The Yi Jing Begins with the Eight Symbols of the Ba Gua

[ChiDragon]

Now we have got to Dui ...I have always seen this expressed as a mountain lake ... is marsh a better translation ... and why?

 

BTW it would be helpful to give a transliteration of the names of the trigrams.

 

The character 澤 means "wet land" in Chinese as I had indicated. It is not a matter of translation but a matter of understanding the symbols. Don't you see water flow on the earth surface, like a marsh rather than "mountain lake"....??? A lake on the mountain, water will flow only when the lake is overflow. The symbol show water flowing on the earth surface all the time which what a marsh does.

Edited July 9, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

 

Before I go into the symbol, just for your curiosity, I will jump the gun a little bit.

 

A broken line representing something that had sunken already like a pot hole.

A solid line representing something that had risen already like a mountain.

 

Not sure why "already" -- more importantly, be careful with a "pothole" as a term you choose to describe yin -- if you fall in the hole of your own making, you may never get out.

 

A broken line represents female reproductive organs that have an opening -- the Receptive, yin. A Mother ain't no sunken pothole. I'm glad you didn't say asshole, but still you got me wondering -- where do you go to "observe Nature?.."

 

A solid line represents the male reproductive organ -- the Active, yang. It is fashioned after a dick.

 

The Chinese number one, represented by one straight line, ditto. This is why odd numbers are considered yang in the I Ching. The Chinese number two is represented by two lines with an opening between them. (Used to be positioned side by side too, just like the "broken" yin line of a trigram.) Which is why even numbers are considered yin.

 

The I Ching views 6 as yin and 9 as yang because that's how the downward motion of yin and upward motion of yang are depicted. If you put 6 and 9 together, you will get the taiji symbol. Looking at the 6 and 9 also gives you a straightforward visual idea of yin being "womb heavy" and yang, "top heavy."

 

A top-heavy approach to the I Ching is infertile (fertility is in the womb) and in constant danger of losing its balance and falling flat on its face. When tackling taoist subjects, one must be constantly vigilant against any statements that are disrespectful to yin, because this non-taoist in its origins yin-dissing ideation, coupled with unfortunate terminological choices suggesting inferiority of yin, is an insurmountable obstacle on the Way.

To put it bluntly, NO WAY.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Taomeow

[Apech]

 

The character 澤 means "wet land" in Chinese as I had indicated. It is not a matter of translation but a matter of understanding the symbols. Don't you see water flow on the earth surface, like a marsh rather than "mountain lake"....??? A lake on the mountain, water will glow only when the lake is overflow. The symbol show water flowing on the earth surface all the time which what a marsh does.

 

 

Ok but both Richard John Lynn and Huang translate Dui as Lake.

[ChiDragon]

 

Basically, observed from Nature, anything that is active, rise, and strong are considered to be in the Yang attribute.

Anything that is still, indented, and flaccid are considered to be in the Yin attribute.

 

The will be more added to the Yin-Yang attributes related to other things as the humans are getting more sophisticated in their lives. For now and simplicity, it is suffice to draw the symbols.

 

Taomeow.....

I can't keep up with this, if you are kept on jumping the gun.

 

 

I am not arguing with other translations. I am just try to present how the symbols came about and why they are that way. If you have made up your mind without knowing how the symbols came about and don't care. That is fine. I can quit now.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Apech]

 

Taomeow.....

I can't keep up with this, if you are kept on jumping the gun.

 

 

I am not arguing with other translations. I am just try to present how the symbols came about and why they are that way. If you have made up your mind without knowing how the symbols came about and don't care. That is fine. I can quit now.

 

 

Don't quit but you have to expect questions and challenges.

[ChiDragon]

Ok but both Richard John Lynn and Huang translate Dui as Lake.

 

Don't quit but you have to expect questions and challenges.

 

Okay! Can you tell me how do both Richard John Lynn and Huang translate Dui as Lake with what justification? I think I have given all my reasons why the symbols had drawn that way but seems to be ignored by everyone.

