way, the way that can be named is not the eternal name"

 

Nothing is good or evil, thinking only makes it so.  Taoists sages also contemplate, reflect, and assert the true flow of nature as going through two main cycles - the cycle of generation, and the cycle of degeneration - the yang cycle of birth, sustenance, growth and the yin cycle of death, dissolution, and disintegration.  These two cycles happen continuously at every level of everything in the universe within our tiny selves and within the macrocosm of the universe.

 

Few toaist sages ever speak of love.  For love, connotes great attachment, great egoism, the cause of much strife...particularly the notion of loving the good and hating the evil.  Attachment and aversion is a function of a basic part of the universal air element that represents our intellect, whose main purpose, born in desire, is to label and identify to bring balance to our will and our emotion.  To in short plot a course of right thinking in ourselves so that we may live our lives as a true expression of free will. All knowledge is an accumulation, all awareness is the act of being aware.  The unity of the infinite and the eternal is what determines life.  " Always desiring you see the manifestations, desireless you see the mystery.  These two are the same.  This sameness is the mystery, mystery within mystery, the door to all marvels."  

[dawei]

That is lovely but so difficult to achieve.

 

Chuang Tzu did speak to this when he spoke about a mother tiger loving her cubs.

 

The core inner aspect is not just lovely but easy to non-achieve as there is nothing to achieve.. it is just IS-Ness. 

 

Train of thought at all times is focused towards the truth

 

 

Too subjective... forget truth and move beyond such human requirements.

 

Nothing is good or evil, thinking only makes it so.  

 

Yes, I agree with this.

 

Taoists sages also contemplate, reflect, and assert the true flow of nature as going through two main cycles - the cycle of generation, and the cycle of degeneration - the yang cycle of birth, sustenance, growth and the yin cycle of death, dissolution, and disintegration.  These two cycles happen continuously at every level of everything in the universe within our tiny selves and within the macrocosm of the universe.

 

Few toaist sages ever speak of love.  For love, connotes great attachment, great egoism, the cause of much strife...particularly the notion of loving the good and hating the evil.  Attachment and aversion is a function of a basic part of the universal air element that represents our intellect, whose main purpose, born in desire, is to label and identify to bring balance to our will and our emotion.  To in short plot a course of right thinking in ourselves so that we may live our lives as a true expression of free will. All knowledge is an accumulation, all awareness is the act of being aware.  The unity of the infinite and the eternal is what determines life.  " Always desiring you see the manifestations, desireless you see the mystery.  These two are the same.  This sameness is the mystery, mystery within mystery, the door to all marvels."  

 

I think there is a lot of wisdom and insight here... but a partial entrapment to 'this life' and an attempt to interpret it.  Nonetheless, nicely said regarding this 'life'. 

[Marblehead]

The core inner aspect is not just lovely but easy to non-achieve as there is nothing to achieve.. it is just IS-Ness.

But life isn't always that simple.

[dawei]

But life isn't always that simple.

 

Life itself is... your interaction and interpretation of life, is as they say: your mileage may vary.

 

You're separating yourself from life itself.

[Marblehead]

You're separating yourself from life itself.

I just spoke to that in 3bob's "gain/loss" thread.

 

You know I am a Materialist.  I am a separate manifestation.

[Geof Nanto]

I’m no drinker of wine, but I like T’ao Ch’ien’s earthy Daoism.   He lived a simple farming life and was dismissive of any sort of formal practice. In a response to the question, "According to Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi what should be our train of thought all the time?" I suspect he'd offer a hoe to work the fields and share a cup of wine at days end after the work was done. His life entailed much hardship, but he rejoiced in the abundance of the natural world.

 

I

 

Vigor and ruin never stay put. Here, there – all things share in this alike.

Farming melons, how could Shao live anything like that royal life he lost?

 

Cold dies into hot, hot into cold.

It's our Way, too. Nothing is immune.

 

But those who understand it live their lives worry-free. Whenever chance

brings along a jar of wine, they'll take it, all delight as night falls.

 

2

 

The Way's been in ruins a thousand years. People all hoard their hearts

away: so busy scrambling for esteemed position, they'd never touch wine.

 

But whatever makes living precious occurs in this one life, and this

life never lasts. It's startling, sudden as lightning. 

