new verses of the DDJ

[Marblehead]

Desire which comes from the heart/mind etc. has to be let go of,

But then Chuang Tzu tells us to listen to our heart. But I agree, lessening desires of the mind is a key factor.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Marblehead

[dawei]

It does but Li Erh is talking about finding ones way along the path, which may involve many obstacles, including facing the self.

 

Interestingly enough, it reminds me of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress....

[flowing hands]

Here is two more verses

 

85

Edited November 16, 2014 by flowing hands

[Jeff]

Hi SFH,

 

 

In verse 86, do you think the drum could represent energy or vibrations that are felt? Or, do you think it is something else?

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

Edited March 23, 2014 by Jeff

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 85 sounds like a replica of Chapters One and 25.

Edited March 24, 2014 by ChiDragon

[flowing hands]

Hi SFH,

 

 

In verse 86, do you think the drum could represent energy or vibrations that are felt? Or, do you think it is something else?

 

Best wishes,

Jeff

No the drum is hit by the shaman or someone who is part of the sacred dance, to create the rhythm. This rhythm is set to help people focus and lose themselves to ecstatic experience.

[flowing hands]

Chapter 85 sounds like a replica of Chapter One.

Of course, many chapters echo what has been said before. Remember these verses are not set out like a book and are the thoughts of Li Erh as his understanding of the Dao came to him. So themes will be repeated. I do believe he has another 19 to teach me.

[flowing hands]

Verse 87

Edited November 16, 2014 by flowing hands

[Marblehead]

I'm still trying to come to peace with lines 1 - 4.

 

Tzujan seems to be mixed up in there.

[Jeff]

I'm still trying to come to peace with lines 1 - 4.

 

Tzujan seems to be mixed up in there.

 

I would agree.

[flowing hands]

What is the One? Forget your terms and read what is said.

[Marblehead]

What is the One? Forget your terms and read what is said.

I tried. Really.

 

Tao gave birth to One.

 

Tao follows Tzujan.

 

I know that your tradition is a little different from mine so non-understandings will enter sometimes.

[Stosh]

In looking at various sources Id say that there is long standing confusion regarding what the one would be if it wasnt Dao, or if the Way was the non material manifestation of All. Im not saying here which I think is which logically speaking , just that there is long standing confusion on that issue , and thats because one can look at it any way one wants to , it doesnt make any difference ANY way you look at it.

 

My take .. or presentation..

is that the parts make up the all, and the 'parts' require differentiation to be 'parts', and differentiations are required for events to happen , and that brings one back to events and happenings making up the whole 'ONE" or all.

We be- hoist by our own petard.

[flowing hands]

I tried. Really.

 

Tao gave birth to One.

 

Tao follows Tzujan.

 

I know that your tradition is a little different from mine so non-understandings will enter sometimes.

Edited March 25, 2014 by flowing hands

[flowing hands]

Sorry something wrong with the posting

 

 

 

In 87 he talking about the very beginning of all things, the thing that actually

 

created Dao. Before Dao there was nothing, but something then created which manifested itself into Dao. Li Erh is calling this the One.

 

So he says that the One as so described gave substance for the existence of Dao.

With the existence of Dao so that gave rise to the ten thousand things. Now what he calls the one in an earlier verse is the first life form that had no gender or means of reproduction. At the early stages of life, bacteria like life came to fruition and died very quickly, these were of no gender. Eventually they evolved so they could reproduce as the forces were divided within them. So we get two.

Dao is the manifestation of the One. The way of the universe manifests itself as the Dao. Hope I'm making myself clear.

[Jeff]

Hi SFH,

 

So for you, would it go...

 

Nothingness => One => Tao => 10,000 things ?

[dawei]

I'm still trying to come to peace with lines 1 - 4.

 

This is actually how I have always seen it.. and probably why in the past my take was not easily understood. As Stosh said, it is confusing... but only because people follow DDJ25 too literally (Dao produced One) and ignore all other ancient texts which more clearly and in detail reveal that "The One gave substance to the Dao".

 

I don't have a great picture for you but how I have seen it is like a coin, which is whole (One). On one side is nothingness and the other side is manifest.

 

Instead of two sides, in the past I have talked like it is changing phases (think the 5 element transformations) but this seems to not work so well for some.

