I want a diploma.

[Icedude]

I thought we were making fun with you ???

 

Yeah, well things got stale after a few days of mockery, and the mockery carried over into other threads, and you're so busy coming up with "clever" things to say, that very few of you actually came up with serious advice. I realized the comical side to it all even before I came here to this forum, and I'd like to move on to more serious territory now. Laughing at it won't make it go away.

 

 

Perhaps such natural talents, no need for 'no teacher' (or a teacher) and 'transmission from your own mind' validation wont be given here ... at least without some type of a hint of a demonstration instead of just a declaration ... I mean , anyone can just say anything, cant they ?

 

Sure: What exactly would you like me to demonstrate?

...

See?

I've been begging for a testing all this thread, to prove that I'm not just saying it, but you don't really know how to test me. I didn't expect you to either, but I figured that someone would at least know someone who knew how to test me.

...but I can actually call a few temples in America now, or visit a few closer temples, so I've got the testing bit taken care of, hopefully.

See, it's not funny. Imagine that you're in an exclusive library, and every book you opened whispered "Chosen One...". That's not awesome, and it's not funny. That's actually really creepy. I am trying to come to terms with what I've got, but at this point books make me uncomfortable. They're just full of stuff that I already know, making them boring and creepy at the same time. the best outcome that I can imagine at this point, is it turns out that I'm not awakened at all, because that would actually be a relief.

 

 

I guess it is a bit like that ... except the bakers, after their long study, apprentice ship, trial and error, own developed recipes, and all the other stuff that comes with being a baker .... just might want to taste your bread first ... before a new and unknown upstart baker waltzes in and asks for their acknowledgment and endorsement because ...... he says he is good at it.

 

Yeah, so I'm asking to be tested. I've said that ten times over at this point, so what is it about that that you guys don't get? Instead you're telling me to make my own diploma, and after that you're telling me to get followers with it. What's wrong with you?

 

 

 

I imagine you might get a more cynical or even hostile approach from a bakers guild or a temple than you do here. I imagine you might not even be let through the door.

 

Can you see that just might be possible ?

 

Why would I want to get through the door? Either they do tests or they don't do tests. If they don't let people who want to be tested through the door, then they don't do tests. If they get cynical or angry about it, then they don't even acknowledge that self-awakening is possible, so they don't do tests.

[skydog]

Hey, i'm with you mate, if "Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form", then realisation should come with a diploma, you know, to cover the 'form' side of the equation...

 

 

haha

[Nungali]

Yeah, well things got stale after a few days of mockery, and the mockery carried over into other threads, and you're so busy coming up with "clever" things to say, that very few of you actually came up with serious advice. I realized the comical side to it all even before I came here to this forum, and I'd like to move on to more serious territory now. Laughing at it won't make it go away.

 

So the semi-serious tone which you admit you first took is no longer relevant? I hope that answers some of your own questions about the reception you got ?

 

Sure: What exactly would you like me to demonstrate?

...

See?

 

I dont see anything, you ask a question, answer it yourself with a few dots and go 'See?' ... without waiting for an answer ???

 

What I would like you to demonstrate is , first of all, an indication that you have worked things out basically first ... about life ... next that even in your daily immaterial banter one should be able to detect a trace of some 'higher activity' and then maybe write something specific that shows your individual growth and development - a few here are capible of that ... it can be detected and 'read between the lines'.

 

I've been begging for a testing all this thread, to prove that I'm not just saying it, but you don't really know how to test me. I didn't expect you to either, but I figured that someone would at least know someone who knew how to test me.

 

you are demonstrating yourself .... testing not needed, just observation.

 

...but I can actually call a few temples in America now, or visit a few closer temples, so I've got the testing bit taken care of, hopefully.

 

well, good, that is out of the way then .... I wonder why you are still on about it ?

 

See, it's not funny. Imagine that you're in an exclusive library, and every book you opened whispered "Chosen One...". That's not awesome, and it's not funny. That's actually really creepy.

