Thoughts on Ukraine / Russia Debacle?!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Wrote an introduction Blog post on Ukraine, as I'm from there and I believe it be interesting to look deeper within my mind and heart, to see if there is anything that would be interesting to share.

 

http://leonidbasin.blogspot.com/2014/03/thoughts-on-ukraine-russia-debacle.html

[thelerner]

Its a situation thats hard to get a good grasp of. I'd be interested in reading more from locals and people who have a first hand sense of whats going on and whats led to it. Too much of the media focus is polarized

 

I hope the situation doesn't expand or explode much. From what I've read it was an honest vote. We may not like it, but if Crimea had an honest vote to join Russia, then .. I.. wish'em well and mostly don't care.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Its a situation thats hard to get a good grasp of. I'd be interested in reading more from locals and people who have a first hand sense of whats going on and whats led to it. Too much of the media focus is polarized

 

I hope the situation doesn't expand or explode much. From what I've read it was an honest vote. We may not like it, but if Crimea had an honest vote to join Russia, then .. I.. wish'em well and mostly don't care.

Yeah, it's up to the people, but I will definitely try to give my 2 cents and see where that leads. Thank you for reading/commenting!

[Marblehead]

I think it is important to remember that many, if not most, of the people living in the Crimea are Russian or at least pro-Russian. And too, Russia has vested interests in that area. Russian oil and gas pipelines run through the area.

[joeblast]

the IMF would just love to bail out the ukraine and help it just like cyprus, greece...just look at how well every nation does that gets an IMF bailout...we're here to help, of course...

 

and russia still hasnt forgotten nato's cold war containment strategy, for that still seems to be in execution, "soviet" collapse or not. (dollar/eu collapse, or not...)

[Marblehead]

Yep. Valid considerations. The US government sure is straining hard to screw things up even more over there right now. And we just authorized giving Ukraine a billion dollars so their politicians can further corrupt their country.

[joeblast]

73% turnout in Crimea's election.

 

and the EU calls it illegitimate

 

the EU is more illegitimate, IMHO

[ralis]

the IMF would just love to bail out the ukraine and help it just like cyprus, greece...just look at how well every nation does that gets an IMF bailout...we're here to help, of course...

 

and russia still hasnt forgotten nato's cold war containment strategy, for that still seems to be in execution, "soviet" collapse or not. (dollar/eu collapse, or not...)

 

I would suggest reviewing historical accounts in regards to the formation of the Soviet Union, The Warsaw Pact, Comecon, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Then you might begin to understand the history of that region. Furthermore, it was the Soviets that built the wall and created a police state in Eastern Germany. After WWII the Soviets acquired the technological means to build nuclear weapons which led to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

You seem to be implying that the 'Cold War' was the fault of the West.

 

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/soviet-invasion-czechoslavkia

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union

[ralis]

I have read some accounts that more Russian military adventurism may be in the near future. Does this pose a threat to Europe in terms of the economy of the region? Putin wanting to restore the old USSR?

Edited March 17, 2014 by ralis

[ChiDragon]

Yep. Valid considerations. The US government sure is straining hard to screw things up even more over there right now. And we just authorized giving Ukraine a billion dollars so their politicians can further corrupt their country.

 

.... and that is not too Wu Wei, is it...???

[ralis]

Here are a few Reuters articles.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/17/us-russia-economy-crisis-idUSBREA2G0RF20140317

 

Reuters article linked to Huffingtonpost.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/17/crimea-votes-russia_n_4978631.html

Edited March 17, 2014 by ralis

[soaring crane]

One thing I refuse to do is believe a single word about it in the English- (or German-) language press. And I don't read Russian, so it's kind of a washout on my part in that respect.

 

I have however talked about it with Russian guys where I work a few times, and they insist that most of the people in the entire Ukraine identify with Russia more than with "western Europe", and they suspect Klitschko of handing out good sums of cash to buy support for his movement. He is of course a huge fan of the "west". I don't know any Ukrainians directly, though, so again, I can't really form a solid opinion on the matter.

 

The thing is, most of the people flapping their gums about it in the west don't have any more solid understanding of the situation than I do, yet they feel somehow entitled to pontificate and point fingers, and analyze and suggest courses of action. They're just disgraceful, imo.

