Eating Flesh Pros and Cons

[Wayfarer64]

I first became a vegitarian at the age of 4... I was not allowed to continue after the initial 4 months of practice. I have been so inclined since and often am vegitarian as I feel the need to be so... But it is not a constant effort -nor do I think that if and when I am vegitarian it is any effort at all -it is just how I am at the time...

Vincent Vega -said it for all of us who eat those that once were alive- in Pulp Fiction..."But bacon tastes good, pork chops taste good"....(they were addressing that other matter of "filthy beasts" in that topic of discussion)

 

The flesh is weak so others eat it...May answer some of the question... eat or be eaten was the rule for a very long time... it may take us longer to evolve away from that scenerio...

[宁]

2000 years of morality...

 

think about it. the orientals were not interested in the moral aspects of sexuality, until fire practices and beliefs came to flourish there.

for them, sex was not a matter of morality, it was a matter of health, holistic health.

with food, it is the same.

we are too little to change the ways of nature.

we can try, and the current civilisation is a product of it.

[Taomeow]

By the way, I've seen ancient taoist texts dealing with nutrition list the "Five Sacred Meats" which are supposed to be consumed by humans. These are:

 

1. Cow

2. Pig

3. Dog

4. Sheep

5. Goat

 

Looks like "sacred" meant "domesticated" to our taoist forefathers. Perhaps their rationale was the same as in the Wenzi (Wenzi is believed to have been the only student of Laozi to have left extensive written elaborations on what the master taught orally, which is a lot more than what made it to the Tao Te Ching) -- concern for wildlife (already, to a keen taoist eye, overhunted dangerously in those anicent times) rather than any objections pertaining to the nutritional value of game.

 

To my knowledge, some but not all monastic taoists were vegetarians, non-monastic ones (daoshi, "scholar warriors") were overwhelmingly meat eaters, and all taoists would use a vegetarian diet for a short period of time towards a specific goal -- e.g., prior to performing certain rituals or tasks, usually for three days to a week one would be required to keep the vegetarian diet. Far from moral or superstitious considerations, the practice has to do with controlling one's own qi: a vegetarian diet can act as a short-term stimulant of shen qi by lightening the load it moves, i.e. the Blood. Qi moves Blood in the human body, among other tasks it performs. A vegetarian's blood is "thinner" and "lighter," in particular because it has less Metal (iron, copper, zinc, etc.) than a regular omnivorous human's Blood, so when a taoist is to perform a task that requires the use of a lot of her own qi, e.g. for writing a talisman or performing a very difficult healing, she will want to "lighten" the load of internal work her qi carries so as to have more available for an external task. Once the task is completed, meat eating is resumed and qi is reverted back to its internal task of moving "undiluted" Blood.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Taomeow

[林愛偉]

Vegetarianism 1

 

 

Vegetarianism 2

 

 

Vegetarianism 3

 

 

Vegetarianism 4

 

 

Despite what Daoist texts say is okay to eat, living beings are still living beings. And killing them for whatever reason is still killing them. Have fun eating meat. It doesn't change the fact of Quan Zhen Pai not eating meat. Some monks may personally do so, but that is their own problem. Many in the Zheng Yi Pai are vegetarian as well. Something about it being more pure for cultivation to make light bodies ;-)

 

Beancurdturtle,

 

These videos of my Shifu will answer your questions of sentience directly.

 

Peace and Happiness,

Aiwei

Edited July 29, 2007 by 林愛偉

[Taomeow]

Despite what Daoist texts say is okay to eat, living beings are still living beings. And killing them for whatever reason is still killing them. Have fun eating meat.

 

Um... if I was to avoid killing what I eat, this would by no means be limited to meat. When you bake leavened bread (as I do), drink kefir or yogurt or kombucha, make miso soup or munch on sauerkraut, you kill living beings -- yeast cultures are living beings, and incidentally, animals, not plants! So if you mean it's OK to kill plants but not animals, lots of food groups in addition to meat will have to be abandoned. All fermented foods. All foods that haven't been sterilized to death -- these have billions of animals, bacterial animals, in every bite. So you probably mean it's not OK to kill animals for food that are big enough for you to notice. Meaning, long as you're in denial because you can't see what you're killing, you qualify as a non-killer. If you were to kill a human being, e.g., without noticing (as in a hit and run car accident when you're too drunk to pay attention and to even notice that you hit some pedestrians), this would be perfectly fine if we follow this logic. However, there's another problem.

