I want a diploma.

[Icedude]

A few things...

 

The most advanced and experienced practitioners I have ever met (and very likely will ever meet) in spirituality, magic, qigong and martial arts ALL were completely unknown, had no diplomas whatsoever, and most people have never heard of them!

 

The whole difficult to hang out with people thing.... well since we are using me as an example lol, I am very extremely fortunate in that ALL the people I know are spiritual practitioners. This was partially purposeful and partially that folks not on similar paths as myself and I just don't mesh or connect. Also when I meet people and think perhaps they are not on a similar path, once we get to talking, we find out that each other is. Practitioners are just drawn to one another.

 

For that sort of test, I guess you could ask any decent level practitioner (try for over 20 years in, 40 is better, to make sure their own personal biases don't get in the way), and ask them "soooo how do you think I'm doing on the whole enlightenment thing? Have I reached nirvana yet?" Though most would look at you like you have been smoking some low grade something or another for asking .

 

Hmmmm, that whole wanting others to listen to you, and pass along some super amazing teachings to them thing is really overrated . I am a bit of a cynic I'll admit, but unfortunately what modern society looks for is physical appearance, fancy posters and websites, and well worded promo ads... well OK maybe diplomas too, but I've not heard of any for enlightenment or nirvana before. Though really, would you want acolytes who are naive enough to fall for the whole diploma thing?

 

I'm curious now why you want this? Because you love teaching? So you can feel important? So you can increase your self worth? So you can make some extra money from it? So you actually have respect from your fellow human beings? Have you found that in general people don't listen to you? It is also a certain air about them that teachers and leaders have that makes people want to follow them. Though at the same time humbleness is what draws people to most teachers.

 

Personally I feel that people who are impressed with me due to external fancy stuff like that are not worth my time (did I mention cynical? Did I also mention still working on stuff? lol)

 

One thing I have found is that the people who have told me they are enlightened were the least enlightened of folks I have met lol, no idea if this is always the case, but amongst magicians it sure seems to be lol. I think even the Dalai Lama when asked if he is enlightened laughed . Also I think once we are enlightened we start to notice we can do some neat stuff....like... not think all the time, manifest stuff, not be 100% physical all the time, or whatever other odd and interesting things. Though I'm only talking about this from things I have seen and noticed and from an outside (tourist) perspective. (personally enlightenment is not on my to do list, but I do see it is a very good goal for other people as it seems to improve people).

 

PS I'm not enlightened, and any possible times of nirvana were short lived, I'm just using myself as an example because people do try to ask me to teach them stuff, and I have taught lots of people, and I know and have spent time around a lot of spiritual people, some of which I personally feel have made it very far along the path. I am also in teaching retirement and quite like it this way .

 

 

I'm not looking to be "heard of", but I am looking to be understood and listened to. I know this girl who thought I would beat her up if we met, this after a year of speaking with her. People formulate their own ideas of other people, sometimes completely independent of reality. When not even your fiancé can understand who you are, or what you're saying, because she's so caught up in her own world, then you need external help. Magic, qigong and martial arts, can be demonstrated pretty much in an undeniable way. Spirituality less so.

 

Yes, going to a temple and asking a decent level practitioner, seems like a good plan. I just hope they know what they're doing.

 

Again, I'm not looking to be reknowned even in my local area. I'm just looking for a certificate in case people are doubting me. I'm not looking for "acolytes", but yes, the certificate are there for "naïve" people who trust material things.

 

We seem to have different definitions of who is worthy of being taught. To me it's a waste to teach people who are already on their way to enlightenment, compared to people who suffer the most from lack of understanding and who are fixated with material things. Why people would even *want* to pay me for something I can't seem to offer for free, is a strange thought. However, once I didn't give away $60 to somebody as a lesson. I don't have a need for money. I have a bed, food, clothes, and an internet connection. I don't get what else you would need in life. I'm already spoiled. I think I'd rather pay people to listen.

 

I want to teach for the same reason that any bodhisattwa would want to teach, and most school teachers would want to teach: For people to learn.

 

Still, I wouldn't like being followed. Even being respected feels uncomfortable to me, but I still seem to need some amount of respect to be understood, which I currently lack.

 

I don't think I have an air other than the air that people make up about me. Some people think that I must surely stalk the streets at night, peeking into the bedrooms of women. Other people think other things. Rumours are not air. ...but I reckon I have an uncanny *lack* of air, which sometimes drives people crazy. It comes from my lack of identity - my lack of self.