[yabyum24]

It's basic strategic common sense. The Crimean population is mainly Russian. It belonged to Russia until recently. Russia has its naval bases etc. located there. Does anyone really expect them to hand that over to a nation that could potentially be a NATO member in the future?

 

Get real. Russia is only doing what any other major power would do in such circumstances. Why does the USA hold onto its base on Cuba? Why does Britain keep hold of the Falklands and Gibraltar? (security, economics and will of the population).

 

Rank hypocracy from the west on this one I'm afraid. Putin doesn't want the hassle of invading the Ukraine but he would be stupid to relinquish the Crimea.

[Marblehead]

 

.... and that is not too Wu Wei, is it...???

Very far from it.

[Marblehead]

Here are a few Reuters articles.

And it's all about money and the landed wealthy. Who get hurt? The common folks and those who are trying to get rid of the crooks.

[joeblast]

I would suggest reviewing historical accounts in regards to the formation of the Soviet Union, The Warsaw Pact, Comecon, and the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. Then you might begin to understand the history of that region. Furthermore, it was the Soviets that built the wall and created a police state in Eastern Germany. After WWII the Soviets acquired the technological means to build nuclear weapons which led to the Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

You seem to be implying that the 'Cold War' was the fault of the West.

 

http://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/soviet-invasion-czechoslavkia

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union

ah...eh...ralis...sorry brudda...another one of my posts that you didnt seem to comprehend what I was writing.

[ralis]

ah...eh...ralis...sorry brudda...another one of my posts that you didnt seem to comprehend what I was writing.

 

That is due to the fact that you fail to write in a clear precise manner. Your narrative is nothing more than fragmented opinions with no real context.

[ralis]

I have however talked about it with Russian guys where I work a few times, and they insist that most of the people in the entire Ukraine identify with Russia more than with "western Europe", and they suspect Klitschko of handing out good sums of cash to buy support for his movement. He is of course a huge fan of the "west". I don't know any Ukrainians directly, though, so again, I can't really form a solid opinion on the matter.

 

The Ukraine was included in the formation of the USSR in 1922. That is why Ukrainians relate to Russia.

[thelerner]

It's basic strategic common sense. The Crimean population is mainly Russian. It belonged to Russia until recently. Russia has its naval bases etc. located there. Does anyone really expect them to hand that over to a nation that could potentially be a NATO member in the future?

 

Get real. Russia is only doing what any other major power would do in such circumstances. Why does the USA hold onto its base on Cuba? Why does Britain keep hold of the Falklands and Gibraltar? (security, economics and will of the population).

 

Rank hypocrisy from the west on this one I'm afraid. Putin doesn't want the hassle of invading the Ukraine but he would be stupid to relinquish the Crimea.

All True, but its reflexive to worry/be scared of Russia in the West and there's good reason it. Russia has Ukraine and much of Europe by there Oily balls.

 

I'm kinda hoping for Wu Wei. Greater Ukraine will fall into a more Eurocentric orbit. Crimea joins Russia and is not the prize they think. It stokes nationalist pride, but has great costs in terms of money and problems w/ a large angry population that didn't want to become Soviet.

 

Unfortunately enlightened wu wei won't wash during an election year. It'll be seen as weakness and start a poorly thought out political ball of sanctions rolling.

[Dainin]

It's interesting how much concern the Russians show for the self-determination rights of the Crimeans versus the Chechnyans, Dagestanis, Tatars, Karelians, Chuvashians, Kalmyks, and other groups that THEY dominate and oppress.

 

(Note: I do not support the terrorist tactics used by some members of these groups).

[gendao]

Yep. Valid considerations. The US government sure is straining hard to screw things up even more over there right now. And we just authorized giving Ukraine a billion dollars so their politicians can further corrupt their country.

Obama is simply trying to execute what his puppetmaster, Zbigniew Brzezinski, already dictated back in 1997:

In 1997, Obama’s former foreign affairs adviser, and president Jimmy Carter’s national security adviser – Zbigniew Brzezinski – wrote a book called The Grand Chessboard arguing that the U.S. had to take control of Ukraine (as well as Azerbaijan, South Korea, Turkey and Iran) because they were “critically important geopolitical pivots”.

Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.

However, if Moscow regains control over Ukraine, with its 52 million people and major resources as well as access to the Black Sea, Russia automatically again regains the wherewithal to become a powerful imperial state, spanning Europe and Asia.