[Marblehead]

Thanks Dawei, but that didn't help. Hehehe. (I am hard-headed, afterall.) But then, maybe it really doesn't matter which way we understand it because it did happen none-the-less. Here we are.

[Jeff]

HI Dawei,

 

Thanks. So can you describe the "tao" a little more? Is it sort of the building blocks of all that "exists"?

 

Best,

Jeff

[ChiDragon]

Let's follow the Yi Jing.

Wu Ji => Tai JI
Invisible(Tao) => Visible(Tao)
Wu(無) => You(有)
0 => 1
Tao => One

Edited March 26, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I figured out why it caused me conflict. One is a thing. To say that One gave substance to Tao is to suggest that there is something greater than Tao and that it is a thing, i.e, God.

 

That would not belong in my Taoist Philosophy at all. Not even a little bit.

 

Tao gave birth to One. One is a thing (singularity) and the beginning of all things.

 

Likely not many will agree with me but that's the way life is sometimes.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Marblehead

[flowing hands]

Hi SFH,

 

So for you, would it go...

 

Nothingness => One => Tao => 10,000 things ?

Yes but its not me I am just the person who is receiving the verse.

What I understand is this; I have been taught that nothing existed and then for some reason a tiny vibration occurred. Over millions of years this vibration got louder and stronger. As this happened heat began to be generated. After a long time the pressure was enormous that was created by the One. Eventually this burst into dimension, causing the nothingness to be pulled in and conversely the expansion to happen at the same time. So at that moment the One gives birth to the Dao, the Dao is the way all things will then follow that force. The one remains in all of us and in all things as well as the Dao that has helped us to mold what we are. This has nothing to do with God. What the One is we really don't know, but it is not God or a living thing, its the creator of all things along with the Dao. It is so close to being Dao though, because when the One manifest, so Dao was created at that same moment. But it was not Dao that caused the first vibration. If you think about this it makes absolute sense. (to me anyway!)

[Stosh]

I'd say theyre All good answers and considerations... Whew ! Im glad thats all settled.

[dawei]

HI Dawei,

 

Thanks. So can you describe the "tao" a little more? Is it sort of the building blocks of all that "exists"?

 

Best,

Jeff

 

I will say that at one time I used to think of it in terms of phase transformation;

 

Nothingness simply transforms in energy/light/ to heat to vibration and thus begins the manifestation/arising. In my original formula, Dao was always there yet dormant in the 'nothingness' phase. I reasoned that Nothingness followed the Dao (as dormant, empty, etc). All the phases combined are simply One.

 

This follows the idea that Dao is the blueprint in all phases by which all natures of all phases follow.

 

In the last few years I have modified that position as I found that the TTC was really the only ancient text which tries to put Dao as central to the great awakening; Almost all the others put ONE as the central starting point; Dao was always later. But the blueprint idea remains.

 

This next section finally won me over but many talk in this manner:

 

The phrase “Hengxian” in Daoyuan 道原(“The origin of Dao”) in Huangdi sijing 黄帝四经 (The Four Canons of the Yellow Emperor):

 

恒先之初，迥同太虚。At the start of what is the ultimate beginning (Heng Xian), this distant aspect is the great void;

虚同为一，恒一而止。Vacuous together [with distant time] makes it One, it is the ultimate One and nothing else.

 

 

一者其号也。Its title is the One;

虚其舍也，its dwelling is the void;

无为其素也，Wu Wei is its original constitution;

和其用也。harmony is its operation.

 

 

There is a Han Divination Book which breaks it down without reference to Dao... IMO, Dao would be so integral to ONE that it is hard to distinguish it as separate.

 

Great Beginning (Primal Chaos is ONE) changes to

Great Extreme (Tai Ji) changes to

Great Change (Tai Jing) to

Great Origin (Of life-manifestation) to

Great Materialization.

 

As a result: "The roaming deities move as spirits. As a result, they fly and walk, hidden in transformation. The lower life forms move, like fish, inbetween Heaven and Earth. "

[ChiDragon]

Tao gave birth to One. One is a thing (singularity) and the beginning of all things.

 

Tao manifested itself as One. Tao is the One.

 

Tao is You(有) at the beginning of all things.

Edited March 26, 2014 by ChiDragon