 

It is the people who are impressed with things like diplomas that I want to reach. They're the ones who are worth my time.

 

 

>One thing I have found is that the people who have told me they are enlightened were the least enlightened of folks I have met

 

Well, that's why I'm looking to get tested. I've known for many years that I don't think like other people, and there's something off when I eat koans like a bag of chips and just understand everything.

 

Imagine that you're about to begin a big marathon, and at the start of the gun, everybody finds it really hard to move, like they're stuck to the ground. Everybody but you, who can move freely. You ask them what's wrong, and they tell you that they're unable to move for probably eons and eons, and that they're certainly not going to finish the marathon in *this* lifetime, and probably not the next one either. That sort of fills me with eerie dread, especially when they give me that look that I shouldn't be breaking the laws of physics by not having any problems. Being special means feeling alone and disgraceful.

 

The Dalai Lama considers himself to be a Bodhisattwa. All power to him, but I can't learn anything from him. The people I learn most from, are just normal people. Especially people who wakes emotion in me, are awesome teachers. (DarkSydePhil on YouTube: Excellent Dukkha artist. Always whines and complains. I can listen to him for hours. He's my meditation.)

 

Not thinking all the time, is fairly easy.

Manifesting stuff? Physical things out of thin air? Never done it.

Not be 100% physical all the time? Depends on what you mean. If is means your body physically turning untouchable, I've never done it.

 

Thank you for reading through all of this. I'll probably go to sleep soon.

[Icedude]

Wanting people to listen to you?

 

Thats just wrong in general its not you that they are listening to its the truth that comes thru you that they will listen to.

 

But enlightenment is paradoxial but the truth of it isnt.

 

Meaning that if you did bump into someone and the tao spoke thru you to tell them something. That person would only remember part of what you said at that time which they felt was relevant to them at that time.

 

Wise words dont always come from wise people.....it is the spirit of truth that is conveyed in the message.

 

Whether its the sound of a bird gong or just someone saying hello to you that can light up your day or make you reflect on things.

 

Its the tao reaching out to us.

 

We only act in accordance with the spirit and energy of the tao.

 

Is wanting to be listened to not part of the tao?

I thought that was part of most of tao.

 

However, I doubt that I act in accordance with the tao. A tao master out looking to enlight people, doesn't act in accordance with the tao. He chooses his own direction and speed, and he's out to stop people. I doubt that such an act of tao terrorism, is a natural flow of the tao.

[ThisLife]

*

 

An American sage, Robert Adams, once suggested that it would be amusing to have an “Enlightened Beings” convention, and that anyone who showed up would be automatically disqualified.

*

[Stosh]

^{You have some conflicting motivations , it seems , resolve them and then take the path it suggests No?}

[Icedude]

An American sage, Robert Adams, once suggested that it would be amusing to have an “Enlightened Beings” convention, and that anyone who showed up would be automatically disqualified.

 

Are conventions that foolish?

What has conventions ever done to Robert Adams?

 

 

^{You have some conflicting motivations , it seems , resolve them and then take the path it suggests No?}

 

Why? That's kind of what you do when you're enlightened: You don't resolve your conflicts. Instead you just sit down amongst your conflicts and you toss them up in the air and go "Whee! ".

Edited March 18, 2014 by Icedude

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Why? That's kind of what you do when you're enlightened: You don't resolve your conflicts. Instead you just sit down amongst your conflicts and you toss them up in the air and go "Whee! ".

 

Cause you might end up like this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/14/bikram-yoga-sexual-assault-lawsuit

[silent thunder]

Imagine my ex and the Dalai Lama walking down the street in a relationship.

The Dalai Lama wears normal clothes, else people would laugh at him, and probably incarcerate him.

Officially, he is nothing more than her "muppet".

They never speak of deep things or even emotions. She just prefers to watch TV.

Her life is filled with hate and fear and misery and an endless chase after meaningless things.

Occationally the Dalai Lama tries to convey some sort of wisdom that he thinks is suitable for her, but she dismisses it as "rubbish talk" before she even considers it.

One day she has a random emotional breakdown for little to no reason. She cries and she feels extremely ashamed and somehow she decides it's his fault, as he's talking to her at the time. The stupid useless muppet is thrown out, and is told to never even contact her again. She decides to live a life in complete misery instead.

The Dalai Lama thinks back to the moment when he actually admitted to her that he was a zen master. The reply was "In what game?".

