How to get spiritual without really trying

[Icedude]

The thing about taoism is that it teaches you that a lot of things aren't real - that things like virtues and sins, laws and morals, are relative constructs. ...and when you learn that your virtues aren't real virtues, you gain an understanding that makes it impossible to pour your heart and soul into opposition. As a real taoist you eventually become more than human. You cease to value the world, at least as you've learned to value it. You learn to see things as they are, and this is enlightenment.

 

A lot of people don't seem to get this. They think that taoism is about validating that everything they do is "right", and they don't realize that that makes everybody else "right" too. Instead they practice worship of their own virtues, just like Confucius did, and then you end up with personal confucianism instead.

 

...so no, taoists aren't "just normal people".

Edited March 22, 2014 by Icedude

[Marblehead]

Do you attach string and lift weights with them?

Hehehe. Not quite. There are specific exercises for building the pectoral muscles.

[Icedude]

Cats are mammals ... I think so... which means I have nipples... so ... the logic is?

 

Are you coming on to me? ...because there is just no way that you'll be able to convert me to a simiasexual.

[Apech]

The think about taoism is that it teaches you that a lot of things aren't real - that things like virtues and sins, laws and morals, are relative constructs. ...and when you learn that your virtues aren't real virtues, you gain an understanding that makes it impossible to pour your heart and soul into opposition. As a real taoist you eventually become more than human. You cease to value the world, at least as you've learned to value it. You learn to see things as they are, and this is enlightenment.

 

A lot of people don't seem to get this. They think that taoism is about validating that everything they do is "right", and they don't realize that that makes everybody else "right" too. Instead they practice worship of their own virtues, just like Confucius did, and then you end up with personal confucianism instead.

 

...so no, taoists aren't "just normal people".

 

 

I agree with you up to the last bit. Actually nothing much wrong with cultivating benevolence at a certain level in respect to other people. I think Confucius has been downgraded a lot because Daoism is so popular. But Daoism is popular with many for the reasons you indicated because it seems to affirm the idea that 'whatever' is ok and right. No doubt Daoism is deeper an dmore direct that Confucianism as regard what is real but in many ways the two systems compliment each other.

[Apech]

Are you coming on to me? ...because there is just no way that you'll be able to convert me to a simiasexual.

 

What are you wearing right now?

[Icedude]

What are you wearing right now?

 

Just a bridle.

[GrandmasterP]

 

I agree with you up to the last bit. Actually nothing much wrong with cultivating benevolence at a certain level in respect to other people. I think Confucius has been downgraded a lot because Daoism is so popular. But Daoism is popular with many for the reasons you indicated because it seems to affirm the idea that 'whatever' is ok and right. No doubt Daoism is deeper an dmore direct that Confucianism as regard what is real but in many ways the two systems compliment each other.

 

Daoism is popular now?

When did that happen?

Maybe I've been away from TTB longer than I imagined.

When I was around more 99.9% of Bits had never heard of Taoism and of those who had few could pronounce it properly.

[Apech]

Just a bridle.

 

A bridle! Wow you caught me there, I didn't expect that! I could say something like - do you have the bit between your teeth but that's too obvious.

 

How do you feel about side saddle?

[zerostao]

wb pete

[Apech]

Daoism is popular now? When did that happen? Maybe I've been away from TTB longer than I imagined. When I was around more 99.9% of Bits had never heard of Taoism and of those who had few could pronounce it properly.

 

 

Well I mean popular with a certain types ... you know ... not popular with the general population ... not popular like Strictly Come Dancing or Master Chef.

[Apech]

wb pete

 

wot?

[Icedude]

I agree with you up to the last bit. Actually nothing much wrong with cultivating benevolence at a certain level in respect to other people. I think Confucius has been downgraded a lot because Daoism is so popular. But Daoism is popular with many for the reasons you indicated because it seems to affirm the idea that 'whatever' is ok and right. No doubt Daoism is deeper an dmore direct that Confucianism as regard what is real but in many ways the two systems compliment each other.

 

I find that benevolence comes automatically with understanding (together with seeing no real reason for opposition). Once you understand that you would have done exactly the same thing, it's unnatural to hate someone. It would be like hating or hurting yourself. I don't believe in benevolence as a virtue. I believe in it as a natural state.

[Apech]

I find that benevolence comes automatically with understanding (together with seeing no real reason for opposition). Once you understand that you would have done exactly the same thing, it's unnatural to hate someone. It would be like hating or hurting yourself. I don't believe in benevolence as a virtue. I believe in it as a natural state.

 

 

Yes but in a social context perhaps it is better to cultivate benevolence than hate for instance. And of course the TTC says heaven and earth are not benevolent and treat the 10k things as straw dogs ... same for the sage and people ... so how natural is that?

Edited March 22, 2014 by Apech

[Rara]

But Ronin, just what the fuck do you expect a Taoist to act like? Taoists are humans too. They have the same thoughts, the same desires, the same inspirations, the same everything as other humans do.

 

We can't all be Lao Tzu. We can't all be Chuang Tzu. We have to be ourself. That is Tao. To follow one's own nature, not what Ronin says we should act like.

 

But then, maybe you have set ideals for humanity that are not possible to attain. Whenever we place our expectations on others we have at that point in time fucked up. All we can do is set expectations for ourself because we are the only person who has a little control over what we are and what we become.

 

Walking a path doesn't mean you always have to stay on the main path. It is nice to take an occasional side path just to see more of the beauty of living.

 

And to associate us with Christians is a gross error.