 

What did vegetables do to you? Why is it OK to kill them for food while it's not OK to kill animals? Do you hate plants? Do you despise them and therefore deny them the status of "living beings?" They ARE living beings, believe me. I spent one most enlightening summer learning from a fern, Sifu Fern in my backyard who told me in a dream he would teach me, and did. I learned Sacred Geometry from him, three months of the best education I ever had (and I do have a master's degree from a human university! ) Doesn't it prove that this plant is not only a living but a sentient being? Some Native Americans call trees Plant People, they even go as far as to call some rocks Rock People. If I were to adopt a faith that forbids eating live beings, in this system, as well as in classical taoism, I'd be prohibited to even put salt on my food... and, furthermore, WHAT, if anything, could I really eat at all with this prohibition in mind if taking the blinders off lets one see that everything in creation is a living being and avoiding the use of same for food is simply not one of tao's concerns? And my cat, my cat! you mean I would be spiritually or morally superior to my gentle but incorrigibly carnivorous cat sage if I was a vegetarian? That's speciesm in my book, the worst form of racism!

[林愛偉]

Um... if I was to avoid killing what I eat, this would by no means be limited to meat. When you bake leavened bread (as I do), drink kefir or yogurt or kombucha, make miso soup or munch on sauerkraut, you kill living beings -- yeast cultures are living beings, and incidentally, animals, not plants! So if you mean it's OK to kill plants but not animals, lots of food groups in addition to meat will have to be abandoned. All fermented foods. All foods that haven't been sterilized to death -- these have billions of animals, bacterial animals, in every bite. So you probably mean it's not OK to kill animals for food that are big enough for you to notice. Meaning, long as you're in denial because you can't see what you're killing, you qualify as a non-killer. If you were to kill a human being, e.g., without noticing (as in a hit and run car accident when you're too drunk to pay attention and to even notice that you hit some pedestrians), this would be perfectly fine if we follow this logic. However, there's another problem.

 

What did vegetables do to you? Why is it OK to kill them for food while it's not OK to kill animals? Do you hate plants? Do you despise them and therefore deny them the status of "living beings?" They ARE living beings, believe me. I spent one most enlightening summer learning from a fern, Sifu Fern in my backyard who told me in a dream he would teach me, and did. I learned Sacred Geometry from him, three months of the best education I ever had (and I do have a master's degree from a human university! ) Doesn't it prove that this plant is not only a living but a sentient being? Some Native Americans call trees Plant People, they even go as far as to call some rocks Rock People. If I were to adopt a faith that forbids eating live beings, in this system, as well as in classical taoism, I'd be prohibited to even put salt on my food... and, furthermore, WHAT, if anything, could I really eat at all with this prohibition in mind if taking the blinders off lets one see that everything in creation is a living being and avoiding the use of same for food is simply not one of tao's concerns? And my cat, my cat! you mean I would be spiritually or morally superior to my gentle but incorrigibly carnivorous cat sage if I was a vegetarian? That's speciesm in my book, the worst form of racism!

 

 

Wow, you ar so deluded.

 

It is very possible a Tree can have a spirit that was once had a human body. The same with rocks. It is called Karma. A process very little know about and everyone says they are experts on.

 

Peace and Happiness.

 

Aiwei.

[宁]

"Poor deluded Taomeow"

and

"Peace and Happiness"

 

The main problem with vegetarian diet is not that it affects the body, but the mind.

People become too...

...you know....

[Taomeow]

"Poor deluded Taomeow"

and

"Peace and Happiness"

 

The main problem with vegetarian diet is not that it affects the body, but the mind.

People become too...

...you know....

 

...too...

...I know.