 

These hundred years offer all abundance: Take it!

What more could you make of yourself?

 

(Written around 400 AD and translated by David Hinton.)

Edited January 10, 2016 by Yueya

[Jadespear]

I'd like to point out a possible taoist explanation to the original question in this thread, which was, " what should our thinking be all the time?"

 

And I cite the tao te ching:

 

" In illuminating the entire universe, can you be free of rationality?"

 

...It's quite simple isn't it.  Trust yourself, use your own head to think in a rational sensical way..... if you want to think at all.....

[Geof Nanto]

I'd like to point out a possible taoist explanation to the original question in this thread, which was, " what should our thinking be all the time?"

 

And I cite the tao te ching:

 

" In illuminating the entire universe, can you be free of rationality?"

 

...It's quite simple isn't it.  Trust yourself, use your own head to think in a rational sensical way..... if you want to think at all.....

 

What chapter are you referencing there and whose translation are you using? I suspect a more appropriate translation would use “wisdom” rather than “rationality”.

 

Daoists traditionally do not embrace what us Westerners commonly understand as rationally, in fact they shun it. For instance, the Zhuangzi continually positions rationality as contingent on individual perspective. For Daoists, wisdom resides in understanding rational knowledge is not the way to harmonise oneself with the Dao.  Rather it’s about developing one’s whole being through practice.   This complete embodiment is about integration and participation. It is about being and presence. On a cosmological and theological level, it is about the mysteriousness and numinosity of the Dao manifesting through one's life. It is about becoming an embodiment of the Dao in the world.

 

Daoist practice has included aesthetics, art (e.g. calligraphy, music, painting, and poetry), dietetics, health and longevity practice, meditation, ritual, scripture study, and so forth. The point to be made here is that whatever path Daoists follow, practice is essential. That is, although there are clearly distinctive Daoist worldviews, Daoists have tended to deemphasize belief and doctrine.

 

The importance of practice throughout Daoist history has often been neglected by those who would construct Daoism primarily as "philosophy" or "way of life." This view is especially prominent among readers and interpreters of classical Daoist texts, which are frequently read as about disembodied "ideas" and "ways of thinking." However, if contextualized appropriately and read carefully, one finds that Daoists and Daoist communities are less interested in epistemology (ways of knowing); they tend to be more interested in ontology (ways of being) and soteriology (ways towards the Dao). That is, although worldview, practice, and experience are interrelated, Daoists have tended to place primary emphasis on practice and experience. One cannot understand the views expressed in Daoist texts without understanding the practices that inspired, are informed by and express those views.

 

(Adapted from Louis Komjathy, The Daoist Tradition.)

Edited January 14, 2016 by Yueya

[Jadespear]

What chapter are you referencing there and whose translation are you using? I suspect a more appropriate translation would use “wisdom” rather than “rationality”.

 

Daoists traditionally do not embrace what us Westerners commonly understand as rationally, in fact they shun it. For instance, the Zhuangzi continually positions rationality as contingent on individual perspective. For Daoists, wisdom resides in understanding rational knowledge is not the way to harmonise oneself with the Dao.  Rather it’s about developing one’s whole being through practice.   This complete embodiment is about integration and participation. It is about being and presence. On a cosmological and theological level, it is about the mysteriousness and numinosity of the Dao manifesting through one's life. It is about becoming an embodiment of the Dao in the world.

 

Daoist practice has included aesthetics, art (e.g. calligraphy, music, painting, and poetry), dietetics, health and longevity practice, meditation, ritual, scripture study, and so forth. The point to be made here is that whatever path Daoists follow, practice is essential. That is, although there are clearly distinctive Daoist worldviews, Daoists have tended to deemphasize belief and doctrine.

 

The importance of practice throughout Daoist history has often been neglected by those who would construct Daoism primarily as "philosophy" or "way of life." This view is especially prominent among readers and interpreters of classical Daoist texts, which are frequently read as about disembodied "ideas" and "ways of thinking." However, if contextualized appropriately and read carefully, one finds that Daoists and Daoist communities are less interested in epistemology (ways of knowing); they tend to be more interested in ontology (ways of being) and soteriology (ways towards the Dao). That is, although worldview, practice, and experience are interrelated, Daoists have tended to place primary emphasis on practice and experience. One cannot understand the views expressed in Daoist texts without understanding the practices that inspired, are informed by and express those views.