In addition, @Exalted, why do you expect so many experts to be on an internet forum full of false profile pics?

 

Forums usually open up for people with questions to talk about stuff they don't know too much about. The experts are always few...

[Icedude]

Yes but in a social context perhaps it is better to cultivate benevolence than hate for instance. And of course the TTC says heaven and earth are not benevolent and treat the 10k things as straw dogs ... same for the sage and people ... so how natural is that?

 

That passage means that heaven and earth (and sages) isn't partial, which is extremely natural. I mean "benevolence", as in the absence of ill will. In contrast, holding benevolence as a virtue means trying to infuse oneself with the unnatural urge to help people. In reality that just ends of in catastrophy: Jails full of the "bad" people, death penalties, cruelty, just because we don't understand eachother. A society that doesn't accept a certain percentage of people, isn't a just or good society. It only deludes itself that it is.

[Apech]

That passage means that heaven and earth (and sages) isn't partial, which is extremely natural. I mean "benevolence", as in the absence of ill will. In contrast, holding benevolence as a virtue means trying to infuse oneself with the unnatural urge to help people. In reality that just ends of in catastrophy: Jails full of the "bad" people, death penalties, cruelty, just because we don't understand eachother. A society that doesn't accept a certain percentage of people, isn't a just or good society. It only deludes itself that it is.

 

 

I kind of agree with you ... but I refer you to the TBs TTC discussion on this very topic ... and the literal translation is 'not benevolent' and yes that does imply impartiality or perhaps because of the straw dogs image ... that value is only placed in things pro tem and that they have no inherent vale as such without functionality in a given context.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Apech

[Rara]

 

Look, there's a way to deal with faults, and lashing out at other people and searching for faults in them, isn't it. That's just distracting yourself in order to ignore them. I am not looking for any kind of student, so I'm not going to take you on. You can most likely fix these things on your own.

Who are we talking about? You are me? And I think we are as bad as each other here. If I in any way, implied that I wanted to be your student, I'm sorry lol. I didn't intend to confuse.

 

As for my faults, I am very aware of them myself, yes. I'm just not convinved that you are.

[Icedude]

I kind of agree with you ... but I refer you to the TBs TTC discussion on this very topic ... and the literal translation is 'not benevolent' and yes that does imply impartiality or perhaps because of the straw dogs image ... that value is only placed in things pro tem and that they have no inherent vale as such without functionality in a given context.

 

I'm not sure what you mean now, because the grammar seems a bit incoherent, but if you want to refer me to a discussion in another topic, could you link to it, please?

[silent thunder]

Need to do a male mammal nipple survey ... quick!

soon as this was posted, my male cat disappeared... that's so eeeeeeerie.

[Icedude]

Who are we talking about? You are me? And I think we are as bad as each other here. If I in any way, implied that I wanted to be your student, I'm sorry lol. I didn't intend to confuse.

 

As for my faults, I am very aware of them myself, yes. I'm just not convinved that you are.

 

Everything I do right now, means I'm not in the stillness of Nirvana where I belong, so everything I do or say is inherently a "fault" that I've constructed in order to communicate with you.

It's not easy to be big either, because you aren't the only one who reacts like there's an elephant in their backyard. I'm a freak without a home. Don't feel ashamed.

[Rara]

 

Everything I do right now, means I'm not in the stillness of Nirvana where I belong, so everything I do or say is inherently a "fault" that I've constructed in order to communicate with you.

It's not easy to be big either, because you aren't the only one who reacts like there's an elephant in their backyard. I'm a freak without a home. Don't feel ashamed.

If I say, "ok, you're right", will that make things easier to communicate with you? Shall we try that?

[silent thunder]

Look, there's a way to deal with faults, and lashing out at other people and searching for faults in them, isn't it. That's just distracting yourself in order to ignore them....

 

It sure seems that this is the dominant tone of your posts here so far. To judge, lash out and get things stirred up. I like to smack calm puddles as I walk by too. It's tao.

 

That said, you've made some solid observations. But how difficult or valuable is it to find a swamp and stand there saying 'damn it's wet and stinky, this really chaps my ass'...

 

For me, topics that fire me all up emotionally can be valuable in gearing up energy to devote to obsessing on a topic to find a truth. I spent much of my teens and twenties doing just this...

 

In the end however it came down for me, to a matter of value of awareness, there will always be mud somewhere nearby, but when does my focusing on it, bring diminishing returns of depth of awareness vs energy spent and the impact of such emotional systems on the body/mind?

 

Emotional inertia can generate systems that persist for decades...

 

Good topic, I'm digging the body/breath awareness as I read and respond.

[Icedude]

If I say, "ok, you're right", will that make things easier to communicate with you? Shall we try that?

 

You don't need to do that. Just don't complain. I've already explained that I only meant for you guys to grow, and that should be appreciated.

[Apech]

I'm not sure what you mean now, because the grammar seems a bit incoherent, but if you want to refer me to a discussion in another topic, could you link to it, please?

 

TBs is a wonderful resource if you just bother to look around .. so I tempted to say you should find it yourself but since I am benevolent ... just this once ... http://thetaobums.com/topic/16539-ttc-study-chapter-five-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?p=227296

Edited March 22, 2014 by Apech

[TheExaltedRonin]

@marblehead

 

Oooh. It seems I've hit a nerve. So taoist. Hahahahahahaha.

 

Tell me once where I have said we should act like something. Go ahead. Quote me. I'm fairly confident you won't respond.

 

I'll be waiting. Your anger has blinded you towards me. Let's see how ignorant it will make you become.