Mind Control in the Martial Arts

[Unseen_Abilities]

Projections from my Subconscious aside for the moment, it could bode well to be careful, to a point, in the Martial Arts...You see some people get so dogmatic/fanatical about their teacher/style - Sometimes to an unnatural/unhealthy level.

 

I'm considering leaving Aikido after all, hah.

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brainwashing.htm

 

Worth thinking about.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Unseen_Abilities

[thelerner]

Here's what I learned from a biography on Buckminister Fuller, a modern renaissance man. To become excellent at something you have to be a bit fanatical. Give your all, sacrifice for it. Even when its something partly foolish. Become a true believe (hopefully not the insufferable kind who thinks everyone Else must do the same).

 

The other side of that is knowing when to give it up. Walk away.. you've plumbed the depths, lived it but sayonarra.

 

The teacher sets the tone for the class. If there's not a good jibe, its hard.

[Nungali]

Projections from my Subconscious aside for the moment, it could bode well to be careful, to a point, in the Martial Arts...You see some people get so dogmatic/fanatical about their teacher/style - Sometimes to an unnatural/unhealthy level.

 

I'm considering leaving Aikido after all, hah.

 

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brainwashing.htm

 

Worth thinking about.

 

 

Please explain more ... what was happening and why do you want to leave?

 

I ask as I had similar experience (but didnt relate any of it to 'brain washing' ) .... one club - Aikido, drove me a bit nuts, but that was the way the teacher did things. ... another Aikido club I was in years ago was GREAT! The one before that ... mmmeh ... My current club (not Aikido ) is good for what I learned but the teachers approach drives me nuts at times.

 

So .... was'up ?

[doc benway]

It's good to exercise caution.

Check out Ki Master vs MMA and Lama Dorje…

Funny stuff.

[Unseen_Abilities]

Hey Nungali, to be honest I had an experience very recently where it felt as if I was being energetically coerced to give up my mind for Aikido - I felt this exact thing when I was part of a Christian church for a while a few years back. However, I'm sceptical of this experience, given that I'm doing a lot of healing from serious stuff at the moment - When healing deep issues, I think they can show up again in the mind as they're getting healed at the deeper level, my mind could have just been confusing things (it could have showed up with Aikido as a result of me recently working on issues I had with Christianity) - I feel great now...I've become a little jaded about following any kind of master though.

 

I will say, however, at the Tomiki club I was at, I definitely noticed some subtle manipulation - Little digs here and there about certain things, like the fact I'm a Musician, telling me I should get a job when leaving the Dojo...There was a mildly autistic high school student who I trained with at this place, and he didn't really get treated how he should have been - There weren't signs of straight out abuse, just being quite harsh to the guy, given his condition.

 

I'm quite stubborn as well, so I take less kindly to being ordered around than some people.

[Nungali]

I see. It might help to distinguish the types of Aikido there are first ... then look at some 'interior dynamic' ; I dont mean Ki and application of techniques - I mean a type of interior 'political' dynamics in Aikido, and indeed, in many Japanese style Martial Arts. Its not so much a process of 'brainwashing' but a culture of 'conformance' ... and one has to understand a bit of Japanese culture to navigate through that. However if it is club that is in a western influence as well, it may be all mixed up with ... whatever ... mine was ... to an extent ... and in some cases the instructor didnt have a clue about that, and in other cases if they did it was considered a taboo discussion.

 

First: Tomiki ... this might be a bit less biased; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodokan_Aikido

 

There is also Aiki kai (one of the two types I did) ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikikai

 

and also, variations within the style : " Kazuo Chiba has implied that the style of training in Hombu concentrated less on physical rigor because of its demographic:

"A large portion of the membership at

Iwama Dojo

consisted of local farmers, hard workers who spent all day in the fields. They had thick bones and great physical strength, combined with a peculiar local character known as “Mito kishitsu,” a type of manliness close to gallantry. Altogether, it was quite an opposite culture from Hombu Dojo in Tokyo. Because it is in the capital of Japan, Hombu’s membership consists of white-collar workers, intellectuals, businessmen, politicians and university students."

 

Also, generally, the 2nd process relates a lot to ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_language#Politeness see 5.3.

