Zazen, Dazuo(打坐), and Meditation

[ChiDragon]

These three terms are in three different languages. Theoretically, these three terms are suppose to have the same basic meaning. However, due the difference in each linguistic interpretation, the basic meaning of the terms have been altered and diverged quite drastically.

Was there really a language problem or something got lost in the translation or misinformed from one or the other in the first place.....???

Anyone wants to give it a shot....???

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

During zazen, breathe through your nose and keep your mouth closed. (If you have a cold, or some kind of a nasal blockage, its okay to breathe through your mouth.) The tongue is pressed lightly against the upper palate—swallow once, to create a seal and reduce the need to salivate and swallow. The eyes are kept lowered, with your gaze resting on the ground about two or three feet in front of you. Your eyes will be mostly covered by your eyelids, which eliminates the necessity to blink repeatedly. The chin is slightly tucked in. Although zazen looks very disciplined, the muscles should be soft. There should be no tension in the body. It doesn’t take strength to keep the body straight. The nose is centered in line with the navel, the upper torso leaning neither forward nor back.


Ref:
Zazen

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I have notice that the definition of "meditation" was interpreted based in western thoughts with oriental pictorial Zazen illustrations. It seems to me that the western idea had left out the most significant criteria, breathing, in meditation. Thus that had cleared my mind why some practitioners said that meditation didn't work for them and quit.


Ref: Meditation without the emphasis on the breathing exercise

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

打坐，是一种养生健身法。闭目盘膝而坐，调整气息出入，手放在一定位置上，不想任何事情。打坐又叫“盘坐”、“静坐”。道教中的一种基本修练方式。在佛教 中叫“禅坐”或“禅定”，是佛教禅宗必修的。盘坐又分自然盘和双盘、单盘。打坐既可养身延寿，又可开智增慧。在中华武术修炼中，打坐也是一种修炼内功，涵 养心性，增强意力的途径。打坐的特点是“静”，“久静则滞，久动则疲”。因此，打坐结束后，要活动筋骨，如：打拳、舞剑、踢毽、自我按摩等等，做到“动静 结合”。

 

 

Translation of the phrases as shown in red:

Dazuo is a method to preserve life and enhancing the physical body. Sitting at lotus position with the eyes closed; regulating the breath in and out; placing the hands in a definite location and not thinking about anything..........

 

Translation in blue:

Dazuo is also called "dish sitting", "quiet sitting". It is a basic method of cultivation in the Tao religion. In Buddhism, it is called "zen sitting" or "zen steadfast". Dish sitting has natural sitting(自然盘), single sitting(单盘, half lotus), double sitting(双盘, full lotus). Dazuo can preserve the body and extend its life. It can open up and develop one's wisdom. In the practice of Chinese Wu Shu, Dazuo is a method to cultivate Neigong. It is a route to enhance one's mental health. The special characteristic of Dazuo is "stillness". "Sitting too long become stagnant, being too active become fatigue". Hence, after Dazuo, one needs to motivate the tendons and bones by performing Gong Fu, sword dance, or self massage, etc, to accomplish the "integration of stillness and action".

 

 

Note:

When one was talking about Dazuo, it is very important to keep "regulating the breath in and out" in mind; and it is a must.

 

Ref: Dazuo(打坐)

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[adept]

The people who actually practice zazen, whether in Zen temples, centres, in the comfort of their own homes or sitting perched on a rock out in nature, are far closer to the Dao than anyone who drags articles from the Internet or argues about semantics.

[NotVoid]

I have notice that the definition of "meditation" was interpreted based in western thoughts with oriental pictorial Zazen illustrations. It seems to me that the western idea had left out the most significant criteria, breathing, in meditation. Thus that had cleared my mind why some practitioners said that meditation didn't work for them and quit.

Hello ChiDragon. It appears to me that confusion and misunderstanding are universal. At least I have not encountered any dividing line between east and west. If we are relaxed and natural, then the breathing will naturally become soft, natural and deep. What is natural may change of its own accord and at its own time. We only need to relax and keep as natural as we can manage. My teacher called it da zuo, but that is just a name. The simple principles also seem universal.

[Rara]

 

 

Translation of the phrases as shown in red:

Dazuo is a method to preserve life and enhancing the physical body. Sitting at lotus position with the eyes closed; regulating the breathing in and out; placing the hands in a definite location and not thinking about anything..........

 

 

 

Ref: Dazuo(打坐)

Do we have proof that half or full lotus has any impact on health? Or can we assume this is dogma in spirituism as a way to show off?

 

I can sit in full lotus, but if I'm in it for long enough, I lose circulation. Everyone must.

 

Feet on the ground, sat upright on a chair, causes less discomfort. Which posture makes more sense from the outset?

[de_paradise]

Zazen is da chan in Chinese, while da zuo is the same but seems to have a broader meaning. Most people dont know the difference because Chan or zen is so popular and perhaps sets the social standard for what proper meditation is. Zazen is supposed to be boring and somewhat uncomfortable in order to stress the mind, and its meant to go with the other zen trainings that are similar. This leads to what Chogyam Trungpa characterizes as flashes of prajna. Other ways to da zuo or sit and meditate are not as harsh as zen, use different strategy to make progress.

 

This is my understanding, which I sometimes have to explain because I meditate in bed and it looks as if I am lazing and not meditating or da zuo at all.

[Marblehead]

Yes, we need to breathe. That's important.

[C T]

 

Feet on the ground, sat upright on a chair, causes less discomfort.

