TheExaltedRonin

What is the most popular definition of "oneness" in taoism?

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"Tao gives birth to One" -- Laozi

 

I don't know how popular it is but it is the one most widely known.

 

This one line is sapienti sat to conclude that taoism views "oneness" as a derivative. Tao is not one nor not-one, tao is the mother of all things, including oneness. Tao includes being and nonbeing, oneness and not-oneness, and so on.

 

Indo-European indoctrination often entraps folks into equating tao with this or that kind of oneness they are already at home with -- one true god, one awareness, one mind, whatever they think calls all the ultimate shots. But the moment someone says "something gives birth to oneness," some taoists become acutely interested in that "something" -- much more than in that "oneness" which is merely one wayward son of hers. :D

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Tao is One.

Tao is singular.

 

One engenders Two.

Two is Yin/Yang which is duality.

Edited by ChiDragon
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  On 3/11/2014 at 4:18 AM, TheExaltedRonin said:

So in a broad sense it means no duality?

Not really, because the next line is, "One gives birth to Two," which makes "duality" tao's beloved grandchild, while "one" is her child. It's all in the family. "No duality" is a state that always gives birth to duality, and vice versa. "To and fro goes the Way."

 

Taoist-proper cultivators do not seek nonduality as a destination, they seek freedom to choose. It's like going or not going across the border of one really and truly free country (your dual, taiji, yin-yang self in harmony with tao) to another (your non-dual, wuji self in harmony with tao). You may go on a vacation, you may emigrate permanently, you may repatriate if you have changed your mind... you decide. That's what tao is about. Not oneness and not not-oneness, not duality and not "no duality." It is about freedom though of course it does not "equal" freedom. It does not equal anything but herself, and patterns herself on herself, not on oneness and not on nonduality (neither of which is equal to the whole enchilada.)

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Chapter 39 Tao is Unity or One.
1. Since those who gained Unity:
2. Heaven gained Unity became clear;
3. Earth gained Unity became peaceful;
4. God gained Unity became miraculous;
5. Valley gained Unity became full;
6. All things gained Unity became alive;
7. Rulers gained Unity made world peace.

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Oneness can mean to collect all of one's similar thoughts and questions into one single thread, rather than to express them all in many different threads. This is only one possible meaning of oneness however. :D

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  On 3/11/2014 at 3:53 PM, Stosh said:

Muddy water gained unity , settled out , and lost unity again.

That's because someone keeps shaking the bottle.

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  On 3/11/2014 at 4:54 PM, Marblehead said:

That's because someone keeps shaking the bottle.

Well ,..... Ill agree the bottle is continually shaken. :)

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The concept of non-duality predates Chinese Buddhism in Taoism via Heshang Gong's commentary on the Tao Te Ching. Heshang Gong lived circa 200 BCE.

 

Here is my translation of his commentary on Chapter One, which, you will see, has much to say about non-duality, and a variety of ideas regarding Oneness. I am of the opinion that Oneness is inextricable with De/Divine Virtue, but I have yet to convince too many people of that.

 

(The words in brackets are mine, added for clarification or to show potential insinuation in the text. Insinuation is a common tool in ancient Chinese literature to give more meaning to those who have done their homework ;) )

 

 

 

 

Chapter One: Form of the Dao ้ซ”้“

 

 

้“ๅฏ้“๏ผŒ่ฌ‚็ถ“่ก“ๆ”ฟๆ•™ไน‹้“ไนŸใ€‚

โ€œThe path that can be spoken ofโ€

 

This is referring to classic texts about the Dao of the art of government.

