new verses of the DDJ

[ChiDragon]

Great , that shifts the meaning a bit , now if you would just cover what is artificial , specifically. We'd be there.

 

Since this is FH's thread, what I will do is go back to Chapter 38 where I had left it.

[soaring crane]

What if it said:

 

Therefore the great and fully matured man

Stays on the path of the substantial reality

And doesn't while away his time with meaningless distractions

 

?

Edited April 3, 2014 by soaring crane

[Marblehead]

But I still enjoy distractions now and again.

[Stosh]

While "real" and "superficial" are not antonyms in the strictest sense, it is my opinion that "real" in this context suggests "essence" and "core" and "natural" and "foundation," and that "superficial" brings to mind "skin-deep" and "facade" and "contrived" and "illusion." I therefore prefer the words "real" and "superficial" in this verse -- I think they work nicely in that chapter.

 

Although this thread is for flowing hands to share new chapters rather than to dissect earlier chapters, it seems appropriate to repeat flowing hands' translation of chapter 38:

 

A truly good man is not aware of his goodness.

And therefore his goodness shines forth.

When a foolish man does good,

things are overdone and out of balance.

 

A truly good man does nothing

and yet nothing is left undone.

A foolish man's goodness leaves much to be desired, and a great deal is left to be finished.

 

When a man of Dao does something, he leaves nothing undone.

When a dictator does something and uses force, people rebel in their hearts and bitterness

arises.

Therefore when the Dao is lost, goodness and kindness arise.

When goodness and kindness are lost, dictatorship arises.

These things are the beginning of confusion.

 

Confusion always arises when the Dao is lost, people then must find something to replace it.

Therefore the man of Dao dwells on what is real and not what is superficial.

 

Great goodness and kindness are sometimes not in

keeping with the Dao. So remain at one and all will be well.

 

_/\_

well any of those ,,essence, core, foundation, Do fit as better antonyms for superficial.

Read that way , the subject matter is not reality versus unreality , and makes for a clear opinion of whats meant there.

That youd still prefer the word 'real' , knowing its connotations may lead others , me , to feel that the passage means something else,, is your prerogative,though I would think effectual translation would attempt to negate inappropriate connotations if at all possible.

 

Anyway,, in light of your reading it such as you do,, what specifically do you consider 'core' and 'superficial'.

Specifically ,, as in''''

some precise words about what is at the core of a human ,or what is superficial for a human , in such a manner as someone could easily recognize immediately whether anything was 'core' or 'superficial , and take the appropriate steps about it.

 

We can deal with subjective ideas about good and bad some other time.

[Stosh]

What if it said:

 

Therefore the great and fully matured man

Stays on the path of the substantial reality

And doesn't while away his time with meaningless distractions

 

?

I like that SC, though ,,,,I picture the sage is supposed to eschew greatness ,wisdom, ambition ,maturity, etc.

and the term 'substantial reality' makes me think the direction pointed is towards materialism.

[flowing hands]

Ok here is verse 90

Edited November 16, 2014 by flowing hands

[flowing hands]

Here is verse 91

Edited November 16, 2014 by flowing hands

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Excellent teachings, reflecting the wisdom and principle of following the way of Dao.

 

I believe there are sacred teachers beyond the physical, and sacred principles which are passed on more by these teachers than any physical teachers, so thank you Shaman Flowing Hands for sharing what your teachers and masters have explained to you.

 

 

和

[manitou]

FH said - (from 84)

 

"A great tree stretches its limbs towards the Heavens.
Men should be like trees.
A great tree draws its goodness from the Earth and from the Heavens.
Men should be like trees."

 

 

Sorry I'm late to the party. Can I go back to the great tree metaphor in 82? I'd like to catch up.

 

It struck me recently, as I was driving down the street listening to Elvis sing "Are You Lonesome Tonight?" - he got to the part where he speaks 'Each of us is in a play, and each must play his part'. (Fate had me playing in love with you as my sweetheart). But i started noticing the trees. Really seeing them. Seeing their groupings, their families - like an uncle instructing his young nephews sometimes, or a female tree leaning up against a male tree, or a group of young saplings playing together.

 

Anthromorphism? sure. Why not? This is the part that the tree volunteered to play in this drama - a tree! Like a little kid in a kindergarten play. Maybe this is why the Ancients were so attuned to nature - because they saw the trees and animals as our brothers - revering the One as all life (and death) forms. they initially didn't live in insulated surroundings to the degree that we do. More of their time was spent on the earth, receiving stimulus from the Mother.

 

Folks put down anthromorphism as something childish, something only children indulge in. but what better way to experience the Oneness if we can say hello to a chair and really mean it? Don't you suppose that the Ancients saw faces in everything they saw around them - the clouds, the trees, the water?

