Ok! I think I got it!

[TheExaltedRonin]

My relentless onslaught towards thoughts have been solved.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong: since I've began studying zen and Buddhism I have had the wrong idea on what to do with thoughts.

 

Taoism: let the thoughts flow naturally but do not give them any value or attachment.

 

Buddhism: cancel all thoughts.

 

Zen: cancel all thoughts.

[thelerner]

Two bits about that:

1> Cancel all thoughts, is probably over simplifying Buddhists philosophy on thinking.

2> Zen's longer title is Zen Buddhism, so its not necessarily so different from the many other forms of Buddhism.

[C T]

My relentless onslaught towards thoughts have been solved.

 

 

* Buddhism: cancel all thoughts.

 

* Zen: cancel all thoughts.

* I dont think such a premise exists in Buddhist practice.

 

Trying to cancel thoughts is like trying to separate water by cutting it with a knife.

[TheExaltedRonin]

Well this is true. I guess I should've said to "relinquish as many thoughts as possible and realize they will come back".

[ChiDragon]

Well this is true. I guess I should've said to "relinquish as many thoughts as possible and realize they will come back".

 

You'll become enlightened when your thoughts came back.

[zanshin]

You might be overthinking your thoughts. Not much you can do with them by thinking about them. I like the comparison to cutting water with a knife. The water won't clear if you keep stirring it about. Stay calm and it may settle and clear without so much effort.

[johndoe2012]

....

Edited January 11, 2015 by johndoe2012

[TheExaltedRonin]

Without a doubt I'm over thinking them. Its the hardest for me. I've been clinically diagnosed with a HIGH level of OCD. hence my findings into taoism.

 

Due to OCD I spend 4-8 hours a day focusing on each and everything about taoism. Learning EVERY aspect and putting it all into practice.

 

I feel I've done extremely well but I'm completely blocked at the thoughts. That's the only thing left for me to conquer and it will be the most difficult due to my handicap.

 

Unfortunately some people consider themselves to be wise sages and give me metaphors and one liners that make 0 sense to myself and themselves.

 

Thank you @zanshin for giving me the simplest answer I've received yet. I need to look at this in its most basic form or my OCD overcomplicates and extends the general problems.

[Marblehead]

I am known for my one-liners but they are always meant either as a joke or as inspiration to cause others to think.

 

I really don't like trying to give advice because there is always so much more that I would need to consider than was made available in the post seeking advice.

 

But you are correct, dealing with our thoughts is very difficult to handle. They come whenever they want to. Can't really stop them. The question then must be, What are we going to do about them?

 

A good book that has been qouted from a couple times recently is "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron. It is Buddhist oriented but none-the-less of great value.

[thetaoiseasy]

.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thetaoiseasy

[Brian]

The mind is a sneaky bastard, isn't it?

[deci belle]

Taoism: let the thoughts flow naturally but do not give them any value or attachment.

 

Buddhism: cancel all thoughts.

 

Zen: cancel all thoughts.

 

Seeing mind isn't canceling anything, if that means trying to control the human mentality.

 

One must be clear here. Zen is Mind (for example), whereas various disciplines of practice (aimed at reining in the human mentality) isn't Zen, it's practice.

 

Chinese buddhism derivative of the five schools attributed to the lineage of Bodhidharma IS Zen. Of these, there are two main branches, Linchi (Rinzai) and Caodong (Soto). Their traditional differences are by the one concentrating on koan study and the other utilizing silent observation. Zen is how you say Chan in Japanese. Dogen brought it back with him to Japan (not that it wasn't his essential mind since before his parents were born) in the 1200's. There, Zen schools acquired a veneer of spiritual militarism for a period of time influenced by the Shogunate, though that is not the case (and was never the case) in terms of authentic transmission.

 

Chan means deep, obscure, clear, profound.

 

There is no difference at all between these traditions. They all point directly to the mind itself. Mind is not the thinking apparatus. Thought is the seat of the false identity that has usurped a rational dominion over the organism. Mind is your own awareness right now. Sudden enlightenment is seeing your mind as your true identity for the first time.

 

Buddhism is activating the mind without dwelling on its contents. Self-refinement is observation of mind without minding its contents.

 

Chinese culture has been affirming the essential unity of the three teachings (Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism) for at least a thousand years.

 

What is refined is the human mentality.

 

What to do with thoughts?

 

Note them without following them unawares. Seeing them as they come from nowhere is observation. When you become aware of them without following them, thoughts return to nowhere— this is called stopping. it is not that one really stops them, because in timely, accurate observation, they cease to exist of themselves.

 

There are countless treatises and manuals in the buddhist and taoist canons referring to "stopping and seeing". Stopping and seeing is another way to say concentration and insight.

