Dangers of acupunture?

[3bob]

Has anyone here had negative results with acupuncture treatment? Or what do you have say of any dangers related to it?

[ChiDragon]

There are some dangerous points around the eyes that can cause blindness. There are some points on the body can be life threatening also.

[3bob]

Ok Chi Dragon,

 

I did find a site where many people commented on their painfully negative to dangerous experiences or results. I had my first treatment yesterday that gave some positive results but also had some highly painful moments related to needle insertion, as in most of my body jerking in painful response with certain insertions. (although most insertions were not so) Anyway and now I'm very reluctant to continue since reading of the seriously negative results some people have had!? Does anyone know of the best certification and practitioner's that has a long standing record of good acupuncture results? I ask because I read about this supposedly well schooled, trained and titled expert that really hurt some clients, namely they were far worse after treatment than before it!

[Ya Mu]

Some people are more sensitive to the needles than others. Personally, I don't like them and have had only a very few sessions out of quite a lot (I kept trying) that I felt did any good. Other people appear to respond better than I do.

We do "needle-less acupuncture" in our clinical qigong. Perhaps you would be more happy with a clinical qigong practitioner than with the needle style. I personally respond 100s of times greater with clinical qigong than with needle acupuncture. I think a Tui Na and/or clinical qigong practitioner may be more to your liking.

[thelerner]

That which cures can also destroy. And vice versa.

baby .. bath .. water .. stuff.

[Gerard]

I had my first treatment yesterday that gave some positive results but also had some highly painful moments related to needle insertion, as in most of my body jerking in painful response with certain insertions. (although most insertions were not so) Anyway and now I'm very reluctant to continue since reading of the seriously negative results some people have had!? Does anyone know of the best certification and practitioner's that has a long standing record of good acupuncture results? I ask because I read about this supposedly well schooled, trained and titled expert that really hurt some clients, namely they were far worse after treatment than before it!

 

Emotional release is always painful. The "whole mind purification process" is a lengthy 'battle' but you must persevere. If you give up now or get influenced by others' experiences you'll never succeed.

 

 

Alternatively, you could try acupressure.

 

Some free info:

 

1. Charts

 

2. Quick Fix Points

 

3. Eye muscles, neck and shoulders

 

4. How-to: 1 & 2

Edited March 20, 2014 by Gerard

[Dr_D]

Acupuncture is excellent.

The only danger is an untrained professional.

Research before you start course of treatment.

 

In light,

[Spotless]

If one were to compare traditional western medical to acupuncture - acupuncture walks on water by comparison regarding danger.

[henro]

There was an article put out by the BBC a few years back that stated there have been about 85 deaths due to acupuncture over a 40 year period worldwide. Compare that with deaths related to western medical care, 100,000 per year, sometimes reported to be as high as 400,000 per year and acupuncture is ridiculously safe.

 

Like an healing art or doctor - find a good practitioner, and let them know if you are sensitive to needles. Not sure where you are located but every state has it's own regulations regarding schooling. Of course you should also make sure they are licensed.

[joeblast]

the sensation of pain is just an arising energy potential anyway...what do you do with an energy potential arising from meditation or from a certain movement, energetic or physical? the nature of energy is transformation. relax as much as possible when getting needled, and refocus the arising potentials, pain or otherwise. focus of awareness is a very powerful tool.

[3bob]

Well I see some of what is going on in the west with acupuncture is like what has gone on with Yoga. (of various forms)

For instance there are various yoga even kundalini experts opening up shop on every other street corner across the US.

(hell its beats a 9-5 factory or desk job if one could pull it off, but such can also result in people getting hurt when such traditions are co-opted in the west or anywhere else)

[liminal_luke]

3Bob....Ah, I dunno. Co-opting is the way things change and adapt when brought to new cultural contexts. While purists may scoff, the results aren't necessarily bad. I'm living in Mexico right now, and know a thing or two about authentic Mexican food, and I can tell ya, it ain't the same as the "Mexican" cuisine in most restaurants in say, Portland, Oregon. For starters, when you go to a restaurant here in Zacatecas nobody brings you a complementary bowl of chips and salsa. And guys wouldn't dream of quaffing down margaritas with their meal. Just doesn't happen.

 

Does that mean there's something wrong with chips and salsa accompanied by a nice margarita? Not in my book.

 

It's much the same, I think, with western yoga. The arguably dumbed down stretching that passes for yoga in many gyms isn't the same as one might find in India, but that doesn't mean no good can come from it.