 

(Adapted from Louis Komjathy, The Daoist Tradition.)

 

 

Whatever dude.  Have fun with that.  Life goes on with or without your participation.  The Tao Te Ching is a rhetorical book meant to engage someone to think for themselves on a deeper level than what is normally considered.   That's the book I was quoting, not other people and their philosophies that came after.  

 

 " In illuminating the whole universe, can you be free of rationality?"  ..... Can you?  That's the real question.  And what does that answer then lead to?  

 

You people think that ways of being are different than ways of thinking, ways of movement... they are the same.  It's not possible to be without radiating, it's not possible to exist without existing.  Which is why the beginning of the Tao Te Ching sets the tone for the whole book in saying. " Every Desiring you see the manifestations, desireless you see the mystery, these two are the same.  This sameness is the mystery, mystery within mystery, the door to all marvels."  Pure being or simply being aware is an activity, albeit of a different quality than thinking, but the sameness between the two is that there is always movement and activity.  There is never nothing in the universe.  Therefore when one " illuminates the whole universe" "being free of rationality" ; to me, means that you are free normal judgemental thinking but a new rationality arises due to the fact that you are illuminating the whole universe.  That you are seeing the truth of things.  It's not saying that the truth of things is rational in a logical sense, because it mostly isn't.  But it is saying to ask yourself if you can see the truth of things and be free of your own rational way of thinking about it, or trying organize and compartmentalize everything.

[Geof Nanto]

@ Jadespear

 

It would help to facilitate discussion if first of all you answer the question I asked: "What chapter are you referencing there and whose translation are you using?"

 

And secondly that you refrain from opening your reply with dismissive insults. 

 

(BTW I actually agree with much of the interpretation of rationality you now give.) 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Yueya

[Marblehead]

What chapter are you referencing there and whose translation are you using? I suspect a more appropriate translation would use “wisdom” rather than “rationality”.

Hehehe.  I would want the word to be "... free of knowledge"

[Geof Nanto]

Hehehe.  I would want the word to be "... free of knowledge"

 

 

I assume Jadespear is referencing chapter 10. If so then yes, 'knowledge' is often used. 

 

Can you love people and govern the country without knowledge?  (Addiss and Lombardo)

 

Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness?  (Flowing Hands)

 

In loving the common people and breathing life into the state, are you able to do it without recourse to wisdom?  (Ames and Hall)

 

But other translators don't even use these thinking related terms, and I like these versions better....

 

        (Zhuanshu 篆文, with Wang Bi Version)

 

(1) Loving (2) the realm (3) and healing (4) the people

(5) can you do (6) without (7) acting (8) now?

 

Can you love the people and rule the land, Yet remain unknown?  (Arthur Waley)

 

Can you love the people and govern the state without interfering? (Sanderson Beck)

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

 

I assume Jadespear is referencing chapter 10. If so then yes, 'knowledge' is often used. 

 

Can you love people and govern the country without knowledge?  (Addiss and Lombardo)

 

Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness?  (Flowing Hands)

 

In loving the common people and breathing life into the state, are you able to do it without recourse to wisdom?  (Ames and Hall)

 

But other translators don't even use these thinking related terms, and I like these versions better....

 

        (Zhuanshu 篆文, with Wang Bi Version)

 

(1) Loving (2) the realm (3) and healing (4) the people

(5) can you do (6) without (7) acting (8) now?

 

Can you love the people and rule the land, Yet remain unknown?  (Arthur Waley)

 

Can you love the people and govern the state without interfering? (Sanderson Beck)

Aside from the word "knowledge" I think Flowing Hands is the closest to the theme and concept that is presented.

 

Generally speaking, knowledge is used by both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to refer to those who have taken man on paths that deviate from the Tao.

[Stosh]

Aside from the word "knowledge" I think Flowing Hands is the closest to the theme and concept that is presented.

 

Generally speaking, knowledge is used by both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu to refer to those who have taken man on paths that deviate from the Tao.

.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Stosh

[Geof Nanto]

My knowledge of Chinese is virtually non-existent and I’m no expert on the Daodejing, so discussions on its details are a learning experience for me.  After posting my previous comment I researched it a little further.