[Christoph]

"Poor deluded Taomeow"

and

"Peace and Happiness"

 

The main problem with vegetarian diet is not that it affects the body, but the mind.

People become too...

...you know....

 

 

I have known many,many vegetarians and this has been my experience as well for the most part with the ones who are in it for moral and health reasons.

[Primal Unity]

I actually agree with the master, and i think you are well versed in buddhism, as opposed to many other teachers. I recently became a vegan, and for many years i tried to rationalize why i study tao and how i eat meat at the same time. It was difficult indeed.

 

But to the heart of the matter, eating meat is rather foul. There is no nutrient, not even b12, that we cannot get from plant food or dairy products. Eating meat is a tremendous waste of energy, land, grain, and other resources. And vegetarian food does not need to be boring.

 

As I recall, the buddha said something about 'if there is a greater joy to be had in the future, by giving up a small pleasure now, it is better to give up this small pleasure for the future good'

 

Very similar to the jewish saying, "from bitter: sweet"

 

Giving up the small pleasure of eating meat once or twice a day is better than causing killing, harming the environment, and harming yourself.

 

you can get by on corn, vegetables, dairy products, the allmighty hot pepper, and other foods. Killing animals is justifiable, but not preferabble. There is a way to live in harmony.

[Pero]

This is all right from a sutra perspective.

[Primal Unity]

thank you.

 

you know, there is scientific evidence that vegetarians are healthier. Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons are lacto-vegetarian, and they are by far the healthiest people in America. So healthy, in fact, that they are used as 'controls' in studies of the effects of the SAD(standard american diet). Everyone in america is judged on how healthy they are in comparison to these two religious groups.

 

and the essence of being vegetarian for spiritual/moral reasons, is to not kill a concious animal that feels fear and doesn't want to die. A head of cabbage doesn't feel fear or pain. A cow or a pig does.

 

let me quote the buddha again, "everybody fears death, everyone trembles at the whip. feeling for others as you feel for yourself, do not kill or cause others to kill."

 

BTW, i am not buddhist, I am a jew. but I read the Tao Te Ching everyday, and I am a philosopher. Nothing is as purifying as knowledge.

[beancurdturtle]

So, like, stop me if you've heard this one.

 

A Buddhist, a Mormon, and a Jew walk into a bar-bq...

[freeform]

Giving up the small pleasure of eating meat once or twice a day is better than causing killing, harming the environment, and harming yourself.

 

Most vegitarians and especially vegans use a lot of soya - which is one of the most damaging crops for the environment. Clearing a forest to create grassland for grazing has much less of a negative effect than clearing the same space for growing soya.

 

Harming yourself? I'm sorry that's not necissarily true - Many mongolians eat mostly meat (bread, sometimes rice and ofcourse dairy) - hardly any vegetables - since most of their diet is based on meat (breakfast is usually lamb) they should all be dying out because meat is so harmful - right?

 

Cabbages don't have fear? how do you know? how do you know that animals have emotions? Science is unwilling to recognise and define emotion in humans, let alone in animals. How could you possibly say with certainty that a cabbage doesn't have some simple form of emotion?

 

I have nothing against vegetarianism - I'm all for it in fact, but only if it comes from an inner calling - a physical sense that eating no meat is good for you, for now, and a continuing awareness to see if it might be good to start to eat meat again.

 

Any mental rules and logic has to always be checked inside with your body. It's a sad case that people decide to change their diet and look for 'reasons' for doing it - karma, health, environmental damage etc. Follow your body's need and you dont ever have to 'be a vegetarian' - you just might stop eating meat untill you start eating meat again - the same with grain, wheat, fish, soya - whatever.

 

The self righteousness of many vegetarians comes from this act of using ideas, 'logic', thought and external 'reasons' for not eating meat. I've noticed that any form of mental control over the body produces this kind of evangelical, belief-based righteousness. Think of any religion that has strict rules...

 

That's why I enjoy the body first approach of Taoism. The body is far wiser than any idea, thought or concept - because it's perpetually in the now, and able to asses it's needs far more accurately and with constant feedback.

