I want a diploma.

[zerostao]

 

wisdom and knowledge are 2 different things.

 

[Icedude]

wisdom and knowledge are 2 different things.

 

So you'd be okay with schools of wisdom then? ...with diplomas for wisdom?

Also, there's no point to all these huge pictures and videos.

[Brian]

Phrase which comes to mind for me is "power tempered by knowledge, knowledge tempered by wisdom -- wisdom of and for the Light."

 

EDIT: Al Gore stole a "d."

Edited March 24, 2014 by Brian

[Apech]

According to your culture, Buddha is unemployed. You'd put a McDonalds cap on him, take him to McDonalds, and he'd be a slow and weird cachier. That's the result of people "knocking people down a peg or two".

 

I just quoted this because I like the image. Actually I think there would be a huge queue in front of the Buddha just because people would want to look at him and give him their cash ... never mind the burgers and fires.

 

"Om ... how can I help you?"

"BuddhaMac with fries and coffee to go."

"Can I explain the Four Noble Truths while you wait for your order?"

".....er .... no thanks but I'll have some ketchup please."

"Have a nice incarnation!"

[Icedude]

Phrase which comes to mind for me is "power tempered by knowledge, knowledge tempered by wisdom -- wisdom of an for the Light."

 

"an" what? An ambulance? An orange?

 

 

I just quoted this because I like the image. Actually I think there would be a huge queue in front of the Buddha just because people would want to look at him and give him their cash ... never mind the burgers and fires.

 

"Om ... how can I help you?"

"BuddhaMac with fries and coffee to go."

"Can I explain the Four Noble Truths while you wait for your order?"

".....er .... no thanks but I'll have some ketchup please."

"Have a nice incarnation!"

 

No, there wouldn't, because there's a rule that says something like "employees are not supposed to talk to customers" or something like that. ...and if there wasn't, one would shortly be invented in order to serve more burgers and put out more fires.

[zerostao]

"Funny, funny."

have you even spent any time on those sub- forums to see where we are already on TTB?

of you just chose to come on in and sharing your 'enlightenment' upon us?

 

"Also, there's no point to all these huge pictures and videos."

if there wasn't I wouldn't have posted them.

 

have you even read genesis? or the ancient greeks? how about kant?

" We never have direct experience of things, the noumenal world, and what we do experience is the phenomenal world as conveyed by our senses"

 

you came here telling us that you are enlightened and waiting for a temple to be built that can appropriately judge your achievement and bestow you a diploma, I have missed where you have expressed anything relating to this enlightenment/ it seems you have a decent sense of humor and I am just trying to play along.

I know that these mystical moments can seem ineffable. but if you are grounded sufficiently here in reality then you could be able to translate the enlightening experience in a way we common folk could understand.

saying that you have seen the book but forgot to get the isbn # isn't so helpful for us.

I will try to focus and concentrate while you explain enlightenment.

I am a bit slow and apologize for that.

[C T]

I just quoted this because I like the image. Actually I think there would be a huge queue in front of the Buddha just because people would want to look at him and give him their cash ... never mind the burgers and fires.

 

"Om ... how can I help you?"

"BuddhaMac with fries and coffee to go."

"Can I explain the Four Noble Truths while you wait for your order?"

".....er .... no thanks but I'll have some ketchup please."

"Have a nice incarnation!"

I like that image too... to gel the image even more, how about a little twist to the last line... "Have a nice incineration."

[Icedude]

"Funny, funny."

have you even spent any time on those sub- forums to see where we are already on TTB?

of you just chose to come on in and sharing your 'enlightenment' upon us?

 

Tao Te Ching bores me. I don't remember if I read it all the way through that week I borrowed it, or fell asleep half-way through. It's essentially, to me, about a guy very slowly - veeery slooowly - going to the bathroom. I'd rather solve koans, because at least they pose some kind of a challenge to me at times. I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that.

It's probably a long way to the top for most people, and I wish you good luck, but it's not for me.

 

 

"Also, there's no point to all these huge pictures and videos."

if there wasn't I wouldn't have posted them.

 

Phrase yourself in words when possible.