 

้žๅธธ้“ใ€‚้ž่‡ช็„ถ็”Ÿ้•ทไน‹้“ไนŸใ€‚ๅธธ้“็•ถไปฅ็„ก็‚บ้คŠ็ฅž๏ผŒ็„กไบ‹ๅฎ‰ๆฐ‘๏ผŒๅซๅ…‰่—ๆš‰๏ผŒๆป…่ทกๅŒฟ็ซฏ๏ผŒไธๅฏ็จฑ้“

โ€œIs not the enduring pathโ€

 

It is not the way of true nature and long life. The Enduring Dao resembles the non-interference which supports shen/spirit, and the absence of duties which allows the people to be tranquil and peaceful. Savouring Light, and concealing radiance, eliminating the chase, and putting away extremes, (one) cannot give a name to Dao.

 

ๅๅฏๅ๏ผŒ่ฌ‚ๅฏŒ่ฒดๅฐŠๆฆฎ๏ผŒ้ซ˜ไธ–ไน‹ๅไนŸใ€‚

โ€œThe name that can be namedโ€

 

Refers to the most majestic, dignified, and revered, name (that can be thought of or given)

 

้žๅธธๅใ€‚้ž่‡ช็„ถๅธธๅœจไน‹ๅไนŸใ€‚ๅธธๅ็•ถๅฆ‚ๅฌฐๅ…’ไน‹ๆœช่จ€๏ผŒ้›žๅญไน‹ๆœชๅˆ†๏ผŒๆ˜Ž็ ๅœจ่šŒไธญ๏ผŒ็พŽ็މ่™•็Ÿณ้–“๏ผŒๅ…ง้›–ๆ˜ญๆ˜ญ๏ผŒๅค–ๅฆ‚ๆ„š้ ‘ใ€‚

โ€œis not the enduring name,โ€

 

Is not the true nature of the enduring existence of the name. The enduring name is like the baby who has not yet spoken, like baby chicks not yet hatched, like a brilliant jewel in the oysterโ€™s center, beautiful jade that remains within a rock. Though, internally, it is abundantly luminous, externally, it is as though foolish and stubborn.

 

็„กๅ๏ผŒๅคฉๅœฐไน‹ๅง‹ใ€‚็„กๅ่€…่ฌ‚้“๏ผŒ้“็„กๅฝข๏ผŒๆ•…ไธๅฏๅไนŸใ€‚ๅง‹่€…้“ๆœฌไนŸ๏ผŒๅๆฐฃๅธƒๅŒ–๏ผŒๅ‡บๆ–ผ่™›็„ก๏ผŒ็‚บๅคฉๅœฐๆœฌๅง‹ไนŸใ€‚

โ€œFrom that which is without name, Heaven and Earth beganโ€

 

That which is without name, here, means โ€œThe Dao.โ€ The Dao is without form. This is why it cannot be named. In the beginning, there was the root of the Dao, sending forth chi/energy and proliferating the changes in form. The arising of existence (comes from) emptiness and non-existence. The creation of Heaven and Earth has it's roots in this beginning.

 

ๆœ‰ๅ๏ผŒ่ฌ็‰ฉไน‹ๆฏใ€‚ๆœ‰ๅ่ฌ‚ๅคฉๅœฐใ€‚ๅคฉๅœฐๆœ‰ๅฝขไฝใ€ๆœ‰้™ฐ้™ฝใ€ๆœ‰ๆŸ”ๅ‰›๏ผŒๆ˜ฏๅ…ถๆœ‰ๅไนŸใ€‚่ฌ็‰ฉๆฏ่€…๏ผŒๅคฉๅœฐๅซๆฐฃ็”Ÿ่ฌ็‰ฉ๏ผŒ้•ทๅคงๆˆ็†Ÿ๏ผŒๅฆ‚ๆฏไน‹้คŠๅญไนŸใ€‚

โ€œWith name(/appearance), the myriad things are bornโ€

 

โ€œWith (existing) nameโ€ refers to Heaven and Earth. Heaven and Earth are the seat of form. There exists yin and yang, there exists soft and firm, thus there exists Name. The ten thousand things have this as their mother, Heaven and Earth cherish chi and give birth to the ten thousand things. Lasting great completion is ripened, like a mother raises her son.