Edited March 20, 2014 by liminal_luke

[adept]

I've had acupuncture once, to cure my hayfever. It worked and was a very pleasant experience. No pain at all. Only the feeling of a lot of toxins being freed from my body. There was a pool of liquid at the bottom of my feet.

My acupuncturist was very skilled and was trained in mainland China and Hong Kong.

[ChiDragon]

The acupuncture points are from 0.1 to 1.0 inch in depth. The needle has to go down deeper will produce more pain.

Edited March 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[henro]

Well I see some of what is going on in the west with acupuncture is like what has gone on with Yoga. (of various forms)

For instance there are various yoga even kundalini experts opening up shop on every other street corner across the US.

(hell its beats a 9-5 factory or desk job if one could pull it off, but such can also result in people getting hurt when such traditions are co-opted in the west or anywhere else)

 

 

I would disagree for the most part. i think just about every state requires some sort of license to practice. Check with your state to find out the requirements. In California it's a 4 year masters program to become a licensed acupuncturist, and the state board test is one of the most difficult in the country. It's not so easy to "open a shop on every corner". At my school we have close to a 50% dropout rate due to the stringent requirements, and time it takes to complete the program. Most of my teachers have been trained in China, and most have an MD. These are not one year training programs, or weekend certificates like yoga or massage therapy. There are also continuing education credits that must be accumulated after you pass the board exams in order to renew your license every time.

 

That's not to say there aren't bad practitioners... Like every profession, there are some bad apples.

Edited March 20, 2014 by henro

[henro]

The acupuncture points are form 0.1 to 1.0 inch in depth. The needle has to go down deeper will produce more pain.

 

 

Depth does not always correspond to pain. At GB30 one could go 3" and still not feel pain. Depends on the point.....

[ChiDragon]

Depth does not always correspond to pain. At GB30 one could go 3" and still not feel pain. Depends on the point.....

 

In general, wasn't that being understood as common sense .....??? The deeper one are typical, if the needle goes in at an angle might cause some kind of sensation or irritation.

 

At this point, the needle is puncture perpendicularly 1.5 - 2.5 inches.

Innervation:

1. The inferior gluteal cutaneous nerve

2. the inferior gluteal nerve

3. Deeper, the sciatic nerve

Edited March 20, 2014 by ChiDragon

[3bob]

I would disagree for the most part. i think just about every state requires some sort of license to practice. Check with your state to find out the requirements. In California it's a 4 year masters program to become a licensed acupuncturist, and the state board test is one of the most difficult in the country. It's not so easy to "open a shop on every corner". At my school we have close to a 50% dropout rate due to the stringent requirements, and time it takes to complete the program. Most of my teachers have been trained in China, and most have an MD. These are not one year training programs, or weekend certificates like yoga or massage therapy. There are also continuing education credits that must be accumulated after you pass the board exams in order to renew your license every time.

 

That's not to say there aren't bad practitioners... Like every profession, there are some bad apples.

 

Ok, I see your point and I was not in a very flexible mood when I made my last post. Then again there are a whole lot of acupuncture people (findable on the web) who do not have the 4 year degree you speak of.

[Ya Mu]

I would disagree for the most part. i think just about every state requires some sort of license to practice. Check with your state to find out the requirements. In California it's a 4 year masters program to become a licensed acupuncturist, and the state board test is one of the most difficult in the country. It's not so easy to "open a shop on every corner". At my school we have close to a 50% dropout rate due to the stringent requirements, and time it takes to complete the program. Most of my teachers have been trained in China, and most have an MD. These are not one year training programs, or weekend certificates like yoga or massage therapy. There are also continuing education credits that must be accumulated after you pass the board exams in order to renew your license every time.

 

That's not to say there aren't bad practitioners... Like every profession, there are some bad apples.

It is good that there are stringent requirements IMO.

However, as I mention above, chiropractors can turn around 4 weekends training into a license to perform acupuncture which is in no way enough training. IMO it is a good thing that there are MDs who studied in China in your schools staff. Joseph Helms, MD has done IMO a good job in introducing acupuncture to western MDs

 

I have had acupuncture performed by graduates of many USA schools, teachers of several USA schools, several of the authors of the acupuncture books, MD China trained, and famous Chinese acupuncturists & teachers. I kept trying but it just never did anything for me and I still will hit (reflex) anyone trying to stick the SI points on my hand.