 

This is why I need a diploma: So that people can take me seriously enough to listen to me.

Speak your truth.

The wisdom of your words will convey the credentials if the listener is listening with the intent to understand, instead of the intent to respond.

[thamosh]

Is wanting to be listened to not part of the tao?

I thought that was part of most of tao.

 

However, I doubt that I act in accordance with the tao. A tao master out looking to enlight people, doesn't act in accordance with the tao. He chooses his own direction and speed, and he's out to stop people. I doubt that such an act of tao terrorism, is a natural flow of the tao.

 

The wanting is not tao at some point you have to let go and let tao.

 

The truth is you cant enlighten someone. You can not control when someone awakens. You can only help do so when the spirit of the student is inline for this and the teacher's spirit is inline for this as well. The timing of this is out of your hands.

 

Spiritual teaching should not come from motivations of pride or money or status but only when the spiritual call to teach should the teacher come forth.

 

The tao is very real....its no just philosophy....

 

When the time is right the tao will call you forth.

[Icedude]

Cause you might end up like this: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/14/bikram-yoga-sexual-assault-lawsuit

 

Everybody may end up in sexual assault lawsuits. It's like the flu.

However, it takes a certain speed (desire) to end up responsible for one, and I see no point in building up speed. I'm satisfied with having enough conflicts to keep me sitting here typing.

 

 

Speak your truth.

The wisdom of your words will convey the credentials if the listener is listening with the intent to understand, instead of the intent to respond.

 

Yes, but how do I even get the intent to understand? That's what this thread is about.

 

 

 

The wanting is not tao at some point you have to let go and let tao.

 

The truth is you cant enlighten someone. You can not control when someone awakens. You can only help do so when the spirit of the student is inline for this and the teacher's spirit is inline for this as well. The timing of this is out of your hands.

 

Spiritual teaching should not come from motivations of pride or money or status but only when the spiritual call to teach should the teacher come forth.

 

The tao is very real....its no just philosophy....

 

When the time is right the tao will call you forth.

 

You have a horrible attitude. I disagree with almost everything you typed.

 

First of all, you've fallen into a spiritual trap. It's easy to just say "Give up wanting. Give up typing. Don't post. Shut up." in every situation, because that means you don't have to think about problems, and can always provide a copy-paste solution, but in this case that means a will from *your* end for any would be future students of mine to suffer. By stopping me, you're not stopping ten other people. Your copy-paste solution doesn't apply here. It's not impossible for me to give up wanting to teach, but that's up to me.

 

You say that it's impossible to enlighten someone, because you want me to give up. Still you admit that progress can be made if teacher and student is aligned. I want to align myself, and I want to use a material means to do so. Just thinking that everything is up to chance and fate, sounds very naïve to me. We can arrange the material world, to align material students into leaving the material world.

 

Again and again I hear this cynical "You're only doing this to be praised, get rich, and get status.", as if everybody coming here is just faking a spiritual call. I'm not from India. My only status will probably just be "That weird hippie guy.".

 

...so you have a horrible "holier than thou" cop-out, that you can get away with most of the time, but not right now.

 

 

Edit:

Please don't be hurt by my post. I mean the above in a firm but a most respectful manner.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Icedude

[Brian]

LMAO

[Stosh]

Why? That's kind of what you do when you're enlightened: You don't resolve your conflicts. Instead you just sit down amongst your conflicts and you toss them up in the air and go "Whee! ".

 

Well , Ill assume theres some light hearted sarcasm , RE my post, and it would indicate that what I said might be simplistic , and obvious, ..... and yes , it is simplistic and obvious ,,, therefore you should be noticing that it is basically true as well.. and then still further on that its actually sound advice. Now if you want me to refine to some more precise answer , I might not be able to give it, since I dont know the exactitudes of your circumstances.

You seem bright, do you really want someone picking your life apart and telling you what to do as if you were a small child?

I doubt it.. because I dont care for that either.

Im just suggesting where it is that I think your obstacle is , rather than tell you where some piece of paper can be acquired.

I understand the value of milestones, and so I agree it would be nice to get a diploma , because then you could wave that around and it would really simplify establishing credibility as a foundation for relating to various folks.

I do however doubt you put much stock in the diplomas of other people , and would continue to prod for validation even If I had one to wave. SO thats why I pointed at something simplistic and obvious there , and leave it to you whether you want to grab it or not.