Edited May 7, 2014 by manitou

[manitou]

FH said: (from 84)

 

"Stretching forth to Heaven with an open and humble heart, the way becomes clearer to such men."

 

 

The way to a humble heart is to give credit where credit is due. We're not doing it, the Absolute is. Anything we respond to, or think we know, or initiate with our own heart - is not really being done by us, it's being done within the Dao. We are not separate from it.

 

To achieve a humble heart also requires a conscious effort to diminish and control our egos, our character defects, our desire to be first, our desire to 'be' anything.

 

The way becomes clear because there are fewer character defects to distort the vision.

Edited May 7, 2014 by manitou

[Marblehead]

... but what better way to experience the Oneness if we can say hello to a chair and really mean it?

I don't normally talk to chairs unless I accidently walk into one (not nice things are then said) but I do talk to other life forms.

[manitou]

 

 

 

Followers of the Dao should equally make no judgments or have preferences.

 

When rules are made so the great perversion begins.

 

 

Seems like periodically on this forum we'll get into a spat about making no judgments - our common wisdom tells us that we all make judgments, we all have preferences.

 

But this is the practice of Taoism or any journey of enlightenment. Our first instinct is to see the differences and make judgments. Our second instinct should be to override our first instinct.

 

Yes, when rules are made, the Great Tao is lost. We no longer see the forest because we're too caught up in the trees.

[Marblehead]

But this is the practice of Taoism or any journey of enlightenment. Our first instinct is to see the differences and make judgments. Our second instinct should be to override our first instinct.

Therein lies the difference. Our instinct tells us to see the differences and to make judgements. What we have learned (not natural) is to override our instincts. That is why I still go with my instincts - they are my natural reactions to my environment.

 

I must see the differences because the rose flower won't hurt me if I touch it but the rose thorn will darn sure draw blood.

 

Same with judgements - if I have eaten something in the past that has caused me an upset stomach every time I eat it then I should make the judgement that I should not eat that food. Likewise with people - if an individual person always causes me stress when they are around me then I should judge that person as be a negative influence on me and naturally avoid that person.

[CloudHands]

Instinct is needed for survive, it's our most primitive part. For sure we need it but are we not trying to live ? I mean, to see beauty in shades of grey and welcome colors ?

Experiencing being newly a father I don't think we were born "perfect" and we lost that magnificent connexion to the tao, we manage the best we can with environment all the way, overcoming the basic duality beneficial/negative that become more and more complex all the way until you have clarity enough to realize that you don't need to know if it's rhythm n blues or soul music to appreciate it.

 

My 2 cents,

 

Peace

[Stosh]

^{IMO anyone can ,and will make judgements about things , they can appear as instict , (but I wouldnt call them such) ,}

^{anywho ,, I feel the thing one should understand about the judgements we make}

^{is that they are largely subjective, just as the last thing to make one barf is a stimulus which not everyone will share in.}

^{Knowing the subjectivity of it doesnt make it go away however , and Im not sure that having judgements go away would beneficial}

^{one can have "instinct" to trust , to empathize , to defend ,, just as often as they will be motivated to distrust , reserve empathy , or attack.}

^{Understanding the subjective nature of our opinions gives us leeway to extend a benefit of doubt , exert tolerance , or leave another to thier own.}

^{When one thinks they have things "right" then anyone else is conclusively factually "wrong" if they dont agree.}

^{There are times when one can claim to be correct , vs erroneous , but subject matter of that sort is actually "provable"}

^{leaving opportunity for disparate views to come into accord, In correcting ,}

^{the person wrong is the one who stands to benefit. This gets forgotten often out of a desire to have faith in oneself in light of}

^{potential "righteous correctors " trying to undermine others to find validations that do not depend on facts.}

^{The errors lie in confusion about that which constitutes "fact" and that which constitutes subjective opinion.}

^{Well , thats how I see it.}

^{( so it MUST be FACT)}

[flowing hands]

 

Seems like periodically on this forum we'll get into a spat about making no judgments - our common wisdom tells us that we all make judgments, we all have preferences.

 

But this is the practice of Taoism or any journey of enlightenment. Our first instinct is to see the differences and make judgments. Our second instinct should be to override our first instinct.

 

Yes, when rules are made, the Great Tao is lost. We no longer see the forest because we're too caught up in the trees.

Let me see if I can elucidate what these lines mean.

We must remember that Li Erh is considering the position of someone who has further advanced their self cultivation. To this level one is empty of all things, like the Dao, like the universal life force that gives life to all things. In this state one sees the world and all things like the Dao does so to speak; no preferences no prejudices. So this is what this line means, it is an expression of the highest state of living kind.