[Taoist81]

thank you.

 

you know, there is scientific evidence that vegetarians are healthier. Seventh Day Adventists and Mormons are lacto-vegetarian, and they are by far the healthiest people in America. So healthy, in fact, that they are used as 'controls' in studies of the effects of the SAD(standard american diet). Everyone in america is judged on how healthy they are in comparison to these two religious groups.

 

Sorry, to nit-pick, but...while you are right about Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons are not lacto-vegitarian. The "Word of Wisdom" is the Mormon so-called health code and it currently only bans coffee, tea (even green tea for the extreme types) and alcohol. The actual text includes a clause about limiting the amount of meat you eat but ask anyone who is or once was a Mormon what kinds of food you find at a Mormon gathering and you will hear about loads of meat (the church owns a number of cattle ranches specifically for meat). Other "healthy" foods that are commonly brought to Mormon potlucks include, Jello (of multiple varieties), large quantities of fried foods and white rice. Mormons do not rank very high among religious groups for their health and Utah leads the country in Anti-depressant use. But, again, you are correct about the 7th day Adventists.

 

As for the self-righteousness of vegitarians, speaking as a vegitarian, it is all too silly. Our species would likely not have evolved to the point that we are at now without having eaten meat. Some of us feel drawn to not kill to eat, some enjoy a steak, to each his/her own. Though, it is questionable that a soy farm is more destructive than a cattle farm. Where did this stat come from? True it is not as sustainable as some crops, but a cattle farm wipes out acres exponentially, while crops can be rotated in the same location. Not to say you are wrong, just where did you get your info?

[freeform]

Though, it is questionable that a soy farm is more destructive than a cattle farm. Where did this stat come from? True it is not as sustainable as some crops, but a cattle farm wipes out acres exponentially, while crops can be rotated in the same location. Not to say you are wrong, just where did you get your info?

 

Yup - was too lazy to check for the reference... "Chopping down the Amazon rainforest to plant soybean crops is more detrimental to the climate than clearing space to graze cows. Fields of soybean reduce rainfall dramatically, over four times as much as pastureland." - from the April issue of New Scientist - you can buy the full research article here: Climate change in Amazonia caused by soybean cropland expansion, as compared to caused by pastureland expansion

 

There was another article I was thinking about when I wrote the above post about the damage that soybean crops cause to soil, but I cant find it - I'll add the article if I manage to find it.

 

Also I'm not suggesting that we cut down more of the amazon for beef - I actually think meat should be far more expensive and proportionally more healthy and sustainable.

[Primal Unity]

ok, for starters, the area of arable land needed to create the same amount of protien from beef than from soy is greater than 10 to 1. Growing cattle for beef is a huge waste of land, grain, and water.

 

Also, it is completely erroneous that tofu is the only vegetarian protein source. Chick peas, all other beans, and dairy products have all the protein you need. And don't give me that bs about 'incomplete proteins' because every nutritionist knows that is completely outdated and false. Vegetable protien is 'complete' and 'good for you' while eating meat is definately linked to higher rates of obesity, cancer, and heart disease.

 

the thing is people dont care about killing animals, because they never see it for themselves, and they enjoy eating meat, so they rationalize this cognitive dissonance by inventing rather defensive schemes on how vegetables feel pain, animals dont have emotions, the health of mongolians, and other useless ideas.

 

I am sure that mongolians are not as long lived as americans, let alone the okinawan, japanese, or spanish, the top three in longevity. Mongolia is a third-world country, abounding with poverty, disease, and crime.

 

if you doubt that animals and humans dont have emotions, my heart goes out to you. But then again, i'm a human being so therefore i have no 'heart' to feel for you with.

[witch]

Hm. I don't believe in an afterlife or reincarnation, and I'm not a taoist so much of this is flying over my pointy head. But I do know a bit about nutrition and sexual energy. The one thing that animals make that is impossible (realistically speaking) to get from food is EPA. DHA is extremely hard to get from plant sources; you can get it from algae, but I believe you would have to eat a lot of algae. It's available in supplement form from algae. I know the body converts ALA to EPA and DHA, but the ratio is so enormous (60 to 1) that it's impractical.

