new verses of the DDJ

[GrandmasterP]

Should we even seek the Dao? Personally, I think not. No seeking to do, it is right there, right if front of our face.

 

Emptying the mind is necessary, sure. I'm not sure about emptying the heart though.That is, unless we are speaking of our emotional baggage when we say the heart.

 

Didn't Lao Tzu tell us to stay with the fruit and not the flower? Or was that Chuang Tzu?

 

TTC 38

Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real

and not what is on the surface,

On the fruit and not the flower,

Therefore accept the one and reject the other.

 

HTH

 

:-)

[nestentrie]

Is feeling the sting of the thorn but the mistake of feeling for the flower and being surprised?

[Marblehead]

TTC 38 Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real and not what is on the surface, On the fruit and not the flower, Therefore accept the one and reject the other. HTH :-)

Thanks for the work. I could have done it but I just wanted to tempt someone else to do it. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

Is feeling the sting of the thorn but the mistake of feeling for the flower and being surprised?

Yes, that is the problem with getting too close to the rose. There are thorns in there!

[GrandmasterP]

But we can use a rose thorn to extract a rose thorn.

A rose thorn is the best thing ever devised for extracting unwelcome gardening splinters in the hands.

Edited March 30, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[dawei]

TTC 38 Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real and not what is on the surface, On the fruit and not the flower, Therefore accept the one and reject the other. HTH :-)

 

Nice tie in

 

Looking at FH's transmission, the lines before ties in his point, when Dao is lost...

 

 

TTC 38

 

Therefore when the Dao is lost, goodness and kindness arise.

When goodness and kindness are lost, dictatorship arises.

These things are the beginning of confusion.

Confusion always arises when the Dao is lost, people then must find something to replace it.

Therefore the man of Dao dwells on what is real and not what is superficial.

Great goodness and kindness are sometimes not in

keeping with the Dao. So remain at one and all will be well.

[Stosh]

So what is the stuff ,here considered, as 'real' versus 'superficial' ?

[Marblehead]

So what is the stuff ,here considered, as 'real' versus 'superficial' ?

Real = Lao Tzu

 

Superficial = Confucius

[Stosh]

I think I get your meaning Mh, but , not expecting the question to be a thread stopper, I was looking for an explicit answer.

Depending how you look at the polemic of real vs superficial , they dont really line up.

The usual pairings are real versus unreal, OR, superficial versus essential.

comparitively ..

Looking at Chuangs reverie, about being possibly a butterfly, his status as a man being therefore in question.. The idea of real versus unreal ,easily runs parallel , with material and immaterial. The material being suspect in that case , and the immaterial is possibly the verifiable thing opposite to it.

 

So not knowing how this stuff is being seen , I can't conclude what is meant here , by others.

 

Once that decision was made,, about what the subject is , one could approach the question of , just how is it that one should respond to that which is 'real' and how to consider that which is considered 'unreal',, ignore it? disrespect it?

Because clearly ,the subject really isnt fruit.

OR if the polemic refers to that which is essential versus that which is superficial,, then the whole reality issue isnt being considered here at all, and reality is being left unquestioned, but rather if people are being true unto thier nature.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Stosh

[soaring crane]

So what is the stuff ,here considered, as 'real' versus 'superficial' ?

 

From my perspective, you've touched on the parting of the way between Daoism and Buddhism, or better said, China and India. Chinese thought was always much more evidence-based, pragmatic and society-oriented, and so it is in the Laozi. Nobody was questioning reality or truth. There were no illusions.

 

Re the butterfly dream, consider this: Zhuangzi was the original troll. He'd probably last about three days at TTB before getting banned.

Edited April 1, 2014 by soaring crane

[soaring crane]

 

Time for me to seek out the spirit of the valley and rest in her sweet embrace.

 

I went looking once. Looking and finding. Yep. I looked inside. I looked at the valleys in the landscape of the body; there are quite a few of them there. There are valleys between the fingers. There are valleys between the toes. There's a valley between the lungs and between the breasts, and another one between testicles. All the inward yin curves along the back of the body, the hollows of the knees, the lumbar spine, the nape of the neck, are valleys. There's a deep valley between the kidneys and there's a beautiful, expansive, magical valley between the twin mountains the make up both halves of the brain. She's hiding there somewhere, calling ... Marble .... Head ... come find me :-)

[Marblehead]

You sure have that valley thing down pretty well!

[GrandmasterP]

You sure have that valley thing down pretty well!

 

Loretta Lynne likewise.

 

:-)

[Marblehead]

Yeah!

 

Bluegrass music has a lot of gospel songs and there are some songs I just can't remove out of my collection because the songs are sung from the heart.

[GrandmasterP]

Oh Brother Where Art Thou

 

is a Taoist movie IMO.

Bluegrass rocks.

 

On topic as far as channeled TTC or related texts go, I can't see the harm in it all.

Each reader draws their own conclusions and Sifu FH's channeled writings are most poetic.

Edited April 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

From my perspective, you've touched on the parting of the way between Daoism and Buddhism, or better said, China and India. Chinese thought was always much more evidence-based, pragmatic and society-oriented, and so it is in the Laozi. Nobody was questioning reality or truth. There were no illusions.

 

Re the butterfly dream, consider this: Zhuangzi was the original troll. He'd probably last about three days at TTB before getting banned.

Ill take your perspective on the general regional opinion groupings as fundamentally true, I personally dunno ,but , if I was squeezed into making a bid Id say that either has its share of proponents of either. Leaping from there , am I correct to assume that the chapter, as you read it , is concerned with human nature , and has nothing to do with logic and physics of the universe?