 

One does NOT say ... "You look fat." but "it is good to see you are eating well." Nor is it proper to ask a Japanese style teacher; "Sensai, I dont understand, how can this technique be followed by the next? If I flick sand into my opponents face with the tip of my Eku, he must be far enough away to do so, and out of range of the next technique which is, as you say a front kick. If it is close enough for a kick , my Ecu is too long to use that way?"

 

The answers can range from ( that is, if you get a chance to finish the question); that was what I was taught, Oh, 'they' always come up with something , who have you been training with ??? ! .... Oh, I never thought of that, they aren't meant to be consecutive or applied together (even though I have been saying they were, etc )

 

Also the concept of Honne and Tatemae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

 

which could appear as type of 'linguistic - washing'

 

Also Japanese arts have changed greatly; pretty hard-core pre- WWII, often linked with political or military movements pre and during WWII, which of course had to change at the end of the war ( eg. a word that means something very different in Ueshiba's writings on Aikido was 're-interpreted' to mean 'love' (by his son I think ? ) after WWII, thus changing a philosophical principle of Aikido into a spiritual, or nearly a religious one (It was greatly mixed up with this previously - some of Ueshiba's writings on finally 'triumphing' with sword relate to the apparition that appeared in his garden at night ... that he used to fight , then realising it was a Kami ... and then ( you might be interested in relation to yours @ http://thetaobums.com/topic/34076-feeding-your-demons/ ) an aspect of himself.

 

I know very few people who would even want to discuss things like that ... anyway, to continue, post WWII, , the victors ask the defeated Japanese to teach them their secret fighting techniques (Whaaat ? ... Oh well, I have to feed the remains of my family somehow ) , (and remember Karate was introduced into Japan from Okinawa as a primary School physical education programme), and then it got turned into a sport, with all sorts of rules.

 

There are people that study it, from a qualified scholars perspective (so just dont take my word for it) . For Aikido try Peter Goldsbury - (b. 28 April 1944). Aikido 6th dan Aikikai, Professor at Hiroshima University, teaching philosophy and comparative culture; ' Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation ... http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12008&highlight=Emulation (you might have to register to get access) and ' 'Sincere' Attacks: A Platonic Dialogue by Peter Goldsbury' http://www.aikiweb.com/columns/pgoldsbury/2006_11.html

 

But, aside from those that penetrate these mysteries and can speak on the subject most have a mix of the two language styles. This can be extended to a level where no one seems to be saying what they mean and unless you are good at observing and knowing on a whole range of levels one wont get the message. Instead of a direct message (outside of technique and practice ) they may be a whole lot of inferences and 'strange seeming' behaviour - as I said, especially when westerners try to do that. In some cases they may avoid as they themselves do not know something, as it wasn't considered proper to ask certain questions or get 'unusual' answers when they did and gets passed on in a revolving wheel of weird karma .... until someone tries to break it ..... but that would be a very rude and typically Gaijun thing to do

 

Ed: sorry if this is a bit over referenced, in the past here I have been slandered about my knowledge and opinion of such things .... just so you know I am not making it up

Edited March 15, 2014 by Nungali

[Unseen_Abilities]

Nungali, I don't have the time to give a detailed reply at the moment, but thanks for yours...I spoke to somebody once who told me "The greater the light, the greater the shadow", she was saying the further along we get/the more we improve ourselves, the more our inner saboteur is likely to rear its ugly head. I understand your point about conformity in Japanese culture - On a personal level, I'm quite anti-conformity (at least for myself in my life) so I have to learn to put that aside at the Dojo...Like I said, I'm doing some deep healing work at the moment, coming to terms with my own subconscious, my own intense energy/psychology - My mind cannot grasp the depth of my experiences.

 

I'm out, catchya laterrrrrrrrrr....

[Rara]

That's the Catch 22 (used that phrase twice in two days!)

 

Discipline and conforming is a huge part of martial arts.

 

What about the BS side of it? By then it's too late.

 

And the who are the real BS'ers? Who speaks the truth?

 

I personally don't feel it needs to get so deep. If you get what you need out of where you're going, that's great. If not, then time to leave.

[Rara]

We all conform to an extent in everyday life. Some more than others. That's why I don't talk loudly in the cinema lol.

 

If you found a place that suits you, you will happily conform...if you catch my drift.