 

Richard Lynn translates the line as “Cherish the people and govern the state: can you do this without intelligence?”  He gives Wang Bi’s  commentary (circa 240 AD):  “Intelligence is concerned with seeking success by using arts and techniques or uncovering what is hidden by plumbing the workings of fate. When vision into the mystery of things is without flaw, it is as if one had repudiated sagehood [sheng]. When one governs the state without intelligence, it is as if he had discarded wisdom¹. ‘Can you do this without intelligence?’ If so the people will not hide, and the state will be governed.”

 

   1. See chapter 19 which reads “Repudiate sagehood and discard wisdom, and the people will benefit a hundredfold.”

 

 

I was a little baffled as to how a reputable translator such as Arthur Waley could come up with such a markedly different version of this line. According to Henricks, the phrase “without using knowledge” at the end of the line in chapter 10 “In understanding all within the four reaches – can you do it without using knowledge”  has a known, in fact, common variant in a number of other Daodejing texts: “without taking action” (wu wei).  

 

For me, what this section is implying is simply a continuation of the pervasive Daodejing theme that if a ruler has great de then all else falls into place 'self so'. And great de has nothing to do with ideas or the intellect in general; hence the well-known Daoist saying “Empty the mind, fill the belly”. 

Edited January 15, 2016 by Yueya

[Brian]

If you have not, Yueya, I recommend reading the verses offered by Shaman Flowing Hands. You might find them worthwhile.

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks. Yes, I have Flowing Hands' version as a pdf file. (For anyone interested, here is the link to Flowing Hands website where you can download his translation of the Daodejing.)

 

I acquired about 10 different Daodejing translations in my early days of fascination with this remarkable text. I was seeking the original definitive meaning but soon realised no such thing existed. However, having all these versions and commentaries for the purpose of cross referencing has certainly proved of great value. There's much I like about Flowing Hands' version - to my mind his translation conveys the 'spirit' of the text - but like I say, I reference all the versions, plus info on the web.

 

What I gained from such study is insight into the general themes of classical Daoism - and these themes resonate at the deepest level with the needs of my psyche.  For me classical Daoism reveals a path to wholeness, to fulfilment. I've heard these old Daoists called masters of satisfaction. And that's what cultivation is about for me; not awakening or enlightenment like Buddhists seek.   

Edited January 17, 2016 by Yueya

[dawei]

I was a little baffled as to how a reputable translator such as Arthur Waley could come up with such a markedly different version of this line. According to Henricks, the phrase “without using knowledge” at the end of the line in chapter 10 “In understanding all within the four reaches – can you do it without using knowledge”  has a known, in fact, common variant in a number of other Daodejing texts: “without taking action” (wu wei).  

 

According to Wagner in his, A Chinese Reading of the Daodejing Wang Bi's Commentary on the Laozi With Critical Text and Translation:

 

To apply [as a ruler] artifices to strive for results, to use devices to seek out [the] secrets [of the lower orders]—this is called “knowledge.”

 

Bertschinger in his Treasuries of the Tao (The TAO-TE CHING with the original Commentaries revealing a relevance to TAOIST YOGA and its PHILOSOPHIES), wrote the Wang Bi notes as:

 

Ordering the country without resorting to being clever is the same as 'renouncing cleverness'. Can you act without being clever?* Then the people will not stray off the path and the country be in order.

[flowing hands]

My thoughts on this are;

 

to be open minded and open hearted.

 

Remember there are no rules, the bending of the tree, the softness of the female and of water.

 

A Daoist dwells in places common folk despise, treats all things equally and holds onto no firm idea other than the Dao. 

[dawei]

My thoughts on this are;

 

to be open minded and open hearted.

 

Remember there are no rules,

 

This reminds me of the scene in the movie Camelot where King Arthur describes how Merlin taught him to 'think'...

 

He states a proposition: It is better to live than die... so why do people engage in wars ?

 

Merlin taught him to take the perspective of an animal...and Arthur describes being a Hawk.  

 

Flying above it all... and looking down, there are no boundaries that exist.  And Arthur goes on to muse that man creates boundaries which simply lead to divisions... and wars...

[Marblehead]

But that Hawk is going to swoop down, kill and eat some defenseless rabbit.