Marblehead Posted March 26, 2014 I'd say theyre All good answers and considerations... Whew ! Im glad thats all settled. Yes, I will remain silent regarding this now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff Posted March 26, 2014 (edited) Dawei & SFH, Thank you for sharing your perspectives. I will have to look deeper into Taoist texts. I had previously assumed that the Tao was the "nothingness" that the one emerged from. That the Tao was basically the same as the Buddhist concept of emptiness. But with your descriptions, nothingness would match to emptiness. Also, with Dawei's descriptions, it would seem that the Tao would be an inseparable aspect of the one. Kind of like a primal desire or potential to be manifest. Thanks, Jeff Edited March 26, 2014 by Jeff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted March 26, 2014 Also, with Dawei's descriptions, it would seem that the Tao would be an inseparable aspect of the one. Kind of like a primal desire or potential to be manifest. That is an interesting way of putting it. Dao is the manifesting impulse/potential, which ties in some ways to "De" as the ultimate efficacious power/capacity/potential inherent aspect. After all, I think it correct to think that Dao and De cannot be separated. The confusion also seems to come from so many varying descriptions; Dao, One (sometimes Yi and sometimes Tai Yi), Tai Ji, HengXian, Wuji, Emptiness, Nothingness are at times considered synonymous. I think this is because from an academic point of view, we can only explore the limits of the mind and writings. To get beyond this, as you know, will require getting beyond mind. But the common themes across the texts cannot be ignored. Another common picture is that Dao as the melting/fire pot for all things; interesting ancient usage given alchemy is usually linked to external chemical transformations but clearly the ancients had an internal picture based on Dao. I could say more but this may all be detracting from the OP's thread. (If the OP wanted, this discussion aspect could be split) 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) 86 The ancient shaman would take up the drum and lead the people into sacred dance. When the shaman's drum was abandoned, people sought riches and material possessions. So I say, let the shaman take up her drum and headdress. The mentioning of shamanism is the violation of the concept of Wu Wei. The TTC is an atheist document because Lao Zi is an atheist and a naturalist. Shamanism must be considered an outside influence of the TTC. Edited March 27, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted March 27, 2014 (edited) The mentioning of shamanism is the violation of the concept of Wu Wei. The TTC is an atheist document because Lao Zi is an atheist and a naturalist. Shamanism must be considered an outside influence of the TTC. This of course is your assumption and shamanism doesn't violate wu wei at all! How on Earth can it be a athiest document??? Edited March 27, 2014 by flowing hands Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 27, 2014 This of course is your assumption and shamanism doesn't violate wu wei at all! How on Earth can it be a athiest document??? That is not my assumption. If you really understand the classic text of the TTC, I bet you will not find a phrase that supports your claim. Do you have a good reason why shamanism doesn't violate wu wei at all....??? What is your definition of Wu Wei as compared to the definition in the TTC...??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted March 27, 2014 That is not my assumption. If you really understand the classic text of the TTC, I bet you will not find a phrase that supports your claim. Do you have a good reason why shamanism doesn't violate wu wei at all....??? What is your definition of Wu Wei as compared to the definition in the TTC...??? I've had this same question in the post I started about the DDJ being a shamanistic treatise. Have a look at this for your answer. Sorry not brushing you off, but don't have the time to get into it.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 27, 2014 Yeah, this same arguement. I've had it before. I've had it regarding Religious Taoist. I'm tired of arguing. The Tao is all inclusive. I gotta' go find my "Harmony" now. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted March 27, 2014 Argument was due to the big difference in conflict with the comprehension of the TTC. Therefore, no one should be dare to rewrite the TTC or add misleading information to it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted March 28, 2014 Argument was due to the big difference in conflict with the comprehension of the TTC. Therefore, no one should be dare to rewrite the TTC or add misleading information to it. Until your a Shaman, as Flowing Hands is, you should start your own threads on such topics. Respect the OPs thread. Contribute meaningfully to the topic please. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zerostao Posted March 28, 2014 my only commentary is , I am enjoying the verses. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 28, 2014 Argument was due to the big difference in conflict with the comprehension of the TTC. Therefore, no one should be dare to rewrite the TTC or add misleading information to it. My above post wasn't directed only at you. It was a generalized statement. I really am tired of all the arguments. all the posturing, all the ego building, all the unasked-for judgements and criticisms. Time for me to seek out the spirit of the valley and rest in her sweet embrace. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted March 28, 2014 My above post wasn't directed only at you. It was a generalized statement. I really am tired of all the arguments. all the posturing, all the ego building, all the unasked-for judgements and criticisms. Time for me to seek out the spirit of the valley and rest in her sweet embrace. Me too , I just dont know where the hell she is. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 28, 2014 Me too , I just dont know where the hell she is. Yes, that's the hard part. She is ever-present but shows herself only when she knows we are ready. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted March 28, 2014 Yes, that's the hard part. She is ever-present but shows herself only when she knows we are ready. Very very weird Mh, prophetic , , I was thinking on it -the spirit of the valley , and a frog appeared , I let it go outside. Then I was thinking about low hanging fruit, and a piece of tiramisu appeared and it was very tasty . Very very weird. I hope I didnt just jinx it though. Very very weird. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Green Tiger Posted March 28, 2014 Here is verse 84 Following the way is a sacred path. It has been sacred since the very beginning and shall be at the very end. Following the way requires strength. Not just physical but mental and spiritual too. The sacred path was called by the Ancient Masters 'Daoist Heart'. Many start on the path with wrong beginnings. Many start on the path for the wrong reasons. Many start on the path for fame and fortune. But only very few make themselves like trees. Stretching forth to Heaven with an open and humble heart, the way becomes clearer to such men. That which goes against the Dao will never last. The first 8 lines are pretty abstract, but I really like the tree image in 9 and 10. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 28, 2014 Very very weird Mh, prophetic , , I was thinking on it -the spirit of the valley , and a frog appeared , I let it go outside. Then I was thinking about low hanging fruit, and a piece of tiramisu appeared and it was very tasty . Very very weird. I hope I didnt just jinx it though. Very very weird. Nice experiences you are having. Yes, life is weird sometimes. Those are the times we just experience and don't try to understand. I doubt the spirit of the valley can be jinxed. I'm almost sure enough about that to say I "know" she cannot be jinxed. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 28, 2014 Note to Flowing Hands: Please excuse my using this thread for a place to communicate but right now this thread and "Watching The Birds" are the only two threads I feel at peace when I am reading or posting to it. When you are ready to post the next chapters I will hush my mouth so that they can be spoken to. Thanks for understanding. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted March 29, 2014 (edited) Ok You will have to forgive my use of some words as I can't really find any other to express what Li Erh said to me. Stosh and MH can continue their chat after they have been educated!!!! Verse 88 Edited November 16, 2014 by flowing hands 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted March 29, 2014 (edited) Verse 89 Edited November 16, 2014 by flowing hands 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 29, 2014 Those that seek the Dao should be mindful of the way they seek the Dao. Should we even seek the Dao? Personally, I think not. No seeking to do, it is right there, right if front of our face. Emptying the mind is necessary, sure. I'm not sure about emptying the heart though.That is, unless we are speaking of our emotional baggage when we say the heart. Didn't Lao Tzu tell us to stay with the fruit and not the flower? Or was that Chuang Tzu? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 29, 2014 Yep. I know about thorn bushes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted March 29, 2014 Because we have lost it we need to find it again. The world would be a different place if we all found it! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted March 29, 2014 Yes, that is a valid perspective. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