[C T]

Who is the caller? Who is the called?

the one seeking a diploma, maybe?

 

"Clouds draw water from the ocean

to fall as rain on the earth. There is

neither increase nor decrease. Just so,

reality remains unaltered, like the pure sky."

(Saraha)

 

I think wanting a diploma is good. Its like wanting to learn to draw water from the ocean of wisdom so as to moisten minds that are scorched, barren, thirsty and on fire. As long as such minds exist, there will arise those who seek to bring the antidotes. Me, i prefer to understand the nature of the unalterable, that which neither increase nor decrease, but my light is yet dim, so there is a long way to go yet...

[Ya Mu]

whereas a veritable "associate's degree" presently has no difference in weight to a master of many years...

 

I think it is stupid to have the law require such levels of training and certification, with the associated quasi college level costs of it....it is just contributing to the higher education racket going on in this country...

 

but hey, when you're invested in the racket, I guess you look to do things to keep the racket going...

And chiropractors can legally needle people with only 100 hrs training...its a weird world, eh?.

[Ya Mu]

I don't think wanting a diploma in itself is a bad thing. But it certainly depends on what one is looking for.

 

For general spirituality I would say no such thing exists - and how would one test for it? Regurgitate memorized material? This is, IMO, the worst thing about academic education as it doesn't reflect what a person actually learned but just how well a person is able to memorize, with much of the memorized material useless in a practical application.

 

On the other hand, I can give an example of which a diploma can be a good thing. In my medical qigong certification program a person has to spend 500 hrs in direct training. But does that in itself give them the diploma? NO! Anyone receiving the diploma must be able to demonstrate wai qi liao fa in a direct and effective manner. For instance, this past weekend a person graduated. His test was to work on a client with a fairly intense headache. And was 75% pain elimination good enough? NO! I required 100% - and he passed. Each person passing must walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

In this case the diploma will give everyone walking into his clinic information that shows this person actually did study this material. It gives confidence in the therapist to the client. Much better than joe blow saying, yeah I read a book on clinical qigong and I am going to do that for you now. Clients do want to make sure a person is certified in what they are doing when they go to them for therapy. Certificate (from reliable institution recognized by other organizations) = good.

[Icedude]

Well , Ill assume theres some light hearted sarcasm , RE my post, and it would indicate that what I said might be simplistic , and obvious, ..... and yes , it is simplistic and obvious ,,, therefore you should be noticing that it is basically true as well.. and then still further on that its actually sound advice. Now if you want me to refine to some more precise answer , I might not be able to give it, since I dont know the exactitudes of your circumstances.

You seem bright, do you really want someone picking your life apart and telling you what to do as if you were a small child?

I doubt it.. because I dont care for that either.

Im just suggesting where it is that I think your obstacle is , rather than tell you where some piece of paper can be acquired.

I understand the value of milestones, and so I agree it would be nice to get a diploma , because then you could wave that around and it would really simplify establishing credibility as a foundation for relating to various folks.

I do however doubt you put much stock in the diplomas of other people , and would continue to prod for validation even If I had one to wave. SO thats why I pointed at something simplistic and obvious there , and leave it to you whether you want to grab it or not.

 

It's not sarcasm. Once you're aware that all your motivations for acting is based on your own illusions, there's really no point to acting, so when you act anyway, you know that it will create a conflict somehow. Just living and breathing will create ripples in existence. That's what life does: It sputters around fueled by its own illusions. I don't know what specific motivational conflict you were referring to, but everything I do, I do, not *because* there's a conflict, but *despite* there being a conflict. I see people suffering and I motivate myself to care about them. Why? Why not? I don't have anything better to do, so I might as well. It's what life is supposed to do: Something. My frontal lobe is intact, so I might as well follow it and let it take me on an adventure, and I have all this fantastical wisdom that would be a waste otherwise.

 

...but then again, is it really caring? Just like you're saying, many people don't want help, because it makes them feel dumb and embarrassed. There's a conflict, in that the response is pretty much random. Maybe them getting helped all the time will just spoil them weak. There's a conflict, and once again I don't care about it, because there's conflict no matter what I do. There's even conflict in sitting at home and doing absolutely nothing. People can judge everything and find me guilty if they want. I will always be a fiend in *some* light.

 

I'm not planning on "waving around" the piece of paper - I'm not looking for an achievement.