 

ๆ•…ๅธธ็„กๆฌฒ๏ผŒไปฅ่ง€ๅ…ถๅฆ™๏ผ›ๅฆ™๏ผŒ่ฆไนŸใ€‚ไบบๅธธ่ƒฝ็„กๆฌฒ๏ผŒๅ‰‡ๅฏไปฅ่ง€้“ไน‹่ฆ๏ผŒ่ฆ่ฌ‚ไธ€ไนŸใ€‚ไธ€ๅ‡บๅธƒๅ้“๏ผŒ่ฎšๆ•˜ๆ˜Žๆ˜ฏ้žใ€‚

โ€œAlways without desire, thereby, observing Miao/mysteriousโ€

 

Miao is the essential principle. Men are enduring, effective, and talented (when) without desire. This is the way by which one can observe Dao's Essential Principle. โ€œEssential Principleโ€ means Oneness. Oneness births the proliferation of names, and Dao, praising and making clearly known (the differences between) right and wrong.

 

ๅธธๆœ‰ๆฌฒ๏ผŒไปฅ่ง€ๅ…ถๅพผใ€‚ๅพผ๏ผŒๆญธไนŸใ€‚ๅธธๆœ‰ๆฌฒไน‹ไบบ๏ผŒๅฏไปฅ่ง€ไธ–ไฟ—ไน‹ๆ‰€ๆญธ่ถฃไนŸใ€‚

โ€œAlways with desire, thus, observing the surface.โ€

 

The surface is the reverse. The enduring existence of menโ€™s desires enables the observance of worldly customs and reverses oneโ€™s attention.

 

ๆญคๅ…ฉ่€…๏ผŒๅŒๅ‡บ่€Œ็•ฐๅ๏ผŒๅ…ฉ่€…๏ผŒ่ฌ‚ๆœ‰ๆฌฒ็„กๆฌฒไนŸใ€‚ๅŒๅ‡บ่€…๏ผŒๅŒๅ‡บไบบๅฟƒไนŸใ€‚่€Œ็•ฐๅ่€…๏ผŒๆ‰€ๅๅ„็•ฐไนŸใ€‚ๅ็„กๆฌฒ่€…้•ทๅญ˜๏ผŒๅๆœ‰ๆฌฒ่€…ไบก่บซไนŸใ€‚

[two different ways to read the next line, both meaning essentially the same thing: โ€œThese two come from the same source but have different names,โ€ or]

 

โ€œThis way they are two (attention is divided, and/or, there is separation). The similarities are abandoned and different names cause two (ie., lack of attention on Oneness, and on unity, and causing mental differentiations rather than seeing that all things are united in Dao).โ€

 

The meaning of this is that both, having desires, and not having desires, come from the same source, and that same source is the heart-mind in people. โ€œDifferent names,โ€ here, refers to everything being named (and categorized) differently. Categories which exist without attachment and desires will long exist (not being attached to categories brings longevity). Categories created due to attachments and desires bring death to the body.

 

ๅŒ่ฌ‚ไน‹็Ž„๏ผŒ็Ž„๏ผŒๅคฉไนŸใ€‚่จ€ๆœ‰ๆฌฒไน‹ไบบ่ˆ‡็„กๆฌฒไน‹ไบบ๏ผŒๅŒๅ—ๆฐฃๆ–ผๅคฉไนŸใ€‚็Ž„ไน‹ๅˆ็Ž„๏ผŒๅคฉไธญๅพฉๆœ‰ๅคฉไนŸใ€‚็จŸๆฐฃๆœ‰ๅŽš่–„๏ผŒๅพ—ไธญๅ’Œๆป‹ๆถฒ๏ผŒๅ‰‡็”Ÿ่ณข่–๏ผŒๅพ—้Œฏไบ‚ๆฑก่พฑ๏ผŒๅ‰‡็”Ÿ่ฒชๆทซไนŸใ€‚

โ€œSimilarly in speaking of Xuan, the profound depthโ€

 

Xuan/profound depth (refers to) Sky/Heaven. Words exist with human desires. Following the absence of human desires is similar to the receiving of chi/energy/mist in the Sky/Heaven.