The above posture is as good as any. Too much focus on external postures defeats the aim of developing the mindfulness habit, which is necessary as a precursor to reaching a state absent of distraction, regardless whether thoughts arise or not.

 

Empty mind does not imply a mind devoid of thoughts. This is a common misunderstanding, especially among novice meditators. What it basically means is to first recognize the space-like nature of mind, empty, yet full of clear awareness. This recognition, when stabilized, is what allows peace, stillness, serenity and tranquility to be seen clearly, as natural manifestations of a mind free of craving. These are not external fruits to be searched for, nor are they gradual goals to be attained, for they are not outside one's true nature. What is gradual is the process of uncovering them, dissolving the layers of delusion, and this is where correct understanding and practice of meditation enter into the path, to reward the persistent practitioner with an equanimous poise, one undisturbed by change, full of mental discipline, virtuous, and always unseparated from the Way of Reality.

[Jetsun]

Yes, we need to breathe. That's important.

 

Yeah, but are we breathing or is life breathing us?

[Marblehead]

Yeah, but are we breathing or is life breathing us?

Fair question to consider.

 

Breathing should be natural and spontaneous. Some people even call our breath our Chi. Granted, without life there is no breathing. The breathing of the universe. (That just came to mind - I have no idea what it means.)

 

And yes, our breathing will alternate between shallow and deep, between rapid and slow. Life conditions should dictate this and not our forced intentions.

[ChiDragon]

I see some of you already have made up your minds and came to a conclusion before the presentation of this thread was completed.

Btw In the process of the Dual Cultivation of the Xing and Ming(DCXM), this is not the way how I was taught. In the cultivation of Xing(mind), one must have a clear conscience and evaluate matters objectively. Don't you think it would be a little hasty to come to a conclusion before the case was heard....???

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

Who was your teacher, CD?

[ChiDragon]

Who was your teacher, CD?

 

Self taught by following the concepts from reading all the good books and good source of information. They are much better than any teacher there was. You are not going to hold that against me, are you.....???

 

 

Edited to add:

Self discipline and cultivation. Absorption and digestion in the course of learning from reliable sources.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Brian]

Self taught by following the concepts from reading all the good books and good source of information. They are much better than any teacher there was. You are not going to hold that against me, are you.....???

Edited to add:

Self discipline and cultivation.

No, not at all.

 

I noticed the phrase "this is not the way how I was taught" and it piqued my curiosity-- that's all.

 

BTW, the word "how" shouldn't be in that phrase. Reading it didn't bother me but typing it was almost painful.

[ChiDragon]

No, not at all. I noticed the phrase "this is not the way how I was taught" and it piqued my curiosity-- that's all. BTW, the word "how" shouldn't be in that phrase. Reading it didn't bother me but typing it was almost painful.

 

I see, thanks for your thoughtfulness. I always do need a good English teacher to be by my side to help me though. Now, that is something hard for me to be self-taught without a good teacher. Thanks.

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Brian]

 

I see, thanks for your thoughtfulness. I always do need a good English teacher to be by my side to help me though. Now, that is something hard for me to be self-taught without a good teacher. Thanks.

I think you do very well with your English, CD, and I have noticed improvement over the years as a result of practice! The fundamental and conceptual differences between Chinese and English are profound.

[ChiDragon]

Do we have proof that half or full lotus has any impact on health? Or can we assume this is dogma in spirituism as a way to show off?

 

I can sit in full lotus, but if I'm in it for long enough, I lose circulation. Everyone must.

 

Feet on the ground, sat upright on a chair, causes less discomfort. Which posture makes more sense from the outset?

 

From some reliable sources, half or full lotus has no impact on one's health. There are few positions in the method of lotus sitting.

The reason that some people can only do half lotus is because of their limited physical ability. The thing which have impact on one's health is really depends on the method of breathing. Please pay close attention to this thread, you will be hearing a lot about breathing. Yes, sitting on a chair causes less discomfort which has the same health effect as long as one breathes. Btw The breathing method is known to the Chinese as Chi Kung(氣功). You will be hearing that soon as well.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rara]

 

From some reliable sources, half or full lotus has no impact on one's health. There are few positions in the method of lotus sitting.

The reason that some people can only do half lotus is because of their limited physical ability. The thing which have impact on one's health is really depends on the method of breathing. Please pay close attention to this thread, you will be hearing a lot about breathing. Yes, sitting on a chair causes less discomfort which has the same health effect as long as one breathes. Btw The breathing method is known to the Chinese as Chi Kung(氣功). You will be hearing that soon as well.

Oh sure, I know about Chi Kung and the importance of breathing. I just like to challenge the dogma of "you must sit this way"

[Rara]

I think you do very well with your English, CD, and I have noticed improvement over the years as a result of practice! The fundamental and conceptual differences between Chinese and English are profound.

I can feel the love in the room tonight!

 

I like seeing open compliments

[ChiDragon]

Well, after all, this is a Taoist environment. The people will say: "this is Ziren".

@Rara...
Please go back to Post #4, if you like, and read the translation in blue about the lotus sitting positions.

Edited March 11, 2014 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

The breathing of the universe. (That just came to mind - I have no idea what it means.)

There's hope for you yet…

[doc benway]

 

Self taught by following the concepts from reading all the good books and good source of information. They are much better than any teacher there was.

 

Quoted for posterity…

 

 

I disagree. One good teacher is more valuable to the sincere student than every book ever written, in my opinion.