 

I know of a yoga teacher, and he's always so content that it looks like he's high on drugs all the freaking time, and underneath it there's seems to be this nasty level of smugness too, despite him refusing to talk about it. I don't know him personally, but I suspect that his smiling muscles must get tired if he's around people for too long.

 

I'm not like that. I didn't ask for this weird way of seeing things. I didn't ask to see people suffering around me, and knowing exactly why, and them not caring about anything I have to say on the matter. It's frustrating. It's just that I get everything, and I read that there's all these high and mighty descriptions of people who get what I get, so now I'm interested in if there's anything left to learn (and I'm not talking about learning common yoga techniques here), and also if a title could help me to get through to people.

 

Do I have faith in people who has diplomas in enlightenment? Yes, I do. I have faith enough to consider their words very carefully. Fake diplomas or genuine diplomas, these people cared enough to make themselves seem enlightened, and that makes it worth discussing deep things with them. Genuine or fake, it shows some level of spiritual dedication.

 

...but yes, of course I wouldn't just believe everything they told me, based on their diploma. If there's a "Mall" sign hanging over a building, that sign is there to indicate the strong possibility of a mall. ...so you go and check out the building, and there's a good change that you'll find at least an *attempt* of a mall, which is cool too. In the case of buddhism and taoism, you can find all sorts of weird malls, which are nothing like the other malls.

 

...and as for me, I'm looking to see at what level I'm at. There is something "really wrong" with me, and I'd like to figure out what name this "existential syndrome" has. I'm also generally looking for some kind of substance in these faiths, because it's a complete jungle of conflicting definitions, where the goal seems to lack a clear definition.

[thamosh]

You have a horrible attitude. I disagree with almost everything you typed.

 

First of all, you've fallen into a spiritual trap. It's easy to just say "Give up wanting. Give up typing. Don't post. Shut up." in every situation, because that means you don't have to think about problems, and can always provide a copy-paste solution, but in this case that means a will from *your* end for any would be future students of mine to suffer. By stopping me, you're not stopping ten other people. Your copy-paste solution doesn't apply here. It's not impossible for me to give up wanting to teach, but that's up to me.

 

You say that it's impossible to enlighten someone, because you want me to give up. Still you admit that progress can be made if teacher and student is aligned. I want to align myself, and I want to use a material means to do so. Just thinking that everything is up to chance and fate, sounds very naïve to me. We can arrange the material world, to align material students into leaving the material world.

 

Again and again I hear this cynical "You're only doing this to be praised, get rich, and get status.", as if everybody coming here is just faking a spiritual call. I'm not from India. My only status will probably just be "That weird hippie guy.".

 

...so you have a horrible "holier than thou" cop-out, that you can get away with most of the time, but not right now.

 

 

Edit:

Please don't be hurt by my post. I mean the above in a firm but a most respectful manner.

 

 

Wow that was a completely ignorant response.......And you want to teach people about enlightenment?

 

You didnt even understand what I posted. You instead responded to what you think I said instead of what I was actually talking about....

 

So yes get the piece of paper you are going to need it........

[adept]

You could use that zen diploma for toilet paper, that's all it's good for !

[thelerner]

Icedude, there's a very wise, down to earth buddhist dude that I think will resonate well with you. Michael McAllistair from infinite smile. You can listen to his podcasts ie dharma talks at infinitesmile.org. He has a huge number of them and I think they'd be up your alley. He's pretty hip, but hits deep subjects. Many of them are about Enlightenment. Its nature and the work involved getting there.

[Stosh]

It's not sarcasm. Once you're aware that all your motivations for acting is based on your own illusions, there's really no point to acting, so when you act anyway, you know that it will create a conflict somehow. Just living and breathing will create ripples in existence. That's what life does: It sputters around fueled by its own illusions. I don't know what specific motivational conflict you were referring to, but everything I do, I do, not *because* there's a conflict, but *despite* there being a conflict. I see people suffering and I motivate myself to care about them. Why? Why not? I don't have anything better to do, so I might as well. It's what life is supposed to do: Something. My frontal lobe is intact, so I might as well follow it and let it take me on an adventure, and I have all this fantastical wisdom that would be a waste otherwise.

 

...but then again, is it really caring? Just like you're saying, many people don't want help, because it makes them feel dumb and embarrassed. There's a conflict, in that the response is pretty much random. Maybe them getting helped all the time will just spoil them weak. There's a conflict, and once again I don't care about it, because there's conflict no matter what I do. There's even conflict in sitting at home and doing absolutely nothing. People can judge everything and find me guilty if they want. I will always be a fiend in *some* light.