 

็Ž„ไน‹ๅˆ็Ž„๏ผŒๅคฉไธญๅพฉๆœ‰ๅคฉไนŸใ€‚็จŸๆฐฃๆœ‰ๅŽš่–„๏ผŒๅพ—ไธญๅ’Œๆป‹ๆถฒ๏ผŒๅ‰‡็”Ÿ่ณข่–๏ผŒๅพ—้Œฏไบ‚ๆฑก่พฑ๏ผŒๅ‰‡็”Ÿ่ฒชๆทซไนŸใ€‚

โ€œDepth of increasing depthโ€

 

Heaven balances and returns substance to Heaven. In chi there is thick and thin. Obtaining balance and harmony, liquid is multiplied. The reason and rule of life is virtuousness (xian) and wisdom. With error there is chaos, impurity, and abuse. (With) life there is greed and obscenity.

 

็œพๅฆ™ไน‹้–€ใ€‚่ƒฝไน‹ๅคฉไธญๅพฉๆœ‰ๅคฉ๏ผŒ็จŸๆฐฃๆœ‰ๅŽš่–„๏ผŒ้™คๆƒ…ๅŽปๆฌฒๅฎˆไธญๅ’Œ๏ผŒๆ˜ฏ่ฌ‚็Ÿฅ้“่ฆไน‹้–€ๆˆถไนŸใ€‚

โ€œThe door to many mysteries/Miaoโ€,

 

The talent of Heaven is to balance, and return repeatedly, substance to Heaven, allowing chi/energy/mist to be thick and thin. Eliminate sentiment, banish desire, conserve balance and harmony. This is correctly called "the open door of knowing the Dao's Essential Principle."

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  On 3/13/2014 at 3:31 AM, Harmonious Emptiness said:

Here is my translation of his commentary on Chapter One, which, you will see, has much to say about non-duality, and a variety of ideas regarding Oneness. I am of the opinion that Oneness is inextricable with De/Divine Virtue, but I have yet to convince too many people of that.

 

I noticed years ago (Wade-Giles times) that "Te" can be found in "inTEgrity." ^_^

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My understanding...

 

Always there are three: yin, yang, and the deeper level that lies betwixt and between. Perhaps this is no exception. Duality, non-duality and the deeper level betwixt and between.

 

Liminal

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  On 3/13/2014 at 8:58 PM, Taomeow said:

I noticed years ago (Wade-Giles times) that "Te" can be found in "inTEgrity." ^_^

Do you think any English word that has TE is relevant to character Te(ๅพท).

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  On 3/13/2014 at 10:13 PM, ChiDragon said:

Do you think any English word that has TE is relevant to character Te(ๅพท).

 

Are you trying to chi_DRAG_ON a pun?

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  On 3/13/2014 at 8:58 PM, Taomeow said:

I noticed years ago (Wade-Giles times) that "Te" can be found in "inTEgrity." ^_^

 

I made a comment a while ago, when considering possibilities between "notions of God" (not necessarily "God" but the notions that are ascribed therewith) and DE that perhaps the word we're looking for is

 

..

 

..

 

 

DE-ity?

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  On 3/13/2014 at 10:26 PM, Taomeow said:

Are you trying to chi_DRAG_ON a pun?

 

I was trying to follow your logic from pinyin of a character to the letters of an English word which has no direct relationship. I am trying to figure out how did you arrive to that conclusion.

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  On 3/13/2014 at 10:41 PM, ChiDragon said:

I was trying to follow your logic from pinyin of a character to the letters of an English word which has no direct relationship. I am trying to figure out how did you arrive to that conclusion.

 

This logic is called "a pun." Comprehension of puns requires proficiency in the language in which they are executed. This may (as in my example of "Te in inTEgrity") include proficiency in this language's rules of engagement with other languages when phonetically, grammatically, semantically, etc., transporting their original notions. There's a whole bunch of linguistic terms applied to this process of one language acquiring words of another into its own circulation, different for different types of such acquisitions.