[Taomeow]

 

Taomeow.....

I can't keep up with this, if you are kept on jumping the gun.

 

 

I am not arguing with other translations. I am just try to present how the symbols came about and why they are that way. If you have made up your mind without knowing how the symbols came about and don't care. That is fine. I can quit now.

 

I am not jumping the gun, I am loading it for you and showing you how to use it if you want to hit the mark instead of shooting yourself in the foot.

 

The gun is yin, the bullet is yang. The mountain of your example is not "yang that had risen already" -- a mountain has yin on the bottom, yang on top. The Mountain the 8th trigram, which has yin on the bottom and yang on top, emulates that. Have you seen a mountain lately?

 

Likewise I might challenge anything you say that I see as challenge-worthy, and if you quit, I will respect your decision. Then again, I might get too busy (or too exasperated, as often is the case with my reaction to your contributions) to follow this particular thread -- keep your fingers crossed, that's a possibility.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Taomeow

[ChiDragon]

The gun is yin, the bullet is yang. The mountain of your example is not "yang that had risen already" -- a mountain has yin on the bottom, yang on top. The Mountain the 8th trigram, which has yin on the bottom and yang on top, emulates that. Have you seen a mountain lately?

 

I see how much you understand about Yin-Yang. In your example, the gun should be yang(active) and the bullet is yin(passive). The bullet cannot be fired without the gun. When the bullet is not in motion, it is Yin; and in motion is Yang.

 

I don't follow your mountain idea at all. Btw I haven't got to the symbol for "Mountain" yet. I was only talking about the Yang line. What I was saying is that a Yang line represents something tall like a highrise building or a mountain rather than a building or a mountain.

Edited January 14, 2015 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

I see how much you understand about Yin-Yang. In you example, the gun should be yang(active) and the bullet is yin(passive). The bullet cannot be fired without the gun. When the bullet is not in motion, it is Yin; and in motion is Yang.

 

 

Oh boy.

 

OK, let's get particular.

 

Yin is what is open to receive yang, yang is what is seeking the opening in yin to expand and penetrate into.

 

There's always yin within yang and yang within yin. (If you look at the taiji symbol, you will notice the "fish eye" -- that's what it symbolizes.)

 

Now then, when I'm loading a gun, like I did in my simile, the hollow where you insert the bullet -- that's the opening in the "broken line," that's the vagina, you impregnate it with a bullet, that's your yang, the dick, the active principle. Nevermind the bullet is not flying yet, a dick that is not actively engaged in the act of copulation at a particular moment is still yang, it's just less yang than the same dick will be when it does engage.

 

Yang and yin are degrees, not absolutes, and are always yang or yin compared to something else, not by themselves. You look at the attributes of yang and yin (all of them, not at your truncated list) and then you see how phenomena or objects measure against each other in terms of these attributes, and then you can always and invariably say that anything that is "more yang" than anything else makes that "else" more yin by default. E.g., a fire in your fireplace is yang compared to water in your sink, but the same fire is yin compared to the sun. The sun is yang compared to earth but yin compared to a supernova. A supernova is yang compared to the sun but yin compared to the Big Bang (assuming there was a Big Bang.) And so on.

 

Now then. When you fire the gun, your trigger is your yang-within-yin. Likewise when you have sex with a woman, she is not all yin ladies-don't-move style, there's yang within yin there too. The sperm -- that's yin within yang, but each individual 'zoon is yang within yin. And so on.

