The Moors re-civilized Europe after the fall of Rome

[Marblehead]

No?

I'm not going to argue with you. I will continue to read this thread and make meaningless comments now and then.

[gendao]

For example, the Chinese obviously had a huge influence on modern day realities due to gunpowder, printing, and the compass, however, given that gunpowder and the compass were mostly used as tools of domination and cultural destruction, these advances can't really be compared with the influence of Ancient Egypt and the Moors.

Lol, but the Chinese only used firearms for self-defense, local expansionism and fratricide - not outright global colonialism. Although, this certainly wasn't due to lack of ability to...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de9LjXZbGRo

Zheng He (and possibly other compatriots before him) had already basically sailed around the world before Columbus did in a massive armada that dwarfed all Spanish ships of that era.

But whereas Columbus cruelly bullied, horrifically abused, sexually poached and exploited all the natives...all the Chinese explorers simply traded with them civilly or sometimes may have peacefully coexisted and eventually assimilated over time...

This was despite actually possessing far more overwhelming power and force - but choosing not to use it so unhumanely. This is CIVILIZATION vs COLONIZATION.

Columbus returned to the New World - this time armed to the teeth. Upon his arrival, he demanded that the Lucayan people give his men food and gold, and allow them to have sex with their women.

When the Lucayans refused, Columbus responded by ordering that their ears and noses be cut off, so that the now disfigured offenders could return to their villages and serve as a warning to others.

One might wonder if this domineering behavior was learned from centuries of military occupation and enslavement under the Moors - which had just ended at the same time Columbus set sail in 1492?

Anyhow, as these Oriental pearls got cast and carried to swine out further west...they increasingly misused such secondhand technology to ruthlessly conquer and exploit others. Most of which had nothing to do with weapons of warfare:

The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery, and Invention

Brings to life one hundred Chinese “firsts” in the fields of agriculture, astronomy, engineering, mathematics, medicine, music, technology, and warfare

Undisputed masters of invention and discovery for 3,000 years, the ancient Chinese were the first to discover the solar wind and the circulation of the blood and even to isolate sex hormones. From the suspension bridge and the seismograph to deep drilling for natural gas, the iron plough, and the parachute, ancient China’s contributions in the fields of engineering, medicine, technology, mathematics, science, transportation, warfare, and music helped inspire the European agricultural and industrial revolutions.

Edited April 16, 2014 by vortex

[Nungali]

I think early in the posts somewhere there was a caveat about China

 

... China doesnt count .

[Apech]

Surely the fact that Vasco da Gama managed his voyage is such a small craft is more impressive than the Chinese.

[gendao]

Surely the fact that Vasco da Gama managed his voyage is such a small craft is more impressive than the Chinese.

You're so right!! Backtracking established shipping routes around Africa and India gained from sending spies desperately searching for gold is soooo much more impressive than an orderly, respectful armada pioneering its own trade routes! As is ruthlessly ransacking and killing the locals mercilessly!

Vasco da Gama inflicted acts of cruelty upon competing traders and local inhabitants, which sealed his notoriety in India. During his second voyage to Calicut, da Gama intercepted a ship of Muslim pilgrims at Madayi travelling from Calicut to Mecca. Described in detail by eyewitness Thomé Lopes and chronicler Gaspar Correia as one that is unequalled in cold-blooded cruelty, da Gama looted the ship with over 400 pilgrims on board including 50 women, locked in the passengers, the owner and an ambassador from Egypt and burnt them to death.

All hail the Conquistadors!

 

Too bad they also didn't get the memo on how to prevent scurvy from the Chinese, who had already figured out how to ensure an ongoing supply of nutrients and Vitamin C from sprouting soybeans onboard.

Vasco da Gama's fleet finally arrived in Malindi on 7 January 1499, in a terrible shape – approximately half of the crew had died during the crossing, and many of the rest were afflicted with scurvy.

how could such long voyages be carried out with little or no evidence of serious sickness? The combined fleets were crewed by about 30,000 people, putting an enormous strain upon the food resources. Although they traded and foraged for fresh foods at their various ports of call, the long sea passages would have exhausted such supplies.

One of the Chinese fleets carried a historian, Ma Huan, whose diaries (“The overall survey of the ocean shores”, 1433) recorded how the fleets solved the problem.

Apparently, these diaries record that, unlike the supplies of weevil-ridden, ship’s biscuit carried on the later British fleets, the Chinese supply ships carried staples of soy beans, wheat, millet and rice, which could be stored for long periods without loss of nutritional value. These could be cooked fresh. In addition, the ships carried chickens, fed by the cereals, for fresh eggs and meat.

The soy beans were of particular importance. All the ships carried open tubs in which the soy beans were sprouted in sunlight, developing large quantities of riboflavin, niacin and, most importantly, vitamin C. Daily consumption of sprouted soy would provide more than enough vitamin C to prevent scurvy.

As Gavin Menzies suggests, providing soy bean sprouts would have required a considerable degree of foresight and organisation. In other words, he thinks, the Chinese mariners must have known about the prevention of scurvy long before 1421, perhaps from even earlier voyages.