[manitou]

In my opinion (sometimes humble, sometimes not) - this is what the practice of Daoism is all about. This is how we ascend to masterhood - to recognize that the differences are all the Same. Rather than avoid someone with whom we don't resonate, or avoid them - what a perfect time to practice Oneness and to realize that they are just the other half of You. By doing this, it frees a type of agape love that removes the barriers. That thing which we don't like about somebody else is because we have the same in ourselves and don't want to see it - so we turn away from the mirror (which the other person is).

[manitou]

When the Dao manifested in the Universe, sacred numbers and sounds were created.

 

The sacred numbers and sounds are many and they came from the One.

Such knowledge of the two from the One, the Ancient Masters knew.

The Ancient Masters sang their songs and counted the beat in harmony with the One. Therefore they were realized.

Such knowledge was common to such men of old; their songs affected all things and all things were brought into harmony.

 

 

I like this, FH. It brings to mind that the Dao is a template. Your lines above delineate this, quantify the Dao in a sense; the sacred numbers and sacred sounds came from the Dao, emanate from the Dao. The blueprint for all of life, these sacred numbers and sounds.

 

Funny how the Dao was implemented for the purpose of reversion, back to the One. Makes you wonder what the purpose is, anyway? Just to finish back where we started? The One is all-knowing and certainly understood with its One-brain that man would fall away from the fullness of the One and start naming and differentiating. it's as though there is a Demi-Urge of sorts that is evolving into 'something', but anybody's guess what it is; and for some reason, it needed to scatter into a zillion different pieces (us, throughout all of time) and reassemble itself in a more intentional way.

 

Sometimes I just think that It wanted Company. Can Li Erh share any secrets like......Why??

[flowing hands]

 

I like this, FH. It brings to mind that the Dao is a template. Your lines above delineate this, quantify the Dao in a sense; the sacred numbers and sacred sounds came from the Dao, emanate from the Dao. The blueprint for all of life, these sacred numbers and sounds.

 

Funny how the Dao was implemented for the purpose of reversion, back to the One. Makes you wonder what the purpose is, anyway? Just to finish back where we started? The One is all-knowing and certainly understood with its One-brain that man would fall away from the fullness of the One and start naming and differentiating. it's as though there is a Demi-Urge of sorts that is evolving into 'something', but anybody's guess what it is; and for some reason, it needed to scatter into a zillion different pieces (us, throughout all of time) and reassemble itself in a more intentional way.

 

Sometimes I just think that It wanted Company. Can Li Erh share any secrets like......Why??

 

 

 

From where the One came from or how it begun no one knows, but it created the Dao at its first inseption and so all things have followed that formula. Edited May 21, 2014 by flowing hands

[dawei]

I once said: From the ONE came Dao... and the rest is history...

[Marblehead]

I once said: From the ONE came Dao... and the rest is history...

Did I disagree with you when you said it the first time?

[dawei]

Did I disagree with you when you said it the first time?

 

Did you agree though...

[Marblehead]

Did you agree though...

Hehehe. If I didn't I should have.

 

One is a "thing". Tao is a non-thing. A thing (One) cannot give birth to a non-thing.

 

Tao (a non-thing) gave birth to One (a thing). One, Two, Three, 10,000. Hydrogen, Helium, Stars, all other elements that make up the universe.

[Jeff]

Hehehe. If I didn't I should have.

 

One is a "thing". Tao is a non-thing. A thing (One) cannot give birth to a non-thing.

 

Tao (a non-thing) gave birth to One (a thing). One, Two, Three, 10,000. Hydrogen, Helium, Stars, all other elements that make up the universe.

 

Hi MH,

 

In my original understanding of the meaning of the "Tao" I would agree with you. Sort of like the Tao is the same as "emptiness" in the the Buddhist sense. But, here SFH and Dawei are describing the Tao more as the "natural flow/order" in the One (manifest existence).

 

Interesting concept and way of thinking about it that was new to me...

[Marblehead]

Hi MH, In my original understanding of the meaning of the "Tao" I would agree with you. Sort of like the Tao is the same as "emptiness" in the the Buddhist sense. But, here SFH and Dawei are describing the Tao more as the "natural flow/order" in the One (manifest existence). Interesting concept and way of thinking about it that was new to me...

Yep. I know I'm being a pain here but I felt it was necessary in order to maintain the order in which it is presented in the TTC. I do understand their POV, it is just that I don't agree with it, which, in essence, means nothing.

 

Yes, One is the first order of Manifestation. And yes, of course, Tao fucntions within One. This is because One is an aspect of Tao.