 

Agreed ... have you considered any other sort of 'testing' ?

 

I am trying to come to terms with what I've got, but at this point books make me uncomfortable. They're just full of stuff that I already know, making them boring and creepy at the same time. the best outcome that I can imagine at this point, is it turns out that I'm not awakened at all, because that would actually be a relief.

 

So, if books are only full of what you already know but ' it turns out that I'm not awakened at all', what does that indicate to you (since you seem open to the possibility, after all, that you may not be 'awakened' at all ..... if so, what do you postulate is going on ?

 

Yeah, so I'm asking to be tested. I've said that ten times over at this point, so what is it about that that you guys don't get? Instead you're telling me to make my own diploma, and after that you're telling me to get followers with it. What's wrong with you?

 

But you just said you have the tested thing sorted; 'so I've got the testing bit taken care of'. But 'us guys' are 'getting more' than 'that'.

 

What is 'wrong' with us is we are not taking your self declared and self proclaimed ' awakening' seriously ( and now you seem to be admitting that you can doubt it as well), we are not taking everything you see as objective view - you are caught up in a subjective view of yourself) and we haven't had any indication that you are enlightened or awakened.

 

Walk into any temple and ask for a test and a diploma to show you are 'awakened' and see the reception you get there.

 

Why would I want to get through the door? Either they do tests or they don't do tests. If they don't let people who want to be tested through the door, then they don't do tests. If they get cynical or angry about it, then they don't even acknowledge that self-awakening is possible, so they don't do tests.

 

This is the same cut and dried stuff as before. You are supposed to study before the test .... try going to a University and ask to just sit the exams. Otherwise, if you are already so smart ... it should be apparent , even in your letters.

 

On another point ... what sort of things do you think an 'awakened test' might require.

 

You want us to come to certain conclusions about you but you haven't even described your basic premises and meanings (aside from I go to read all the books but I already know what is in them ) what do you actually mean by 'awakened' ?

 

You havent asnwered any of that yet.

[skydog]

the universe doesnt work like that through diplomas

 

it just doesnt

 

some people are not meant to know certain things, or its not right for them to receive certain information because its not right for their energy...their is no one right bit of information, just pieces that work well with what someones intent and or soul wants at the moment

 

also a diploma doesnt mean anything

 

people look for conviction, energy, lifestyle,

 

in fact really the main thing is energy,

 

and lack of trying to teach others

 

if trying to teach others is coming from an unfulfilled lack in oneself really its kind of like an insult an attack, an im higher than you, and your an idiot kind of thing

 

its downright defensive

 

telling someone who needs to spend their life working with the material side of life....all is illusion....is not wise, and neither is it true.

 

when you want to tell someone something they will understand if if its right

 

in fact sometimes theyll attack you and hate you, but eventually it was you who made something clear to them

[Icedude]

Your talent is that you're awake? So is everyone for like 16 hours a day.

 

You probably mean awakened in a metaphorical way...then what have you "awakened" to? What did you realize which you hadn't known before? The content of that realization is more important than having realized it.

 

What is your scriptural proof that you're pretty high up there as a holy person?

 

Are you being sarcastic and kind of trolling everyone with this? It seems so to me.

 

I ask these things honestly...not to prove you wrong, but to help you find your answers, and also get to know you more.

 

Unfortunately it's not that easy. I don't know if other people managed to realize something that made them fully awakened at once. That seems unlikely, though. For me it happened over the course of many years, carrying with it understanding for everything I later read. I knew that I didn't think like anyone else, but I didn't think I was *that* special. I just had my own weird perception of things, that nobody else seemed to understand or agree with.

 

I could copy and paste things I've read from the scriptures, and simply go: "I get this. I get this as well. I get all of this, and all of this, and this too." If I tell you that I understand something more than that, you're just going to say that as it's not in the scriptures, that just proves that I'm not awakened. I don't get *all* of the scriptures, because some of the scriptures are actually wrong. At least that's what I think at the moment. For instance, I'll get back to you if I transform into a lion, but I don't think that that's likely for anyone to do.