 

Eating seafood is a far superior source of EPA and DHA than eating cows or chickens, particularly if it is fatty fish. Women wanting to increase their libido and sexual energy I tell them to take huge amounts of EPA and DHA, as if they were eating a largish salmon steak twice a day (which would be dangerous nowadays).

 

Women who come to me who want to completely eradicate their sex drive, I recommend they go on a vegetarian diet with lots of tofu, whole grains, green tea, soymilk and very little fat. I also recommend any fat they do consume be polyunsaturated, like corn or soybean oil. This is a very effective way to kill sexual energy.

[Taomeow]

OK, let a poet chime in. Here's from "The Great Summons," by Qiu Yuan, 4th century BC, who ate a vegetarian diet for nine years and came to feel his soul had been driven desperate and was about to give up on him and depart:

 

The cunning cook adds slices of bird-flesh,

Pigeon and yellow-heron and black-crane.

They taste the badger-stew.

O Soul come back to feed on foods you love!

 

Next are brought

Fresh turtle, and sweet chicken cooked in cheese

Pressed by the men of Qiu.

And pickled suckling-pig

And flesh of whelps floating in liver-sauce

With salad of minced radishes in brine;

All served with that hot spice of southernwood

The land of Wu supplies.

O Soul come back to choose the meats you love!

 

Roasted daw, steamed wingeon and grilled quail --

On every fowl they fare.

Boiled perch and sparrow broth-- in each preserved

The separate flavor that is most its own.

O Soul come back to where such dainties wait!

 

(...) old songs are sung:

"The Rider's Song" that once

Fu Xi,* the ancient monarch, made...(...)

O Soul come back and listen to their songs!

 

_______

* Fu Xi -- the founder of taoism

[mYTHmAKER]

Another poets point of view.

Edited August 3, 2007 by mYTHmAKER

[宁]

I thought men were more of a rational-intelligent type of beings

Sheeshh...

But until now, all the reasonable and common-sensical judgement I found on this thread, seems to wear a skirt...

 

Bravo to the girl-power!

 

 

PS: Who said men are insensitive and lack imagination? They have tons of it!

[freeform]

ok, for starters, the area of arable land needed to create the same amount of protien from beef than from soy is greater than 10 to 1. Growing cattle for beef is a huge waste of land, grain, and water.

 

Also, it is completely erroneous that tofu is the only vegetarian protein source. Chick peas, all other beans, and dairy products have all the protein you need. And don't give me that bs about 'incomplete proteins' because every nutritionist knows that is completely outdated and false. Vegetable protien is 'complete' and 'good for you' while eating meat is definately linked to higher rates of obesity, cancer, and heart disease.

 

the thing is people dont care about killing animals, because they never see it for themselves, and they enjoy eating meat, so they rationalize this cognitive dissonance by inventing rather defensive schemes on how vegetables feel pain, animals dont have emotions, the health of mongolians, and other useless ideas.

 

I am sure that mongolians are not as long lived as americans, let alone the okinawan, japanese, or spanish, the top three in longevity. Mongolia is a third-world country, abounding with poverty, disease, and crime.

 

if you doubt that animals and humans dont have emotions, my heart goes out to you. But then again, i'm a human being so therefore i have no 'heart' to feel for you with.

 

Oh dear... why are you getting so worked up?

 

It's a great ratio you chose - 10 to 1 - if it wasn't plucked out of your imagination, I'm sure it would be useful to know where that statistic actually came from. You claim it's a waste of land to farm cattle, then you give dairy as one of the main sources of protein. And again it would be great to see this definitive evidence of obesity, cancer and heart desease that is linked directly to eating meat.

 

Dr Weston Price did a lot of research on the diets of healthy natives. All of them ate meat from healthy animals. And this is the key, imo. Meat is and should be an expensive comodity - you shouldn't be able to buy a chicken for $3. Witch mentioned the fats, and you can get these from meat and seafood - especially the parts we tend to throw away (organ meats) - I wouldn't eat organ meat from an intesively farmed animal.