 

 

have you even read genesis? or the ancient greeks? how about kant?

" We never have direct experience of things, the noumenal world, and what we do experience is the phenomenal world as conveyed by our senses"

 

What does biblical genesis have to do with anything? I don't believe in the christian god.

(Then again I can be Jesus with amnesia. I've never tried to part the oceans, or turn water into wine, but I sincerely doubt that I can.)

 

Look, it's great that you read lots of books and learn lots of things, that's really great, but some people don't need to do that. They already know that, or they've already learned that without reading.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Icedude

[Brian]

 

Common sense. You can hardly make those kinds of predictions. However, I don't think I phrased that as them having a reason against it. I just don't think they saw a point to it. Buddha sat under a tree talking to people, and Lao Tze lived in a country that had an emperor with complete opposite views. You'd be counting on common people to suddenly realize that what you're blathering on about actually makes sense. It rarely happens.

I don't buy your argument. Appears to me you are projecting your own opinion onto these old guys. No, you didn't phrase it as them having a reason against it because it seems you have decided they were really for it yet didn't mention it because they didn't see a point in it. As opposed to all the other stuff they mentioned which they expected the "common people" to immediately embrace?

 

EDIT: Of course, I could be mistaken. After all, I am just a common person and not an enlightened one.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Brian

[zerostao]

icedude , why resort to insults? that is bad form on your part. or does it reveal your level of enlightenment?

when I see someone resort to insults as their way of continuing their argument , I see it as a form of resignation. I am kinda disappointed that you choose to give up so easily. oh well

[Brian]

 

<snip>I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that.

<snip>

***Steward's Comment***

This language is inappropriate.

***End Steward's Comment***

Edited March 24, 2014 by Brian

[Jetsun]

Tao Te Ching bores me. I don't remember if I read it all the way through that week I borrowed it, or fell asleep half-way through. It's essentially, to me, about a guy very slowly - veeery slooowly - going to the bathroom. I'd rather solve koans, because at least they pose some kind of a challenge to me at times. I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that.

It's probably a long way to the top for most people, and I wish you good luck, but it's not for me.

 

 

 

Phrase yourself in words when possible.

 

 

 

What does biblical genesis have to do with anything? I don't believe in the christian god.

(Then again I can be Jesus with amnesia. I've never tried to part the oceans, or turn water into wine, but I sincerely doubt that I can.)

 

Look, it's great that you read lots of books and learn lots of things, that's really great, but some people don't need to do that. They already know that, or they've already learned that without reading.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Warning ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Icedude this is a warning for a personal insult which is against the terms of service of this site, any more insults and you will be immediately suspended.

 

Further action on this issue may be taken when the other mods log in

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[thamosh]

Diploma for enlightenment?

 

Does anyone actually know what a buddha should have?

 

And what a proclaimed buddha should be able to do?

 

It goes by the attainment not what is on paper.

 

This makes the spiritual heir and Spiritual master of a school.

 

Attainment (heaven) Title (earth)

 

To have the power in spirit and on earth according to the laws of the land.

 

Title and attainment in this sense is paired.

 

When these 2 are seperated the school or sect suffers.

 

Titles like doors locks and so on also have a spiritual meaning.

 

Titles can also have spiritual power as well.

 

This isnt an easy subject to understand. Some things exist in this world for a reason.

 

You can have a very high level of enlightenment but no divine title to teach and bring others to enlightenment.

 

There could be a few reasons for this.......

 

But it basically means that the thread you developed in isnt what heaven wants others to develop in.

 

This could be due to where you live or the family line you come from or it just isnt that time in history yet.

 

As teachers you cant enlighten someone you can only help guide them.

 

it is this way so someone doesnt owe you for their enlightenment. There is suppose to be no ego in this.....

 

For a student to come to you at the right time in your life and his life and for the student to be a right match for the art and master does not happen by chance......

 

Those who think that you can just get a diploma for enlightenment and from that point enlighten others truley does not understand things.....