 

Further, I don't think it's possible to formulate the full nature of the ultimate truth in a brief description. It would have already been done if that was the case. What to say differs from person to person, because it's actually doing away with misconceptions, and people have all completely different misconceptions. I'd have to discuss things with you, and make you understand the ultimate truth yourself, to prove my understanding of the ultimate truth, and that could apparently take lifetimes to do with a normal person, so "we'd be here all day" so to speak. It's not like I haven't tried to explain, but people don't get what I'm saying when I do "the brief version". I go too fast for them, and end up saying "ridiculous" things.

[Icedude]

Agreed ... have you considered any other sort of 'testing' ?

 

Like what testing?

See, I'm only answering this part, because I want to know whether or not I'm going to humor your questions any longer. Most likely not.

[Icedude]

I'm going to bed now. I'll answer tigers post tomorrow.

[Aetherous]

For instance, I'll get back to you if I transform into a lion, but I don't think that that's likely for anyone to do.

 

Please do...

[Nungali]

Like what testing?

 

Any other sort of testing. It's hard to pin down as you still haven't explained what ' awakened' means, or what 'I get this' in relation to reading scripture means or what implications that has ... or what the depth of it is. I can read a simplified or slightly more technical outline about the 'big bang' and yes, I can get it but .... .

 

I feel, believe, act and I am told by others I am now more awakened than I was ... perhaps I am more 'aware' than some others?

 

Also whether opening a book and having it speak to you ... how much of an analogy is that? I assume it is a turn of phrase?

 

If one is talking about 'testing' - these are all preliminary questions I would ask anyone before testing them (except that conversation would be part of the test as well ).

 

Its all part of making a decision about anyone, especially if you wanted to test them (or get a wider picture about them). I have had to 'check people out' or 'examine' them to see if they get in to the temple in the first place. One one hand it seems a bit clicky and judgemental and fascist, yet on the other hand I have seen the results of letting any one in, irregardless of any 'outer court' procedures ... and its effects on others and their process and the focus of the work of the temple.

 

I even read a paper once on whether someone with a diagnosed mental health problem should be admitted to a group that practiced magic, the writer of the paper (an advocate for the idea) was a trained psyche nurse, so with her present and the possibility of support and back up may have made it seem feasible , others in her group we dead against it.

 

We can also 'think things about ourself' and our processes, subjectively we can not be that 'sure of ourselves' ... we could be operating under a 'syndrome' or unhealthy psychological outlook (like having an internal view of reality that doesn't support us in the outside real world we deal with ), an introvert or extrovert syndrome or even complex. Some people can hear questions put to them about these things and it sparks thinking or examination, others get angry and defensive and take it personal , as if it is a personal attack instead of a case of considering all the possibilities. In my experience we are all a bit of both ... people with 'abilities' often appear very eccentric in other ways.

 

I am used to people joking with me, ribbing me and knocking me down a peg or two ... it might be my culture, but I have certainly observed it in others (like with a Tibetan Buddhist Lama - I have also noticed other people seem to take indignant offence at that .

 

See, I'm only answering this part, because I want to know whether or not I'm going to humor your questions any longer. Most likely not.

 

So, out of all the questions there, if you feel unclear about the above one, you will ignore the others? I hope not, I think they are valid and good questions ... answering them might clear a lot of things up ?

 

Besides ... how do you know you haven't already entered a temple and the testing has begun all ready. Do you want a test or just an agreement?

 

Also, if it is a test of being aware or awake to life and forces ... surely you must realise the need for humour to play itself out (in all its forms; ironic, sardonic, etc, ... as it seems to need to do in life ) ... actually, I thought you were doing better before, that comment about tying the safety tape to the head was pretty good - but I guess something pissed you off - that it started to spread to other threads ? But people are going to joke around, dont take it to heart to much .... you did run out waving around a flag a bit

[Icedude]

Also whether opening a book and having it speak to you ... how much of an analogy is that? I assume it is a turn of phrase?