 

Observing the interplay of yin and yang in all phenomena, both natural and unnatural (e.g. your computer, unnatural as it is, is very yang compared to your potted plant, have you noticed?) is my favorite pastime. I'm aware of it pretty much 24/7 and derive great pleasure and satisfaction from this awareness. I was trying to share my joy, is all. But of course the prerequisite to enjoying the dance of yin with yang is being able to dance... I was hoping a day will come when you might start hearing this music. I even recommended the Ta Chuan (The Great Treatise) to anyone who would undertake discussing the I Ching... and the Eranos translation... But you're right in assuming none of my sources are ChiDragon dancing with ChiDragon, so your lack of interest in them is understandable.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Taomeow

[Apech]

 

Okay! Can you tell me how do both Richard John Lynn and Huang translate Dui as Lake with what justification? I think I have given all my reasons why the symbols had drawn that way but seems to be ignored by everyone.

 

 

I'm only looking for clarification and you react as if its an attack.

 

You are right actually because Huang says that he uses Lake by convention and actually it can mean watery ground ... even a rice field perhaps.

[zanshin]

I'm a beginner so my questions are definitely from curiosity and wanting to understand, not challenging.

 

Had same question about why I have seen it translated as Lake more than Marsh and I have no idea why, just I've seen LAke more.

 

I wonder if maybe a word like valley, ravine or even cavern could have put the yin example more on the same scale of mountain for yang, pothole seems like a small insignificant thing compared to mountain. But, it also confused me that mountain was the example for yang when mountain (Ken) is also a trigram in itself. Taomeow's post seemed to help with that, perhaps yang is a dynamic quality while Mountain trigram has attribute of keeping still. That's probably jumping the gun again, so will wait til we get to Mountain to see if it becomes more clear then.

[ChiDragon]

Zanshin and all others....

Thank you for you patience. The reason I have created the thread was to go over the basic fundamentals of the Yi Jing. Most People who study the Yi Jing probably don't know why are the trigrams had drawn that way; and start making interpretation of the Yi Jing. I was a little bit upset about that. I was just wondering how can people do not have a thorough understanding about the Yin-line and the Yang-line and the trigram symbols; then start talking about the heart of the Yi Jing.

Sorry to say, some of the things that you read were written by the people who do not know what the symbols mean in more refine details. They probably did not have the information available to them at the time. I have found that there were more books, written by knowledgeable native scholars, about the Yi Jing in the last two decades. IMO Those who know about the Yi Jing should be able to draw the trigrams at any instance or by heart. If you want to ask somebody about the Yi Jing, the first thing you should ask is "do you know what are the meanings of the trigrams?" Most importantly, why are they had drawn that way?

To study the symbols of the trigrams, we need to learn it from scratch and disregard what we had read in the past. Indeed, it will save us alot of time and confusion. We need to know what the symbols actually mean rather than following some misguided information.

With all respect and no offense.

Edited December 18, 2014 by ChiDragon

[zanshin]

澤 is representing the wet land or marsh. A broken line on top of two solid lines.

 

澤, Marsh

___ ___

_______

_______

 

The bottom two solid lines represents the solid ground and higher lands. The broken line on top representing something that is soft like water. Thus we have water flowing on top a soiled surface which symbolized a marsh.

It makes sense in looking at lines. But now Earth (foundation and higher lands) are yang in relation to water (yin), so more complex than to think Earth always yin and Heaven or Sky is yang?

[soaring crane]

 

A broken line representing something that had sunken already like a pot hole.

A solid line representing something that had risen already like a mountain.

 

I don't understand that. Your description indicates a kind of stagnation or stasis, like yin and yang colliding and holding each other from progressing. But the trigrams and hexagrams are all about progression, merging, separating ...

 

Two yangs below a yin = 2/3 yang power passing through 1/3 yin and likewise one yin power absorbing two yang. They'll merge proportionately, the yangs being softened by the yin; the yin being hardened by the yangs, and they'll separate, and merge in other formations. Not really in a linear timeline like that, but figuratively, that's what's constantly occurring, no?

 

The sun makes an arc in the sky and the shady side of the hill progressively becomes the sunny side.

 

The little yang acorn pushes its way out of the big yin soil, and grows into a big yang oak, with yang roots submerged in yin ground. It later begins throwing off leaves in the autumn, which in turn nourish the yin below ... At some point, the whole thing collapses and yin absorbs it again ...