Edited March 24, 2014 by thamosh

[skydog]

good post sir

[skydog]

stuff is cool yo

Edited March 24, 2014 by skydog

[thamosh]

Thx.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thamosh

[Rara]

@Icedude

 

Not sure if you will get to read this but in response, yes, I understand Lao Tzu and Buddha to not have concerned themselves with organisations, rather than opposing the idea of future ones.

 

But Buddha (Siddharta) opposed Brahmin and other ascetics, right? It seems interesting that he was said to actually gain enlightenment, and then make the point of encouraging people to seek truth from within, rather than listening to preachers blindly. But now we hear all sorts of things taught about in Buddhist, and Taoist religion that often become more dogmatic.

 

I think these are the dangers of a lot of people who use titles in the Buddhist and Taoist context.

 

I like Buddha's teachings, and Lao Tzu's. But I think they would be rolling their eyes at a lot of things found in the "religions" people have made for them.

[Rara]

So what I mean is, how do you know domeone giving you the diploma isn't full if shit? That would be annoying for the actually enlightened to be knighted by a delusional idiot.

 

I had a lecturer at university once that was covering social media marketing. I often found myself teaching him more than he taught me. That was annoying...so I left for another course. Screw that degree, the paper didn't mean a thing at that point.

[Brian]

You did well with my questions, but realized I am not a diploma giving institute so I won't ask anymore. Too bad you didn't want a trophy. I have several categories to choose from: there is a karate guy who could be a Super Saiyan, but I think something from the balls section would be most apt, for bouncing between heaven and earth.

 

I did go to Coursera and look for you, but did not find Nirvana there. There is Buddhism and Modern Psychology from Princeton University and Buddhist Meditation in The Modern World from University of Virginia. These give certificates and may be as close as you can get with criteria free and from the couch.

 

I am considering signing up for A Beginner's Guide to Irrational Behavior. Hoping this might be helpful in my continuing quest to be a good and dedicated moderator here Unless it's a how-to guide, then I might get fired. Bring me a dromedary!

 

The courses are pretty good. My sons and I are partly through How It Works, which is basic physics and laws of motion. I have an irrational little geek girl crush on the professor, mostly because I find it quite charming how much he seems to love telling people about this stuff. Also, he does have diplomas.

If that ^^^ turns out to be a how-to, let me know whether they need an instructor for a graduate-level version...

Edited March 24, 2014 by Brian

[Icedude]

I don't buy your argument. Appears to me you are projecting your own opinion onto these old guys. No, you didn't phrase it as them having a reason against it because it seems you have decided they were really for it yet didn't mention it because they didn't see a point in it. As opposed to all the other stuff they mentioned which they expected the "common people" to immediately embrace?

 

EDIT: Of course, I could be mistaken. After all, I am just a common person and not an enlightened one.

 

I just don't see how that was relevant at the time. The months immediately following Buddhas death things happened among his followers which he didn't predict in the slightest, which came to shape Buddhism forever. He never even figured his own teachings would survive enough to be needed to be put down on paper.

 

 

icedude , why resort to insults? that is bad form on your part. or does it reveal your level of enlightenment?

when I see someone resort to insults as their way of continuing their argument , I see it as a form of resignation. I am kinda disappointed that you choose to give up so easily. oh well

 

***Steward's Comment***

This language is inappropriate.

***End Steward's Comment***

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Mod Warning ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Icedude this is a warning for a personal insult which is against the terms of service of this site, any more insults and you will be immediately suspended.

Further action on this issue may be taken when the other mods log in

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Bah.

Explain to me how there would be a better and kinder way to phrase that. I tried to be as polite and respectful as I could. What part of "I'm sorry" was lost on you?

Meanwhile, if we are going to talk "insults", why don't you warn every single one of the people bringing up diplomas as a joke on this site? It's a running joke about me being stupid, isn't it? At the very least, if he's going to be this petty (if that's an allowed word) you can warn him about any jokes he might have done.

...so I can't take the warning seriously. How could I? There was just no kinder way to phrase that.

...but maybe I'm wrong. If you can come up with a more polite phrasing, I'll believe you. Was it the actual word "stupid"? Is "less gifted" better? Bah, I say. Why don't you go witchhunt the diploma jokers instead, if you want something to do?

 

 

 

Diploma for enlightenment?