 

Do you? ...because to me that sounds like yet another lame joke, put down in an extremely convoluted and insincere way: "Have you possibly maybe considered that you're psychotic? ...not that I'm saying that or anything." That's not testing me. That's you choosing to misinterpret me, thinking that as I want validation, all you need is to lie about offering it, and you can make a fool out of me. You don't even seem to believe in enlightenment, as you reckon monks wouldn't take askers seriously. ...so you come across as an atheist heckler.

 

If you want an honest answer about what awakened means, you can check dictionaries. "Awakened" is a word that fits criteria. I can tell you that I'm a good chef, because maybe I'm that too, but it's useless unless it fits the criteria. Maybe all awakened people are good chefs too, but I wouldn't know, as I haven't read about that part yet. I only know that what I've read so far fits.

 

I can read about the big bang, and understand the big bang, but that doesn't make me the big bang. However, if I'm happy, and I read about happiness, I understand that I'm happy, and that makes me realize that I was happy all along. ...or maybe I read about happiness and realize that I'm not happy. ...or maybe I read about happiness and that makes me happy while I'm reading it, or able to be happy later. Some people become awakened, and some people are already.

 

It's pointless for you to try to decide if another person would let me in or not, because you're not that person. I very much doubt that these "Buddha energies", whatever they are, can be sensed through the internet. You're not even able to detect if I'm smiling or picking my nose right now, so don't act like you are.

 

According to your culture, Buddha is unemployed. You'd put a McDonalds cap on him, take him to McDonalds, and he'd be a slow and weird cachier. That's the result of people "knocking people down a peg or two".

 

 

 

So, out of all the questions there, if you feel unclear about the above one, you will ignore the others? I hope not, I think they are valid and good questions ... answering them might clear a lot of things up ?

 

I feel like I'd be here giving you private lectures all day. You write far too many words.

 

 

 

Besides ... how do you know you haven't already entered a temple and the testing has begun all ready. Do you want a test or just an agreement?

 

Also, if it is a test of being aware or awake to life and forces ... surely you must realise the need for humour to play itself out (in all its forms; ironic, sardonic, etc, ... as it seems to need to do in life ) ... actually, I thought you were doing better before, that comment about tying the safety tape to the head was pretty good - but I guess something pissed you off - that it started to spread to other threads ? But people are going to joke around, dont take it to heart to much .... you did run out waving around a flag a bit

 

The need for humor in this case, is the need to degrade me for being larger than you. It's disbelief. It's disrespect. It's you making clowns out of yourselves, and at this point, after 14 pages, I'm fed up with clowns. How much unbelief in the religion that you claim to have, can you guys possibly have?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Icedude

[Rara]

 

You havent asnwered any of that yet.

He's good at not answering the actual questions. See other threads too.

[Icedude]

He's good at not answering the actual questions. See other threads too.

 

On the contrary: I've described enlightenment as best as I can in other threads.

If you want answers to actual questions, ask me.

[Rara]

 

 

Yeah, so I'm asking to be tested. I've said that ten times over at this point, so what is it about that that you guys don't get? Instead you're telling me to make my own diploma, and after that you're telling me to get followers with it. What's wrong with you?

 

 

What peeps are saying is this.

 

What on earth do you really gain by having someone tell you how awkakened/enlightened you are? How can someone else do this for you? Can you not see the flaws? They will never know anyway because they are NOT you. They would be lying to you and humouring you. But worst of all, they would actually believe they were telling you the truth.

 

All you would gain is a certificate and an ego boost that would get you an illusion of authority. You would walk among charlatans...

 

Wouldn't you just prefer to not be a part of that?

[zanshin]

If someone says you're in denial and you're not, what can you say?

 

If you decide that you're indecisive, which one are you?

[Rara]

 

On the contrary: I've described enlightenment as best as I can in other threads.

If you want answers to actual questions, ask me.