[Nungali]

...Like I said, I'm doing some deep healing work at the moment, coming to terms with my own subconscious, my own intense energy/psychology - My mind cannot grasp the depth of my experiences.

 

I'm out, catchya laterrrrrrrrrr....

 

 

Okay then ... but I thought this was more about 'mind control in the martial arts' ? Perhaps for you its more about 'self mind control ' ? Good luck

[Nungali]

That's the Catch 22 (used that phrase twice in two days!)

 

Discipline and conforming is a huge part of martial arts.

 

What about the BS side of it? By then it's too late.

 

And the who are the real BS'ers? Who speaks the truth?

 

I personally don't feel it needs to get so deep. If you get what you need out of where you're going, that's great. If not, then time to leave.

 

I get your point, but for me its too 'cut and dried'.

 

Basically this is a field of 'relationship'. What if you have a bit of what you need ... and you see a glimmering of more ahead but some obstacles in the way? Is it time to leave then ... is it valid to see a whole range of potentially good people thinking its 'time to leave' because of unexplained and weird obstacles that pop up that they dont understand?

 

My teacher came to the 'truth' (well, A truth , that worked for us) ... eventually frustrated with the point about the sand the Eku and the 'kick' he finally asked "Okay then " (you annoying little bastard ) "what's YOU'RE take on it?'

 

' If the kick is interpreted instead, as the same movement in step 2 of the first Eku Kata (flicking sand into opponents face with foot), it can work; you flick sand with Eku and I turn my head or close my eyes to protect them ... meanwhile you are following up with a second sand flick with the foot and as I turn back or open my eyes I cop an eye full." ...... Instructor thinks .... .... 'Hey guys! I think Nungali worked it out ... THIS is THE application ! "

 

Me; "No ... its AN application ." (he's a cool instructor, he puts up with me quiet well and rarely 'accidentally ' smacks me in the head anymore .

 

One before that, back in the past, didnt even allow questions

[Unseen_Abilities]

I made this thread, it's about what I want it to be about at any given time, I don't conform to forum "norms"...call me Beatnik, I don't care, square.

 

I agree, if you're getting what you want then good, if not then time to go...honestly, most Martial Arts schools are probably pretty "safe" from a mind control perspective - I've just seen, online and in person a few times, people become a little bit too dogmatic/fanatical about their teacher/style...I think there's no single best way, and I have compassion for people who get caught up in mind control situations of any kind, having been attuned to that kind of thing before myself - It grinds my gears.

[Unseen_Abilities]

What style are you learning now, Nungali?

[Nungali]

yep ... personally dont mind threads that go all over the place ... just like a real conversation

 

Its called Matsamura Seito Shorin Ryu (from Okinawa) .... there are lots of Shorin Ryu but this is unique in that 'Seito' means family tradition ; to go backwards through the teacher hierarchy ; my instructor , ( and his teacher was ), Mr. Kosei Nishihira (try googling him), Hohan Soken (last samurai -according to Guinness Book of records an interesting Master with an interesting history), Nabe Matsamura , Bushi Matsamura - or Matsamura Sokon( official body guard to the last 2 Okinawan Kings) . It was a family tradition with ' Menkyo kaiden' . [ All of them can be looked up ]

 

 

Professionally (as the KIng's body guard) that system ('palace style') devolved (after the Line of Okinawan Kings was suppressed and disbanded by Japan) into what Funakoshi imported into Japan as 'Karate' ( a very different thing from Seito).

Seito is a 'family' tradition based more on 'self ' defense (or defense of the parents, family home and self) as opposed to (potentially reckless and self-sacrificing) defence of the King.

 

Pre Karate , the art has many more takedowns, locks, throws, varied environment ( night fighting , stealth, uneven ground, utilizing obstacles and surprise tactics) eg. see Mr. Nishihira here :

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nishihira_Sensei_-_Okinawa_2003.png ...

 

ONE application is ' night fighting kata' - positioning in environment - keeping below viewers horizon, while lowering yours (then you can see the other silhouetted against the night sky) other 'strange movements' in karate katas, that don't seem to make sense , come to light when one considers the people and their environment and times the art was developed in (e.g. the sand flicking in Eku and certain empty hand forms comes from a fisherman's environment ), other unusual forms in Karate originate from palace style ... designed to protect and evacuate the king in specific architectural environments - his receiving hall in the palace for example (like Chinto Kata, developed by Bushi Matsamura after fighting with a Chinese pirate he could not defeat {so made friends with him instead} ... it makes little sense unless one considers a specific fighting environment ... like on board -or boarding a ship ).