 

E.g., the original spelling of my name is ะขะฐะพะผััƒ, while Taomeow is a Romanization following standard rules of rendering Cyrillic words readable to English speakers. Once it has been Romanized, a foreign word can then be used by all English speakers in accordance with the rules of the English grammar, lexicology, semantics, stylistics, phonetics and so on. E.g., these rules allow them to make a verb out of it following standard English grammatical protocols existing for the purpose -- as in, "she taomeowed her dissent;" or an adjective should it please them -- "that was a taomeowy post;" and so on. No limits on creative applications provided certain rules and patterns are followed that would make these creative applications recognizable and comprehensible to native or proficient speakers of English.

 

With this in mind (and with my reference to Wade-Giles as an aside), go back to my pun and give it another try.

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  On 3/13/2014 at 10:30 PM, Harmonious Emptiness said:

I made a comment a while ago, when considering possibilities between "notions of God" (not necessarily "God" but the notions that are ascribed therewith) and DE that perhaps the word we're looking for is

 

..

 

..

 

 

DE-ity?

 

Maybe. :) But there's so many deities in taoism... one would have to be prepared to have the answer to "WHICH DE-ity?" -- are you? :D

While "inTEgrity" seems to express what De/Te is all about... It is a "virtue," but not something that can be separated from the bearer of this virtue, you can't "have" integrity without "being" unified onto yourself, equal to yourself, rather than to any part of yourself. And that's tao. That's the only thing that has complete inTEgirty. So I tend to agree with your equating te/de and unity in taoism.

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Related to INTEGRITY

These things are all fabrications of a human egoic-mind , they depend upon a dualistic view of the world., and so therefore I dont see them as appropriate associations ( either in a positive or inversely so manner ) to the theme of Tao.

 

The abstraction of good brings its attendant logical inverse ,,evil ,, such dualism is denounced by the philosophy.

 

You also cant spell hate without t and e , ,or destroy without d and e , and t e and d arent chinese characters ...

so associating those terms with characteristics of Taoist thought may be witty and fun ,, but really constitutes a bogus logical process.

IMO

So the reader is left with a choice , smart funny pleasant and completely wrong , VS , smart dry difficult and actually correct.

Edited by Stosh
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Te is integrity, it is a virtue of the highest, Te is a power of the highest.

Te is sincerity, highest sincerity,

probably a coincidence that sincerity contains t and e. contains sin too, haha

Te is also authentic, there is that t and e again,,

 

"So the reader is left with a choice , smart funny pleasant and completely wrong , VS , smart dry difficult and actually correct."

I am glad I don't limit myself to such a narrow choice. (even if they are both 'smart' choices)

I never claimed to be smart, I will opt for another choice>>subjectivity (in nature)

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  On 3/14/2014 at 1:27 PM, zerostao said:

Te is integrity, it is a virtue of the highest, Te is a power of the highest.

Te is sincerity, highest sincerity,

probably a coincidence that sincerity contains t and e. contains sin too, haha

Te is also authentic, there is that t and e again,,

 

"So the reader is left with a choice , smart funny pleasant and completely wrong , VS , smart dry difficult and actually correct."

I am glad I don't limit myself to such a narrow choice. (even if they are both 'smart' choices)

I never claimed to be smart, I will opt for another choice>>subjectivity (in nature)

More proof of the pudding my pleasant man, smart funny pleasant wrong.

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  On 3/13/2014 at 10:41 PM, ChiDragon said:

I was trying to follow your logic from pinyin of a character to the letters of an English word which has no direct relationship. I am trying to figure out how did you arrive to that conclusion.

 

  On 3/14/2014 at 12:14 PM, Stosh said:

 

You also cant spell hate without t and e , ,or destroy without d and e , and t e and d arent chinese characters ...

 

That was what I am trying to say earlier; and you took the words right out of my mouth.

Edited by ChiDragon

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