 

I've seen animals getting slaughtered - several times... In the wrong hands, I'm sure it's quite harrowing, but if you know what you're doing the animal is killed very swiftly and with no fear or much pain. I've also seen a dog maul a rabbit...

 

It's quite funny that you see 'deffensive schemes' in my posts. In fact if you re-read my posts, I generally take your generalizations and distorted logic and reflect it back to you, in the hopes that you see your own aggressive defensiveness. Did I ever even say that humans have no emotion? or that cabbages do? Please learn to read in a calm way, that way you wont have your own emotions and hangups muddying the clarity. You seemed to give a lot of scientific - sounding and logical-looking arguments for why you're a vegetarian and I gave you counter arguments. I'm not defending my meat eating, I'm just trying to expose your faulty assumptions and generalizations - which as it turns out was a silly idea - nevermind

 

I eat meat because it feels right in every way. If it so happens that this desire leaves (like Myth's excellent poem demonstrates) naturally then I'll stop - and I've stopped several times already - and just how the desire left, it later came back. I'm willing to follow my body's lead - and I'm certainly not following other people's convoluted egos - whether devout meat-eaters or vegetarians.

[witch]

I do have sympathy for vegetarians. Vegetarians who eat fish obviously have a leg up over regular meat-eaters. Vegetarians who eat dairy and eggs can get the sort enriched with omega-3 fatty acids (achieved by changing the feed of the cows and chickens to grass-fed, free-range).

 

The only reasonable vegetarian DHA supplement is Omega-Zen

 

http://www.nutru.com/our_products/omega.htm

 

Even so, you would have to take five or more capsules a day, depending on weight.

[mantis]

well according to what you say witch, i have no sexual energy, which is too far from the truth

[Primal Unity]

you guys are as ignorant as dogs. First of all, in the Body Machine, by Christiaan Barnard, a South African doctor who performed the world's first heart transplant, it says, and shows a diagram, of how it takes 30x as much land to create the same amount of protein when comparing beef to soybeans. 30 times, i tell you no lie. Read the book, it is considered a classic on anatomy and physiology.

 

And all this talk about women is beyond me, primarily because im not a woman. I am a Man, an insightful one at that.

 

Also, I did not reccomend tea, grains, corn or soybean oil, or lots of tofu. I said, corn, vegetables, dairy products, and hot pepper. I did not mention any of the phony-nutritionist-speaking guy's foods, and female sexual energy doesn't really matter to me to begin with.

 

To sum this up, man did not originate as a predatory species. It is obvious by looking at us. Man is weak, slow, lacks fangs or claws, and not suited for combat if compared to actual predatory species, such as wild dogs, lions, tigers, and bears oh my! Man is a prey animal. If you don't believe me, I give you the Cow challenge. Take off all your clothes, including any sharp objects such as rings and jewelery, and start a fight with a simple oxen. If you can kill him with your bare hands and tear his flesh without tools, I consider you a predator. But I fear that oxen will gore you to death in seconds. Man began a vegetarian, then moved to the coastal areas of africa and began spear-fishing. That is largely why men stand upright, are intelligent enough to devise tools, have hair that is practically invisible, unlike other primates, and used to live in tribal societies where everything is shared. If you can make a living that way, I consider you a very strong man. But you can't. You're alive because of the 2% of the population who work as farmers, honest men who keep you alive with their hard labour.

 

The consumption of meat only began with ranching, and now, Man has made disastrous changes to the world ecology all for the sake of eating meat three times a day. If you want to rationalize your behavior, fine, but the world is a terrible thing to waste. Meat is scarcity food, good for when there are no vegetables or yogurt to eat, but the world can't physically support 6 billion carnivores. And the land required to raise a few dairy cows, rather than thousands of cattle for the slaughter, is a very small ratio. By definition, you kill one mature cow, and its gone. One dairy cow gives milk all its life, and therefore is more valuable alive then dead.

 

So suit yourself. Your spirituality and knowledge amazes me.