 

Anyway ... its all finished now Mr Nishihira never passed on Menkyo kaiden ... it had to be in the family tradition and there was no heir ... so all over now (although their might be claimants) . Its all about the new wave and marketing nowadays.... hope they can make sense out of it all. Some are trying ( but still missing the key ingredient)

 

; http://www.amazon.com/Shotokans-Secret-Expanded-Edition-Fighting-Material/dp/0897501888

 

but they totally ignore the Seito side of things (well, it IS Shotokan )

Edited March 16, 2014 by Nungali

[Unseen_Abilities]

Nice!

[Rara]

 

I get your point, but for me its too 'cut and dried'.

 

Basically this is a field of 'relationship'. What if you have a bit of what you need ... and you see a glimmering of more ahead but some obstacles in the way? Is it time to leave then ... is it valid to see a whole range of potentially good people thinking its 'time to leave' because of unexplained and weird obstacles that pop up that they dont understand?

 

My teacher came to the 'truth' (well, A truth , that worked for us) ... eventually frustrated with the point about the sand the Eku and the 'kick' he finally asked "Okay then " (you annoying little bastard ) "what's YOU'RE take on it?'

 

' If the kick is interpreted instead, as the same movement in step 2 of the first Eku Kata (flicking sand into opponents face with foot), it can work; you flick sand with Eku and I turn my head or close my eyes to protect them ... meanwhile you are following up with a second sand flick with the foot and as I turn back or open my eyes I cop an eye full." ...... Instructor thinks .... .... 'Hey guys! I think Nungali worked it out ... THIS is THE application ! "

 

Me; "No ... its AN application ." (he's a cool instructor, he puts up with me quiet well and rarely 'accidentally ' smacks me in the head anymore .

 

One before that, back in the past, didnt even allow questions

To your first point, no, absolutely not. Presumably in this context, that "glimmering" is worth sticking around and the "obstacles" are just something to tolerate until you reach you end goal.

 

I find many things irritating about the way my academy runs. Maybe this is all a part of the lesson, as eventually, I reach that place where I do get what I need. Put to the test, the stuff works for me...so the coaching method is doing what I need it to. If I get frustrated, that usually seems down to me haha.

 

To your last sentence, what was the outcome?

[liminal_luke]

Please forgive if I'm veering a little off-topic, but what do you guys think about Karate? Ordinarily I'd gravitate towards something more philosophically hip (aikido) or energetically profound (tai chi or bagua), but in-person teachers are scarce in my little corner of Mexico. I have absolutely no interest in beating anybody up-- and getting my ass kicked has, if possible, even less appeal--so an aggressive, macho atmosphere won't work for me.

 

That said, I could really stand to get in better shape: improve my aerobic capacity, agility, basic strength, and so forth. All that kicking and punching might be just the thing. Thoughts?

 

Liminal

[ChiDragon]

Please forgive if I'm veering a little off-topic, but what do you guys think about Karate? Ordinarily I'd gravitate towards something more philosophically hip (aikido) or energetically profound (tai chi or bagua), but in-person teachers are scarce in my little corner of Mexico. I have absolutely no interest in beating anybody up-- and getting my ass kicked has, if possible, even less appeal--so an aggressive, macho atmosphere won't work for me.

 

That said, I could really stand to get in better shape: improve my aerobic capacity, agility, basic strength, and so forth. All that kicking and punching might be just the thing. Thoughts?

 

Liminal

 

Karate is not an art for improving your aerobic capacity, agility, basic strength, and so forth. Tai Chi will do all that for you.

[liminal_luke]

Chi Dragon,

 

Thanks for you opinion. Would you explain why Karate wouldn't work for that purpose? Liminal

[ChiDragon]

Liminal....
You welcome....!!!

Karate is an art designed for a person which already has innate physical strength. Its blows are very powerful but blunt and fatal. During practice, it dissipates a tremendous amount of body strength which may cause fatigue and short of breath. It takes a little time for recuperation.