 

I don't see where things 'have already' occurred. That indicates that something has stopped. Unless I'm just reading you wrong.

Edited March 25, 2014 by soaring crane

[ChiDragon]

A broken line representing something that had sunken already like a pot hole.

A solid line representing something that had risen already like a mountain.

 

I am sorry, that was a bad start. Let me rephrase that.

 

This is only to establish the attribute to the lines, so we can draw the symbol. Please do not apply any theory to confuse ourselves at this point.

A broken line represents an indentation.

A solid line represents "tall"or highrise.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

It makes sense in looking at lines. But now Earth (foundation and higher lands) are yang in relation to water (yin), so more complex than to think Earth always yin and Heaven or Sky is yang?

 

 

澤, Marsh

___ ___ Soft water

_______ Higher(lands)

_______ Solid(ground)

 

It was the attributions of higher and solid which are contributed to the lines to be Yang.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

艮 is a name designated for mountain. Two broken lines at the bottom symbolizing water and lower lands. The solid line symbolize highrise which is mountain.

艮, Mountain
_______
___ ___
___ ___

[soaring crane]

 

I am sorry, that was a bad start. Let me rephrase that.

 

This is only to establish the attribute to the lines, so we can draw the symbol. Please do not apply any theory to confuse ourselves at this point.

A broken line represents an indentation.

A solid line represents "tall"or highrise.

 

Yeah, unfettered attributes was what I was trying to get at in my first post.

 

As an analogy, would you agree that the trigrams can also be seen as slices in time, like the *children's game of 'stop dance'? (music plays, and kids dance around the room and when the music stops, they hold their position until the music starts again).

 

*adults do it too

[ChiDragon]

離: is a name designed for Fire. To set a camp fire, our ancestors are the experts. They set the sticks vertically, so the air goes through them and burns better with more heat. The two solid lines symbolize the sticks and the broken line symbolize the fire burning inside. The symbol had been turned horizontally for simplicity. Another way of looking at it is that the fire is burning in a wood burning stove. The solid lines are the bricks of the stove and the broken line is the fire burning inside.

離, Fire
_______
___ ___
_______


The Fire symbol also represents the Sun.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, unfettered attributes was what I was trying to get at in my first post.

 

As an analogy, would you agree that the trigrams can also be seen as slices in time, like the *children's game of 'stop dance'? (music plays, and kids dance around the room and when the music stops, they hold their position until the music starts again).

 

*adults do it too

 

Yes, still is Yin and motion is Yang.

[ChiDragon]

坎 is name designated for Water. The two broken lines symbolize the river beds. The solid line symbolize the flowing motion of water in a river. Thus was have a symbol for water.

坎, Water
___ ___
_______
___ ___


The Water symbol also represents the Moon.

Edited March 25, 2014 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

巽 is a name designated for Wind. The two solid lines at the top symbolize Heaven. The broken line symbolize something soft beneath the surface of Heaven. The wind can be easily seen by the moving tree top.

巽, Wind
_______
_______
___ ___

[ChiDragon]

震 is a name designated for Thunder. It also means vibration. The two top broken lines symbolize lightning striking the ground(the solid line). Thus we have the symbol as Thunder.

震, Thunder
___ ___

___ ___

_______

[ChiDragon]

Now, we have drawn the trigrams. The next thing is to find out why they were configured the way as shown in the early version(pre-heaven) Ba Gua.

[ChiDragon]

 

The Early Version BA Gua,

先天八卦.

 

The three solid line trigram is the symbol for Heaven(天), the most Yang or the yangest of the eight trigrams. Therefore, it goes to the most yang position which is the top of the Ba Gua(八卦). The top position is the most yang is because of the following:

1. It is the top which where Heaven belongs.

2. It is in the south direction.

3. The sun is the brightest and hottest at high noon which made it the yangest position.

4. It is the summer position.

Edited March 27, 2014 by ChiDragon