Does anyone actually know what a buddha should have?

And what a proclaimed buddha should be able to do?

It goes by the attainment not what is on paper.

This makes the spiritual heir and Spiritual master of a school.

Attainment (heaven) Title (earth)

To have the power in spirit and on earth according to the laws of the land.

Title and attainment in this sense is paired.

When these 2 are seperated the school or sect suffers.

Titles like doors locks and so on also have a spiritual meaning.

Titles can also have spiritual power as well.

This isnt an easy subject to understand. Some things exist in this world for a reason.

You can have a very high level of enlightenment but no divine title to teach and bring others to enlightenment.

There could be a few reasons for this.......

But it basically means that the thread you developed in isnt what heaven wants others to develop in.

This could be due to where you live or the family line you come from or it just isnt that time in history yet.

As teachers you cant enlighten someone you can only help guide them.

it is this way so someone doesnt owe you for their enlightenment. There is suppose to be no ego in this.....

For a student to come to you at the right time in your life and his life and for the student to be a right match for the art and master does not happen by chance......

Those who think that you can just get a diploma for enlightenment and from that point enlighten others truley does not understand things.....

 

You show a good level of understanding.

The thing is that teaching is less spiritual than being enlightened. The want to teach isn't inside Nirvana. ...and as teaching is tied to earth, it begins to need earthly things to work. Spiritually, a diploma isn't that beautiful, but it may still be necessary.

 

 

 

You did well with my questions, but realized I am not a diploma giving institute so I won't ask anymore. Too bad you didn't want a trophy. I have several categories to choose from: there is a karate guy who could be a Super Saiyan, but I think something from the balls section would be most apt, for bouncing between heaven and earth.

 

I did go to Coursera and look for you, but did not find Nirvana there. There is Buddhism and Modern Psychology from Princeton University and Buddhist Meditation in The Modern World from University of Virginia. These give certificates and may be as close as you can get with criteria free and from the couch.

 

I am considering signing up for A Beginner's Guide to Irrational Behavior. Hoping this might be helpful in my continuing quest to be a good and dedicated moderator here Unless it's a how-to guide, then I might get fired. Bring me a dromedary!

 

The courses are pretty good. My sons and I are partly through How It Works, which is basic physics and laws of motion. I have an irrational little geek girl crush on the professor, mostly because I find it quite charming how much he seems to love telling people about this stuff. Also, he does have diplomas.

 

Thank you. (I'm unsure of if you are putting me on, because it actually sounds helpful in a way.)

 

 

 

@Icedude

 

Not sure if you will get to read this but in response, yes, I understand Lao Tzu and Buddha to not have concerned themselves with organisations, rather than opposing the idea of future ones.

 

But Buddha (Siddharta) opposed Brahmin and other ascetics, right? It seems interesting that he was said to actually gain enlightenment, and then make the point of encouraging people to seek truth from within, rather than listening to preachers blindly. But now we hear all sorts of things taught about in Buddhist, and Taoist religion that often become more dogmatic.

 

I think these are the dangers of a lot of people who use titles in the Buddhist and Taoist context.

 

I like Buddha's teachings, and Lao Tzu's. But I think they would be rolling their eyes at a lot of things found in the "religions" people have made for them.

 

Let me put it this way: Buddha used words in order to be understood. ...in the language of his country. Today people communicate their knowledge with diplomas too. It's the language of most of the world. They're all unspiritual tools to communicate something spiritual.

 

 

 

So what I mean is, how do you know domeone giving you the diploma isn't full if shit? That would be annoying for the actually enlightened to be knighted by a delusional idiot.

 

I had a lecturer at university once that was covering social media marketing. I often found myself teaching him more than he taught me. That was annoying...so I left for another course. Screw that degree, the paper didn't mean a thing at that point.

 

At some level there needs to be trust for the teacher, yes. That's the same reason to why I'm not accepting diplomas from users at this forum: I don't trust their wisdom.

[Brian]

<snip>

Bah.

Explain to me how there would be a better and kinder way to phrase that. I tried to be as polite and respectful as I could. What part of "I'm sorry" was lost on you?