[C T]

Please forgive if I'm veering a little off-topic, but what do you guys think about Karate? Ordinarily I'd gravitate towards something more philosophically hip (aikido) or energetically profound (tai chi or bagua), but in-person teachers are scarce in my little corner of Mexico. I have absolutely no interest in beating anybody up-- and getting my ass kicked has, if possible, even less appeal--so an aggressive, macho atmosphere won't work for me.

 

That said, I could really stand to get in better shape: improve my aerobic capacity, agility, basic strength, and so forth. All that kicking and punching might be just the thing. Thoughts?

 

Liminal

Hi Liminal,

 

I think Karate is as good a martial art as any to learn and put into practice, so i would encourage you to take it up without any reservations.

 

I believe Karate is based on a truly sound philosophy, one which is echoed below by the Japan Karate Association (JKA):

 

 

 

Forging a Karate Mind

Karate is not a game of points, weight classes or showy demonstrations. It is a martial art and way of life that trains a practitioner to be peaceful; but if conflict is unavoidable, true karate dictates taking down an opponent with one single blow.

Such an action requires strength, speed, focus and control. But these physical aspects are only part of the practice - they are just the vehicle, not the journey itself.

True karate is based on Bushido. In true karate, the body, mind and spirit -- the whole person -- must be developed simultaneously. Through kihon, kumite and kata we learn to give up control too. We can perform the techniques without thinking about them, and remain focused without having to concentrate on any one thing. In essence, the body remembers how to move and the mind remembers how to be still.

This harmonious unity of mind and body is intensely powerful. Even the greatest physical strength and skill are no match for the power of wholeness.

The result of true karate is natural, effortless action, and the confidence, humility, openness and peace only possible through perfect unity of mind and body. This is the core teaching of Zen, the basis of Bushido, and also the basis of JKA's karate philosophy.

 

 

Contrast the above statement to what some people assume (for eg. our resident expert commentator C.D. ) and it becomes clear that karate is not all about brute force.

[ChiDragon]

CT
My answer was per OP in the comparison of subtlety between Karate vs Tai Chi and Aikedo.

Edited March 17, 2014 by ChiDragon

[C T]

CT

My answer was per OP in the comparison of subtlety between Karate vs Tai Chi and Aikedo.

Sorry, but this was not clearly pointed out at all in post 18 and 20, which were the specific posts i had in mind responding the way i had.

 

Dont take it the wrong way please. It was only a bit of light-hearted sarcasm, nothing serious.

 

Peace, Mr Dragon.

[Colonel Goji]

I would say most karate schools in the area where I'm from are not completely genuine, in fact most are mainly concerned with making a profit, teaching flashy moves and supposedly teaching self discipline and other fine qualities of character. Actually there is one decent karate school in the closest major city to here, but other than that it's all McDojos and Blackbelt Factories.

 

If you can find a good karate school by all means get into it. I think the important thing with any martial art is that you find a genuine teacher who is most concerned with passing on the philosophy and cultivating oneself in all aspects of being a person, not just physical stuff, and is not just out for a profit.

 

Might I recommend the book Beyond the Known, http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Known-Ultimate-Martial-Classics/dp/0804834652?

Edited March 17, 2014 by Colonel Goji

[Nungali]

To your first point, no, absolutely not. Presumably in this context, that "glimmering" is worth sticking around and the "obstacles" are just something to tolerate until you reach you end goal.

 

I find many things irritating about the way my academy runs. Maybe this is all a part of the lesson, as eventually, I reach that place where I do get what I need. Put to the test, the stuff works for me...so the coaching method is doing what I need it to. If I get frustrated, that usually seems down to me haha.

 

To your last sentence, what was the outcome?

I was young, inexperienced, I just accepted it as I had nothing to compare it with. I learnt some good basics. I moved on. (But it was full of holes ... I might have been able to win a comp in that style ... or others, as we taught we were the mother style or somehow better .... but it was a hopeless system of fighting and self-defence.

 

Once during a ' first really good session' with an Aikido teacher , he did something that rather amazed me and asked him how he did that. He got indignant and said " I am not going to tell you that" I got a bit pissed off, I mean, wasnt that what I was paying him for. I had a bit of a think on it and came to the conclusion that he might have said; "I am not going to tell you that." So I tried watching and feeling instead.