The possibly accurate assessment , of the basic Chinese pragmatism , could play into the scenario in two ways...

one , that Chuang was just as biased towards the practical matters of being happy , and eschewing the metaphysics ,like everyone else..

OR ,

He,, being a troublemaker,, was instead driving a point ,which was contrary to the popular zeitgeist.

Similarly. Lao ,, or Li could also be speaking to issues which were in need of being heard, not neccesarily what was already the unhappy paradigm in which he was immersed.

( I see you chose not to be explicit in this either ,whats up with that? )

Edited April 1, 2014 by Stosh

[Mark Saltveit]

Couldn't agree more on bluegrass. It's often a bit Christy for my tastes, but you can't deny the heart and spirit.

Also along those lines: the Louvin Brothers, Satan Is Real. I don't agree, but some of those songs are pure gold (

,

,

(covered by the Byrds), and

).

[GrandmasterP]

It is no coincidence that Bluegrass Gospel is the Country Music of choice for many first and some second generation Pure Land Buddhist immigrants into the USA.

Substitute Amitabha for Baby Jesus in the lyrics if only conceptually and you got a toe tappin' nembutsu right there on your convenience store backing track.

Nary a local customer any the wiser that storeowners 'Pop' and Mrs Nguyen ( pronounced N'Win) aren't anything other than well and truly integrated into redneck 'culture'.

Clever Pure Land!

Edited April 2, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

the Louvin Brothers, Satan Is Real.

I actually had that LP but it got destroyed by being left out in the sun (not by me).

[soaring crane]

Leaping from there , am I correct to assume that the chapter, as you read it , is concerned with human nature , and has nothing to do with logic and physics of the universe?

( I see you chose not to be explicit in this either ,whats up with that? )

 

Hi Stosh - I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking. You mean the butterfly dream? Or Ch 38 (nee Ch 1) of the Laozi?

 

Short continuation on ZZ and the butterfly -- he was a brilliant humorist and satirist, and just a bit cynical. A troll in today's terms. It's not meant to be profound; it's a biting commentary on his contemporaries in the philosophical circles. That passage was like a spider's web spun to catch flies.

 

There was no doubt in his mind about his own manhood, and anyone who breathes through their heels should be grounded well-enough to know if he's a bug or not

 

I didn't make this evaluation up (and I didn't channel it, haha). It's an argument that has been put out there by modern scholars, and it's the one find most likely.

 

In either event, it's probably better to open up a new thread, no?

Edited April 2, 2014 by soaring crane

[Stosh]

Hi Stosh - I'm not 100% clear on what you're asking. You mean the butterfly dream? Or Ch 38 (nee Ch 1) of the Laozi?

 

Short continuation on ZZ and the butterfly -- he was a brilliant humorist and satirist, and just a bit cynical. A troll in today's terms. It's not meant to be profound; it's a biting commentary on his contemporaries in the philosophical circles. That passage was like a spider's web spun to catch flies.

 

There was no doubt in his mind about his own manhood, and anyone who breathes through their heels should be grounded well-enough to know if he's a bug or not

 

I didn't make this evaluation up (and I didn't channel it, haha). It's an argument that has been put out there by modern scholars, and it's the one find most likely.

 

In either event, it's probably better to open up a new thread, no?

I was still circling around the same question TTC 38

"Therefore the man of Dao dwells on what is real and not what is superficial."

I only mentioned Zz because he also had something to say about the perspective of what was considered real., but Im finding I may be the only one who thinks so.

Edited April 2, 2014 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

I was still circling around the same question TTC 38

"Therefore the man of Dao dwells on what is real and not what is superficial."

I only mentioned Zz because he also had something to say about the perspective of what was considered real., but Im finding I may be the only one who thinks so.

 

Suppose it reads:

"Therefore, a great man dwells in truthfulness but not what is artificial."

[Stosh]

 

Suppose it reads:

"Therefore, a great man dwells in truthfulness but not what is artificial."

Great , that shifts the meaning a bit , now if you would just cover what is artificial , specifically. We'd be there.

[Marblehead]

... now if you would just cover what is artificial , specifically. We'd be there.

That's going to be a tricky one!

[Brian]

While "real" and "superficial" are not antonyms in the strictest sense, it is my opinion that "real" in this context suggests "essence" and "core" and "natural" and "foundation," and that "superficial" brings to mind "skin-deep" and "facade" and "contrived" and "illusion." I therefore prefer the words "real" and "superficial" in this verse -- I think they work nicely in that chapter.

 

Although this thread is for flowing hands to share new chapters rather than to dissect earlier chapters, it seems appropriate to repeat flowing hands' translation of chapter 38:

 

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness.

And therefore his goodness shines forth.

When a foolish man does good,

things are overdone and out of balance.

 

A truly good man does nothing

and yet nothing is left undone.

A foolish man's goodness leaves much to be desired, and a great deal is left to be finished.

 

When a man of Dao does something, he leaves nothing undone.

When a dictator does something and uses force, people rebel in their hearts and bitterness

arises.

Therefore when the Dao is lost, goodness and kindness arise.

When goodness and kindness are lost, dictatorship arises.

These things are the beginning of confusion.

 

Confusion always arises when the Dao is lost, people then must find something to replace it.

Therefore the man of Dao dwells on what is real and not what is superficial.

 

Great goodness and kindness are sometimes not in

keeping with the Dao. So remain at one and all will be well.

 

_/\_