 

I'm not planning on "waving around" the piece of paper - I'm not looking for an achievement.

 

I know of a yoga teacher, and he's always so content that it looks like he's high on drugs all the freaking time, and underneath it there's seems to be this nasty level of smugness too, despite him refusing to talk about it. I don't know him personally, but I suspect that his smiling muscles must get tired if he's around people for too long.

 

I'm not like that. I didn't ask for this weird way of seeing things. I didn't ask to see people suffering around me, and knowing exactly why, and them not caring about anything I have to say on the matter. It's frustrating. It's just that I get everything, and I read that there's all these high and mighty descriptions of people who get what I get, so now I'm interested in if there's anything left to learn (and I'm not talking about learning common yoga techniques here), and also if a title could help me to get through to people.

 

Do I have faith in people who has diplomas in enlightenment? Yes, I do. I have faith enough to consider their words very carefully. Fake diplomas or genuine diplomas, these people cared enough to make themselves seem enlightened, and that makes it worth discussing deep things with them. Genuine or fake, it shows some level of spiritual dedication.

 

...but yes, of course I wouldn't just believe everything they told me, based on their diploma. If there's a "Mall" sign hanging over a building, that sign is there to indicate the strong possibility of a mall. ...so you go and check out the building, and there's a good change that you'll find at least an *attempt* of a mall, which is cool too. In the case of buddhism and taoism, you can find all sorts of weird malls, which are nothing like the other malls.

 

...and as for me, I'm looking to see at what level I'm at. There is something "really wrong" with me, and I'd like to figure out what name this "existential syndrome" has. I'm also generally looking for some kind of substance in these faiths, because it's a complete jungle of conflicting definitions, where the goal seems to lack a clear definition.

Wow thats a rich ,revealing, and ...daunting post...( because theres a lot tied up together in there)

Some sarcasm would have been fine , even so , but forgive me for reading it so .. with exasperation umm its not a strange means of communicating .

Starting just somewhere,, You said that you feel this way ..

"Once you're aware that all your motivations for acting is based on your own illusions, there's really no point to acting, so when you act anyway, you know that it will create a conflict somehow"

I dont agree with that , and Ill give you my reasoning,,

First of all , like you said later ,, Life is supposed to DO something.

I agree that we are made in such a fashion that we have a role to play.. some folks feel that our role is decided by a god , society or a creator , OR as I do, that we self define the role we will play . But even if thats not the case, its a bummer to have nothing to do..and so committing to a bummer situation- that you can opt out of by definining a role for yourself -would be stupid, would it not?

 

Regarding illusions, when most people are told about illusions , they are thinking of magicians or liars or mistakes. But If one looks at what these things have in common , to define illusion, you may see that there is some kind of expectation which is not fulfilled and by not fulfilled , I mean that material evidence which would support said expectation is not to be found after the fact. The 'illusion' is not supported by objective evidence. The experience of living is also not provable to anyone else ,others can form conjecture , they may even be able to predict what you will do under certain circumstance but neither they nor I , can directly experience your life , and the only testimony I we could have about it , is that which you convey to us.

Otherwise worded,, subjective experience constitutes illusion.

 

 

All the intellectual considerations , even the evidence of the existence of matter energy and time has a degree of subjectivity as well , and these also are illusion,, for the same reason , but thats another whole thread.

Anyway , though all is illusionary , that does NOT mean all deserves disregard disparagement etc

 

If a baby was in pain , would it not be spiritually fitting to try to alleviate this pain ? even if it was all in the babys mind?

If you are sad or happy or fulfilled or at peace, ,is that not important because it is subjective?

 

The idea that all actions create conflict , if everything is illusion anyhow , would mean that the conflict is also illusion. The idea of conflict is based on some kind of relationship between things.

 

So your non-action ,done to avoid operating on an illusion based paradigm , would serve only to avoid another illusion based paradigm!

 

and yes there is are terms in regular psychology for existential dillemmas , life roles etc

But Pick one thing at a time , I still think youre juggling too many things at once here.

If you bought something like umm a camera, or a dinner , or a medicine,, youd recognize

it would be rash to immediately throw it in a closet without looking at it ,

or in the trash without testing its merits , etc

without getting any return on your investment!

Likewise ,of the spiritual teachings , youve exposed yourself to,

at least SOME have quality , and you could wisely slow down and give them a thorough run.