Understanding Brzezinski’s long-term view of Ukraine makes it easier to comprehend why the US has given $5 billion to Ukraine since 1991, and why today it is hyper-concerned about having Ukraine remain in its sphere of influence.

As is Schwartz "George Soros" György:

In January we reported on the cynical attempt by Soros to undermine Ukraine and other nations in the Russian Federation. Soros’ Open Society Institute, now known as Open Society Foundations (OSF), doles out grants to activist NGOs in central Europe and builds upon and continues the work of the Ford Foundation. Since the early 1950s, the CIA has used the Ford Foundation as a funding cover. Soros and a handful of U.S. organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy destabilize and overthrow governments, tasks formerly accomplished by the CIA.

The destabilization of the Ukrainian government is part of an ongoing geostrategic move by the globalists to undermine any challenge to their hegemonic designs. Libya suffered the result of what is essentially an order out of chaos plan. A similar plan on Russia’s frontier is now underway.

Billionaire investor/activist George Soros has a giant footprint in Ukraine. Similar to his operations in dozens of other nations, he has, over the past couple of decades, poured tens of millions of dollars into Ukrainian non-governmental organizations (NGOs)

Many of the participants in Kiev’s “EuroMaidan” demonstrations were members of Soros-funded NGOs and/or were trained by the same NGOs in the many workshops and conferences sponsored by Soros’ International Renaissance Foundation (IRF), and his various Open Society institutes and foundations.

[yabyum24]

All True, but its reflexive to worry/be scared of Russia in the West and there's good reason it. Russia has Ukraine and much of Europe by there Oily balls.

Sort of... but the truth is, they need our currency as much as we need their oil and gas. Both sides stand to lose if there's confrontation and the Crimea is just not worth it.

 

I'm kinda hoping for Wu Wei. Greater Ukraine will fall into a more Eurocentric orbit. Crimea joins Russia and is not the prize they think. It stokes nationalist pride, but has great costs in terms of money and problems w/ a large angry population that didn't want to become Soviet.

The majority on the Crimea are ethnic Russians and want to be part of Russia. Let's face it, if I were an ethnic Russian in the Ukraine right now, I'd be scared of the Ukrainian Nazi groups. They are not saying nice things about ethnic Russians. There is a history in the Ukraine of Nazi support going back to WW2 and the neo nazis are consciously harking back to this "heritage".

 

Whilst the majority of normal Ukrainians are good people who just want a better life, there is a sizable group with a fascist agenda. These guys were instrumental in the violent edge of the opposition and now consider a large share of the 'spoils' to be theirs by right. The threat of Russian action may be the only thing keeping the lid on a bit of follow-up "ethnic cleansing".

 

Unfortunately enlightened wu wei won't wash during an election year. It'll be seen as weakness and start a poorly thought out political ball of sanctions rolling.

True. The response has been badly thought out and is totally inappropriate.

[ralis]

Obama is simply trying to execute what his puppetmaster, Zbigniew Brzezinski, already dictated back in 1997:

As is Schwartz "George Soros" György:

 

Posting the ramblings of Alex Jones is not exactly credible. Have you read Zbigniew Brzezinski's book? That book is on my reading list and to take Jones word which is most likely out of context does not make a valid argument via your cut/paste.

[Marblehead]

Sure, it's all about money for the wealthy. But the common people get screwed. Even I have to pay with my income taxes.

[ralis]

Sort of... but the truth is, they need our currency as much as we need their oil and gas. Both sides stand to lose if there's confrontation and the Crimea is just not worth it.

 

The majority on the Crimea are ethnic Russians and want to be part of Russia. Let's face it, if I were an ethnic Russian in the Ukraine right now, I'd be scared of the Ukrainian Nazi groups. They are not saying nice things about ethnic Russians. There is a history in the Ukraine of Nazi support going back to WW2 and the neo nazis are consciously harking back to this "heritage".

 

Whilst the majority of normal Ukrainians are good people who just want a better life, there is a sizable group with a fascist agenda. These guys were instrumental in the violent edge of the opposition and now consider a large share of the 'spoils' to be theirs by right. The threat of Russian action may be the only thing keeping the lid on a bit of follow-up "ethnic cleansing".

 

True. The response has been badly thought out and is totally inappropriate.

 

You have a keen understanding as to the political dynamics and history of the region.