I appreciate that but that's not what I am particulary asking about.

 

It's simply an observation from when we spoke yesterday in a thread and I just gave up because all you would do is answer one out of every four questions.

[Icedude]

What peeps are saying is this.

 

Yet you are the one asking the questions.

 

 

What on earth do you really gain by having someone tell you how awkakened/enlightened you are?

 

A definition. A title. A name.

 

 

How can someone else do this for you?

 

I don't know yet, but it's obviously possible, otherwise we wouldn't have buddhism or any definitions of enlightenment, if it's just something that somebody can claim to be. You're here because you believe it's possible, aren't you?

 

 

Can you not see the flaws? They will never know anyway because they are NOT you. They would be lying to you and humouring you. But worst of all, they would actually believe they were telling you the truth.

 

All you would gain is a certificate and an ego boost that would get you an illusion of authority. You would walk among charlatans...

 

 

I guess that makes taoism and buddhism one big lie then, if it's just a matter of charlatans lying to charlatans, or falsely believing in them, ego boosting them and giving them an illusion of authority.

 

 

Wouldn't you just prefer to not be a part of that?

 

It's not a matter of what I prefer. It's a matter of if I already am or not.

There are clear definitions for enlightenment - clear fetters to clearly not have. Ways of preceptions to possess. Enlightenment is something tangible. The only question is if somebody can tell or not. After I've gotten my diploma, I'm free to retreat back into my apartment and possibly never speak of it again. That's how "part of that" I want to be.

 

 

If someone says you're in denial and you're not, what can you say?

 

"Test me."

 

 

If you decide that you're indecisive, which one are you?

 

Decidedly indecisive.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Icedude

[Icedude]

I appreciate that but that's not what I am particulary asking about.

 

It's simply an observation from when we spoke yesterday in a thread and I just gave up because all you would do is answer one out of every four questions.

 

It's because these questions come from just one question. Imagine somebody coming home asking "What's for dinner? What kind of sausage is it? Did you buy spaghetti? I hope it's not spaghetti again. Do you know how sad that would make me feel?". What if you didn't make dinner, or you're making hamburgers? If I see a root to the problem, I'm going to focus on that instead of bothering with all the leaves.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Icedude

[Rara]

 

Yet you are the one asking the questions.

 

 

 

A definition. A title. A name.

 

 

 

I don't know yet, but it's obviously possible, otherwise we wouldn't have buddhism or any definitions of enlightenment, if it's just something that somebody can claim to be. You're here because you believe it's possible, aren't you?

 

 

 

I guess that makes taoism and buddhism one big lie then, if it's just a matter of charlatans lying to charlatans, or falsely believing in them, ego boosting them and giving them an illusion of authority.

 

 

 

It's not a matter of what I prefer. It's a matter of if I already am or not.

There are clear definitions for enlightenment - clear fetters to clearly not have. Ways of preceptions to possess. Enlightenment is something tangible. The only question is if somebody can tell or not. After I've gotten my diploma, I'm free to retreat back into my apartment and possibly never speak of it again. That's how "part of that" I want to be.

 

 

 

"Test me."

 

 

 

Decidedly indecisive.

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

In short, I do have my own rejection of spirituality and religion in an oganised form. After much to and throw, I have gone round full circle and realised for myself it is no different from any other religion.

 

It's not that I don't believe in awakenings etc. Don't get me wrong, I have had many experiences of my own. But the idea of pursuing a title is just of no interest to me. Same goes with my uni degree. The piece of paper is nice and all but I would rather just use my reputation of getting the job done well in my every day life. It has proven to be far more useful in the long run.

 

I also do not believe that the Buddha or Lao Tzu's messages (and especially not Chuang Tzu) promoted the idea of having such formal schools. And such schools did develop much later after their supposed existence anyway. Of course, schools always existed but they were different religions at that time.

 

So this is my view, and like you said to me earlier, you are still free to go about your way and believe this is your path. And maybe you are right. But that is not to say that people deterring you is not good advice either. We only give what we have experienced after all.