 

One does nothing with the thoughts, unless, of course, one needs to think.

[Icedude]

I may not have read through a single book of the Tipitaka, but (to put it as bluntly as you're putting it yourself) I'm convinced that you're wrong on all accounts.

 

 

Firstly it's wrong because you are phrasing it as rules without reasons. I've never gotten Soto Zen, and I don't think I ever will, but simply imitating the Buddha by acting like he did, or thinking like he did after enlightenment, won't teleport you to enlightenment.

 

 

Secondly, I'm going to pick apart the three categories:

 

While taoism doesn't recognize any values as absolute (like its contrast Confucius did), it does recognize that people invent or adopt things like values, attachments and meanings naturally. As long as you are aware of these values being your own invention or your own adoption, you're perfectly free to have them. You're also perfectly free to just throw all values away, but I doubt that would make you any more enlightened. That just means that you have ended up pathless. Usually boredom settles in after that.

 

On the contrary, Buddhism is about a *million* thoughts. It's about being mindful of numerous lists of conduct, or at least the four noble truths, to adopt Buddhas way of thinking. ...but Buddha didn't turn into a vegetable after becoming enlightened. What he *did* do was to "stop" his *desires*. Thoughts and desires/attachments, are two separate things. To somebody with OCD it may *look* like thoughts and desires are one, but they're really not.

 

Like I said, I don't get Soto Zen. Maybe that one is about simply stopping thoughts, but I'd like to think that there's something less barbaric behind that tradition. It's most likely about calming desires as well. That's usually what meditation is about: Seeing a thought or emotion approach, letting the thought or emotion be thought, and seeing it leave again, without attaching to it. Thoughts and emotions that are stopped at the door to your mind, will probably pound on it until they break it down, making meditation a stressful experience instead of a calming one.

 

When it comes to Rinzai Zen, it's about thinking with focus on a koan. This will cancel other thoughts, and some say that that is the purpose of Rinzai meditation. I personally [removed spelling error] think that the koans contain the necessary wisdom themselves, but I'm somewhat of a Rinzai abomination.

 

 

Thirdly, I think you should question any religion, philosophy or any person, that tells you how to think without telling you why. I am in turn not going to tell you why you should think like I say.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Icedude

[Marblehead]

Thirdly, I think you should question any religion, philosophy or any person, that tells you how to think without telling you why. I am in turn not going to tell you why you should think like I say.

Well, at minimum, I agree with this.

[zanshin]

Maybe try this way. From neurological perspective the left neocortex is a really big special deal in humans. Reasoning, analyzing and especially language is a hallmark of our species. Sort of ironic this is going to be all words. Most people are very focused in the left neocortex all the time- unless they are daydreaming in imaginary world which would be more right neocortex. But then they get bad at intuition and simple things like knowing when the weather will change, when danger is coming and even what their feelings are. So for mindfulness, you can't go for a walk and have no thoughts with your brain completely turned off since then you could fall in a hole or get eaten by a predator. But you really don't need words to go take your walk, prehistoric man could go take a walk with a very different awareness than most modern people before those language centers in the neocortex developed, but what did he think about when he walked?

[Marblehead]

He likely thought about the Sabre Toothed lurking in the background.

 

Or maybe where he would go hunting tomorrow.

 

Or maybe short skirts and bikinis.

[Stosh]

.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Stosh

[zanshin]

He likely thought about the Sabre Toothed lurking in the background.

 

Or maybe where he would go hunting tomorrow.

 

Or maybe short skirts and bikinis.

That's the 4 Fs that modern man has definitely not evolved past. But not thinking in words since he didn't know any. More like natural action following awareness, he knew where the sabre tooth was in the first place and didn't go there. He knew where to hunt tomorrow and no need for big campfire discussion and analysis, more time for other fun things.

[Marblehead]

.

Good point Stosh!

[Stosh]

Good point Stosh!

Thanks , I made a silly comment , feeling a little silly this morning , but figured it would just constitute a distraction and walked away from it .

Making comments about what other people think ,, is fraught with suppositions

( yep we all do it)

Considering the random thought generators we have,..

Edited March 18, 2014 by Stosh

[idiot_stimpy]

Nothing need be felt, nothing need be thought about, nothing need be concentrated on, nothing need be understood, nothing need be realized, nothing need be purified, nothing need be gained, nothing need be resisted, to be in the present moment.

[Marblehead]

While that is true those things are going to happen anyhow.

[Stosh]

.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Stosh

[SonOfTheGods]

.

Edited March 19, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[Marblehead]

Yes, there is a difference between saying we know something absolute and acknowledging that we do have some knowledge of some things that are functional.