Get the value out of them , because dismissing everything as pointless illusion and all actions doomed to inevitable conflict ..

IS A BUMMER ! and no one has been trying to send you the message that your life is supposed to suck.

 

Forget the diploma , you can print one up at Kinkos AFTER the game is won.

Ironically though , you wont need it then , will you?

 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2014 by Stosh

[Icedude]

Wow that was a completely ignorant response.......And you want to teach people about enlightenment?

You didnt even understand what I posted. You instead responded to what you think I said instead of what I was actually talking about....

So yes get the piece of paper you are going to need it........

 

I bet that either one of us could use a paper to wave around right now, because this distrust is exactly what I mean.

 

 

 

You could use that zen diploma for toilet paper, that's all it's good for !

 

Then why doesn't the Dalai Lama wipe his ass with his robe?

 

 

 

Icedude, there's a very wise, down to earth buddhist dude that I think will resonate well with you. Michael McAllistair from infinite smile. You can listen to his podcasts ie dharma talks at infinitesmile.org. He has a huge number of them and I think they'd be up your alley. He's pretty hip, but hits deep subjects. Many of them are about Enlightenment. Its nature and the work involved getting there.

 

Thank you.

I'll go and ask him.

 

 

Wow thats a rich ,revealing, and ...daunting post...( because theres a lot tied up together in there)

Some sarcasm would have been fine , even so , but forgive me for reading it so .. with exasperation umm its not a strange means of communicating .

Starting just somewhere,, You said that you feel this way ..

"Once you're aware that all your motivations for acting is based on your own illusions, there's really no point to acting, so when you act anyway, you know that it will create a conflict somehow"

I dont agree with that , and Ill give you my reasoning,,

First of all , like you said later ,, Life is supposed to DO something.

I agree that we are made in such a fashion that we have a role to play.. some folks feel that our role is decided by a god , society or a creator , OR as I do, that we self define the role we will play . But even if thats not the case, its a bummer to have nothing to do..and so committing to a bummer situation- that you can opt out of by definining a role for yourself -would be stupid, would it not?

 

Regarding illusions, when most people are told about illusions , they are thinking of magicians or liars or mistakes. But If one looks at what these things have in common , to define illusion, you may see that there is some kind of expectation which is not fulfilled and by not fulfilled , I mean that material evidence which would support said expectation is not to be found after the fact. The 'illusion' is not supported by objective evidence. The experience of living is also not provable to anyone else ,others can form conjecture , they may even be able to predict what you will do under certain circumstance but neither they nor I , can directly experience your life , and the only testimony I we could have about it , is that which you convey to us.

Otherwise worded,, subjective experience constitutes illusion.

 

 

All the intellectual considerations , even the evidence of the existence of matter energy and time has a degree of subjectivity as well , and these also are illusion,, for the same reason , but thats another whole thread.

Anyway , though all is illusionary , that does NOT mean all deserves disregard disparagement etc

 

If a baby was in pain , would it not be spiritually fitting to try to alleviate this pain ? even if it was all in the babys mind?

If you are sad or happy or fulfilled or at peace, ,is that not important because it is subjective?

 

The idea that all actions create conflict , if everything is illusion anyhow , would mean that the conflict is also illusion. The idea of conflict is based on some kind of relationship between things.

 

So your non-action ,done to avoid operating on an illusion based paradigm , would serve only to avoid another illusion based paradigm!

 

and yes there is are terms in regular psychology for existential dillemmas , life roles etc

But Pick one thing at a time , I still think youre juggling too many things at once here.

If you bought something like umm a camera, or a dinner , or a medicine,, youd recognize

it would be rash to immediately throw it in a closet without looking at it ,

or in the trash without testing its merits , etc

without getting any return on your investment!

Likewise ,of the spiritual teachings , youve exposed yourself to,

at least SOME have quality , and you could wisely slow down and give them a thorough run.

Get the value out of them , because dismissing everything as pointless illusion and all actions doomed to inevitable conflict ..

IS A BUMMER ! and no one has been trying to send you the message that your life is supposed to suck.

 

Forget the diploma , you can print one up at Kinkos AFTER the game is won.

Ironically though , you wont need it then , will you?