[Icedude]

(I am going to trim your post in my response because I simply get what you're saying, and I have nothing to add to it.)

 

I also do not believe that the Buddha or Lao Tzu's messages (and especially not Chuang Tzu) promoted the idea of having such formal schools. And such schools did develop much later after their supposed existence anyway. Of course, schools always existed but they were different religions at that time.

 

Just because they didn't promote schools, it doesn't mean that they would oppose them either. They just didn't bring future schools up, also because they had no idea that those schools would survive that far.

 

 

So this is my view, and like you said to me earlier, you are still free to go about your way and believe this is your path. And maybe you are right. But that is not to say that people deterring you is not good advice either. We only give what we have experienced after all.

 

Self-doubt is good advice to give to somebody who doesn't possess self-doubt. It is superfluous to give to someone who already possesses it. However, actually deterring somebody, is just being in the way. ...yet that is the only "wisdom" that most of this forum has to offer: "Don't seek enlightenment. Don't seek buddhahood. It only leads to fame and fortune. We already have a buddha, and one was quite enough. Let him die and stay forgotten."

[zerostao]

"Just because they didn't promote schools, it doesn't mean that they would oppose them either. They just didn't bring future schools up, also because they had no idea that those schools would survive that far."

 

@icedude, lao Tzu and chaung Tzu advise us to step away from knowledge. other ancient sages from other cultures i.e. greeks tell us the same thing. in the book of genesis, same thing.

having said that, I get a diploma this may hehehe well I will if I can stay off ttb long enuff to finish my thesis, ha!

[Icedude]

"Just because they didn't promote schools, it doesn't mean that they would oppose them either. They just didn't bring future schools up, also because they had no idea that those schools would survive that far."

 

@icedude, lao Tzu and chaung Tzu advise us to step away from knowledge. other ancient sages from other cultures i.e. greeks tell us the same thing. in the book of genesis, same thing.

having said that, I get a diploma this may hehehe well I will if I can stay off ttb long enuff to finish my thesis, ha!

 

I'd like to ask for quotes, because I think you're taking things out of context now. The concept association went from enlightenment, to diploma, to schools, to knowledge. There is knowledge (as in preconceptions), and there is knowledge (as in experience). It's also said that you'll know when you're enlightened. Am I supposed to step away from that knowledge as well? I think you're over-interpreting things, and as for christian genesis, the tree was only dealing with the knowledge of good and evil.

[Brian]

What causes you to believe the reason Buddha, Lao Tzu & Chuang Tzu didn't promote schools is because "they had no idea that those schools would survive that far"?

[zerostao]

I'd like to ask for quotes, because I think you're taking things out of context now. The concept association went from enlightenment, to diploma, to schools, to knowledge. There is knowledge (as in preconceptions), and there is knowledge (as in experience). It's also said that you'll know when you're enlightened. Am I supposed to step away from that knowledge as well? I think you're over-interpreting things, and as for christian genesis, the tree was only dealing with the knowledge of good and evil.

http://thetaobums.com/forum/254-tao-te-ching/

 

http://thetaobums.com/forum/257-chuang-tzu/

 

[Icedude]

What causes you to believe the reason Buddha, Lao Tzu & Chuang Tzu didn't promote schools is because "they had no idea that those schools would survive that far"?

 

Common sense. You can hardly make those kinds of predictions. However, I don't think I phrased that as them having a reason against it. I just don't think they saw a point to it. Buddha sat under a tree talking to people, and Lao Tze lived in a country that had an emperor with complete opposite views. You'd be counting on common people to suddenly realize that what you're blathering on about actually makes sense. It rarely happens.

[Icedude]

http://thetaobums.com/forum/254-tao-te-ching/

 

http://thetaobums.com/forum/257-chuang-tzu/

 

Funny, funny.

...but isn't that just knowledge? "Don't read this book. In fact, don't read this sentence. Too late!"