Meanwhile, if we are going to talk "insults", why don't you warn every single one of the people bringing up diplomas as a joke on this site? It's a running joke about me being stupid, isn't it? At the very least, if he's going to be this petty (if that's an allowed word) you can warn him about any jokes he might have done.

...so I can't take the warning seriously. How could I? There was just no kinder way to phrase that.

...but maybe I'm wrong. If you can come up with a more polite phrasing, I'll believe you. Was it the actual word "stupid"? Is "less gifted" better? Bah, I say. Why don't you go witchhunt the diploma jokers instead, if you want something to do?</snip>

Seriously?

 

So, your sentence was:

 

"I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that."

 

How about something along the lines of:

 

"I know you've put a great deal of effort into reading and understanding the TTC but I really can't discuss it as I never bothered reading it because I thought it was boring and reminiscent of human excrement (even though I didn't actually read it, mind you). Instead, I read something completely different which I believe to be superior and, because of that (and the fact that I am already enlightened), I choose to look down my nose at those who place any significance on the TTC."

 

 

EDIT: Or, you could simply have said "I don't put the same level of importance on the TTC that you do."

Edited March 24, 2014 by Brian

[Rara]

@Icedude

 

To your last response, all cool. Makes more sense to me now where you're coming from.

 

In regards to the mod calling you out on that post, I do find it funny myself. I mean, in a thread just a couple of days ago, you did lecture me on reading TTC again (which btw, I have only recently finished for the 3rd time)

[Icedude]

Seriously?

 

So, your sentence was:

 

"I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that."

 

How about something along the lines of:

 

"I know you've put a great deal of effort into reading and understanding the TTC but I really can't discuss it as I never bothered reading it because I thought it was boring and reminiscent of human excrement (even though I didn't actually read it, mind you). Instead, I read something completely different which I believe to be superior and, because of that (and the fact that I am already enlightened), I choose to look down my nose at those who place any significance on the TTC."

 

 

The Tao Te Ching is not "human excrement". If you want to put it that way, it's "enlightened excrement". It's like reading a phonebook: It has its uses, but only if you're looking to call somebody. Basically the pages all say the same thing in different wording to me, while at the same time it's all really fascinating and complex to you. If you've read ten pages of it, and actually get it, you've read it all. It's just more of the same. I read a lot of it, but it's like reading a lot of the phonebook: I'd be mad to read it all.

 

The thing is that people get insulted by this because they see it as disrespectful toward the TTC and them not getting it. ...but it's more like me being the only one with legs, refusing to sit in a wheelchair to get around.

 

I don't read other books. I try to find references to texts that mention something complex and relevant to the higher levels of enlightenment, because that's the valuable stuff to me.

 

I also take it that you can't really phrase my words more politely. The actual insult comes from him taking objective truth on the matter personally, no matter how it's put. ...but I'm not even sure that the report was honest to begin with.

[Brian]

Personally, I don't focus much energy on the TTC because I consider it to be talking about something which can and should be experienced. I find some of the imagery very useful, however, and I have read several interpretations -- and read it more than a few times over the last thirty years or so.

 

The statement that "basically the pages all say the same thing in different wording to me" reflects more on you than on the book, in my opinion, and isn't something I would consider to be a bragging point.

 

My two points with which you have taken exception come from your own post -- you referred to the TTC as "...essentially, to me, about a guy very slowly - veeery slooowly - going to the bathroom" and in the next sentence you spoke about how you like to solve koans (a detail you have mentioned more than once). I assumed (apparently falsely) that "a guy" would be "human" and that you actually had read said koans -- I didn't mention "books."

 

You are mistaken in your evaluation of the insult, though. The insult comes from your phraseology rather than from the target of your sniping taking personal your identification of an "objective truth." My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek but I added to it while you were typing your response. Rather than asking you to scroll up and read it, I'll repeat it here:

 

Or, you could simply have said "I don't put the same level of importance on the TTC that you do."

[liminal_luke]

What part of "I'm sorry" was lost on you?

 

We're very sorry, but after much consideration your application for a diploma has been declined. Please accept this new edition of the Tao Te Ching with our apologies.