 

My main beef with the schools is that here they are talking about manipulating the Qi but won't be progressive in introducing advanced qigong or medical qigong in the schools. It just doesn't make sense to me. I do realize some of the schools are offering basic qigong courses now.

[runner11]

I had one bad experience with it. It started when I accidentally ate some cashews, which I'm severely allergic to. Within minutes I had a rash on my neck so red and dry that I couldn't turn my head or my skin would crack and start bleeding. I went to a doctor who is a chiropractor but also does acupuncture. He admitted that he was contemplating which points to use. He was trying to decide between two sets of points. He said, "this will either make it better or worse." Well it made it worse. My whole neck became inflamed and felt like it was on fire. It started to crack and bleed and continued to get worse after I got home.

 

I went back the next day and he used the other points, and my neck cleared up 80% within 30 seconds of putting the needles in, and was completely better within 20 minutes. I think this is a mistake that a dedicated TCM doctor would not have made. After that I researched and found a TCM doctor who is excellent. My advice would be to stay away from chiropractors who do acupuncture. I personally don't believe in it, but even if you do, chiropractics have nothing whatsoever to do with acupuncture. It's like a dentist who also sets bones on the side.

[henro]

I think Ya Mu, and Runner11 both point to something that is hugely important - if you want to try acupuncture find a licensed acupuncturist, not a Chiropractor or Physical Therapist who is just sticking needles in people. They don't go through the training, the diagnostics, or any type of qi cultivation program. This is a huge debate in the industry now, and something acupuncturists are fighting against daily.

 

 

And Ya Mu, I agree, most TCM schools do not have a qi cultivation program, and that is a problem. Ours does, and though it's not the most comprehensive program, it does expose the students to qigong, and medical qigong.

[Ya Mu]

I think Ya Mu, and Runner11 both point to something that is hugely important - if you want to try acupuncture find a licensed acupuncturist, not a Chiropractor or Physical Therapist who is just sticking needles in people. They don't go through the training, the diagnostics, or any type of qi cultivation program. This is a huge debate in the industry now, and something acupuncturists are fighting against daily.

 

 

And Ya Mu, I agree, most TCM schools do not have a qi cultivation program, and that is a problem. Ours does, and though it's not the most comprehensive program, it does expose the students to qigong, and medical qigong.

It is good that your school has implemented qigong & medical qigong. I think in the coming years the schools which don't will begin getting less students and the patients/clients will demand better results than those school's graduates can give. I won't mention the school name, but their training program clinic had a very difficult patient and they had tried for weeks to get results with this patient. Finally one student trained in medical qigong (from my school) did a 5 minute medical qigong session on him which totally solved the problem.

And from the head physician at Guan An Men hospital in China, "Our acupuncture doctors who practice qigong get far better results than our acupuncturists who don't."

 

As far as the chiropractor acupuncture issue goes, they have an extremely powerful lobby and it is unlikely things will change. Unfortunately (IMO), as far as them doing acupuncture it is here to stay. Better patient education over time will be the only thing that can be done by what I consider legitimate acupuncturists. And I am speaking as someone who had far more than their 100 hrs training in TCM & acupuncture and who did have the pleasure of personally studying acupuncture/TCM in China with a famous Chinese TCM doctor. For the record I don't do clinical needling and am not licensed to do clinical needling.

[3bob]

Henro,

 

In your opinion and experience what is the most pain one should ever feel or accept from a needle insertion that is done correctly? I know that such would tend to have a subjective range and or definition to it but could you also give an answer in simple terms ? (for instance should one's body ever shriek and then moan while jumping or bouncing up off the table in response to pain that feels like being jabbed in the middle of the back by a dagger? or should one's entire leg ever spasm and jerk in trying to get away from a needle insertion because of the pain it causes and which lasts for more than several seconds along with a burning sensation? And what about an acupuncture aide that jabs on inserted needles with some kind of heat gun that causes extra pain and irritation and doesn't back off when the patient squirms around in pain? )

Edited March 21, 2014 by 3bob

[SonOfTheGods]

Has anyone here had negative results with acupuncture treatment? Or what do you have say of any dangers related to it?

I have had many sessions done on me, and all worked great.

I also perform it, on a very small scale.

 

I wouldn't advise letting random people stick sharp metal objects in to you, however- because scenarios such as that usually do not end well

[idiot_stimpy]

I thought when the needle goes in a dull pressure point pain was good, but not a stinging sharp pain.