 

I was replying to somebody complaing about how I'm acting in a conflicting way. At this very moment where *all* letting kittens starve in Africa. What is that saying about us? ...and if we're over in Africa nursing kittens, we're certainly not working for world peace in the UN at the same time. Wouldn't world peace save a lot of kittens? We're all hypocritical bastards by our very limited nature. Everything we do is stupid and full of conflict, whether we want it to be or not. Pointing that out is hardly a feat. You can turn every action on its head, but all you're doing then, is just saying ”F***ing Icedude, man... He thinks he's all that, but he's clearly not.”.

You later say that I'm ”juggling too many things”. According to who? According to you. To you there's an amount of things, or certain things, that is ”too much” for you to ”juggle”. If you were in my seat you wouldn't be able to handle it, so you can't imagine how that amount could be ”healthy”.

 

You say that it's a bummer to have nothing to do, so that continuing to do nothing instead of defining a role for yourself, would be stupid. I'm part buddhist, so I happen to think buddhahood and Nirvana is fine too.

 

Your definition of ”illusion”, where you think that the experience of other people living is an illusion, seems based on ”a brain in a vat”, and that anything that we cannot prove, is an illusion. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat )

That's not how ”illusion” is defined in taoism or buddhism. Rather it is the *value* of existing things, that is an illusion. Pain is a nerve impulse. You feel pain when you exercise too, and life is full of discomfort, but pain isn't always a sign of something bad. Sometimes pain isn't important. That's why you see monks living in asceticism instead of being high on morphine and worldly pleasures: Because while these things (very likely) exist, they're not important.

 

Yes, conflict is an illusion. That's why I toss it around like confetti.

Yes, even doing nothing could be seen as a conflict.

Complaining over there being conflicts, is like complaining over there being space and time everywhere. Still, you can't ignore the fact. There's also peace everywhere, if you wish to see it that way.

 

Yes, I'm considering printing a diploma myself, but that wouldn't fill the need to be validated.

[Rara]

 

Yes, I'm actually serious. Think is something I've been thinking about for a few months. Sure, there is "Dharma transmissions", but those seem to be from teacher to student. I guess I'm out of luck.

 

Didn't my example show that a sage *does* need recognition?

If nobody listens, then sure he's a sage, but he's no use to anyone. What sort of a bodhisattva would even the Dalai Lama be, if nobody listened to him and everybody thought he was just a loon?

Exactly. Dalai Lama is a good role model and celebrity. Nothing more.

 

If no one even close will listen to you without a piece of paper, then you must not have anything to offer anyway.

 

I'm not "enlightened" but can still help my community, friends and family live in peace as best as I can.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Rara

[adept]

Then why doesn't the Dalai Lama wipe his ass with his robe ?

Because he's not a Zen practitioner.

A piece of paper means nothing.

[Icedude]

Exactly. Dalai Lama is a good role model and celebrity. Nothing more.

 

People consider him to be a manifestation of a bodhisattva, which is why whe's such a role model and a celebrity. You're free to not believe in that, but you cannot convince me that he lacks a title. ...and if people can get tested for titles, just like he was, then I want one too. I'm good for at least being a bodhisattwa.

 

 

Because he's not a Zen practitioner.

A piece of paper means nothing.

 

Pieces of paper "makes the world go round". Well, it used to. Now little electrons in computer systems "make the world go round".

Maybe a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to you, but it does to people stuck in dukkha. It does to students. That's why the Dalai Lama sits surrounded by gold, preaching that gold is cursed: It's a connection with people. There needs to be a bridge somehow, between Nirvana and Dukkha. I'm looking to build that bridge out of paper, just like the zen masters before me did.

[Rara]

 

People consider him to be a manifestation of a bodhisattva, which is why whe's such a role model and a celebrity. You're free to not believe in that, but you cannot convince me that he lacks a title. ...and if people can get tested for titles, just like he was, then I want one too. I'm good for at least being a bodhisattwa.

 

 

 

I did edit my post...please read my elaboration.

 

If people stopped grasping for messiah status, then we would live in a better world. "Wanting" is from desire...so it is clear to me that for you, isn't about helping people. It's about the fame.

[Icedude]

If no one even close will listen to you without a piece of paper, then you must not have anything to offer anyway.

 

Are you quite sure about that? You're not just taking a huge dump on me now for no reason? Think it over, because there will be a test.

 

 

>I'm not "enlightened" but can still help my community, friends and family live in peace as best as I can.

 

Yes, "as best as you can". ...but sometimes "as best as you can" might require a certificate. In the case of the user who needed a cert to do acupucture: He can help with grocery shopping too, but he has greater skills than that, which he needs to get validated to be able to use officially.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Icedude