Edited April 17, 2014 by vortex

[Apech]

You're so right!! Backtracking established shipping routes around Africa and India gained from sending spies desperately searching for gold is soooo much more impressive than an orderly, respectful armada pioneering its own trade routes! As is ruthlessly ransacking and killing the locals mercilessly!

All hail the Conquistadors!

 

Too bad they also didn't get the memo on how to prevent scurvy from the Chinese, who had already figured out how to ensure an ongoing supply of nutrients and Vitamin C from sprouting soybeans onboard.

 

Details.

[Nungali]

Surely the fact that Vasco da Gama managed his voyage is such a small craft is more impressive than the Chinese.

 

Then those guys that paddled to Easter Island in a canoe must be .....

[Apech]

Then those guys that paddled to Easter Island in a canoe must be .....

 

...the best ... no doubt.

[Nungali]

Nuh ... my prize goes to the guy that started off as a prisoner in China, floated across the ocean on a mattress and ended up as a successful Australian businessman.

 

( Whose convoluted and ultimately fortuitous outcome might actually hold analogies to the settlement of Easter Island. ? )

Edited April 18, 2014 by Nungali

[Apech]

Nuh ... my prize goes to the guy that started off as a prisoner in China, floated across the ocean on a mattress and ended up as a successful Australian businessman.

 

( Whose convoluted and ultimately fortuitous outcome might actually hold analogies to the settlement of Easter Island. ? )

 

he had a mattress ... softy ...

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Once more I find myself meditating upon good Nungali's words.

 

I always enjoy Nungali's posts.

 

He is wize knower fer sure.

 

on edit: The op title sounds too political for my liking. So, no comment. No sirree.

 

The Moors re-civilized Europe after the fall of Rome.

...

Edited April 18, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Nungali]

Earlier sea voyages before 1421 !!!

 

 

 

I don't know why the Chinese bothered to sail to America during the last ice age ... they could have just walked to Australia instead ..... gosh! Sth east asia is bigger than the Indian sub-continent !

Edited April 18, 2014 by Nungali

[Apech]

Earlier sea voyages before 1421 !!!

 

 

 

I don't know why the Chinese bothered to sail to America during the last ice age ... they could have just walked to Australia instead ..... gosh! Sth east asia is bigger than the Indian sub-continent !

 

 

Perhaps they got cold feet.

[Marblehead]

Perhaps they got cold feet.

Yes, it's likely our feet would get colder during an ice age.

[Formless Tao]

Lol, but the Chinese only used firearms for self-defense, local expansionism and fratricide - not outright global colonialism. Although, this certainly wasn't due to lack of ability to...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de9LjXZbGRo

Zheng He (and possibly other compatriots before him) had already basically sailed around the world before Columbus did in a massive armada that dwarfed all Spanish ships of that era.

But whereas Columbus cruelly bullied, horrifically abused, sexually poached and exploited all the natives...all the Chinese explorers simply traded with them civilly or sometimes may have peacefully coexisted and eventually assimilated over time...

This was despite actually possessing far more overwhelming power and force - but choosing not to use it so unhumanely. This is CIVILIZATION vs COLONIZATION.

One might wonder if this domineering behavior was learned from centuries of military occupation and enslavement under the Moors - which had just ended at the same time Columbus set sail in 1492?

Anyhow, as these Oriental pearls got cast and carried to swine out further west...they increasingly misused such secondhand technology to ruthlessly conquer and exploit others. Most of which had nothing to do with weapons of warfare:

You're so right!! Backtracking established shipping routes around Africa and India gained from sending spies desperately searching for gold is soooo much more impressive than an orderly, respectful armada pioneering its own trade routes! As is ruthlessly ransacking and killing the locals mercilessly!

All hail the Conquistadors!

 

Too bad they also didn't get the memo on how to prevent scurvy from the Chinese, who had already figured out how to ensure an ongoing supply of nutrients and Vitamin C from sprouting soybeans onboard.

Yes Gavin Menzies 1421 and 1434 books are great.

 

Actaully is Semarang on the island of Java in Indonesia there is a Chinese temple dedicated solely to Zheng He and his worldly travels.

 

Zheng He actually stopped off in Semarang and there are Anchors from some of his ships on display.

 

An impressive dedication to Zheng Hes' memory...

Edited April 19, 2014 by Formless Tao

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Interesting history about Chinese voyaging, but it's not like China has any better a track record for human rights abuse than anyone else.

 

Again (again, again, again, again), this is not about who is more civilized than whom, it is about the simple fact that people we would say are "black," today, were at the top of the socio-economic pyramid in most of (and later less of) Europe for nearly as long as (the history of) the United States has existed. I think this has been well demonstrated up to and including post #50 here. Of course, once the previous arguments against this had been squashed, this topic was forgotten and those rebuttals not even responded to.

 

Why can't you all just admit this simple historical fact? It's not about the side details, etc., etc., etc.. This is the fact I'm trying to show, but nobody will admit that I have proven them wrong about it. They argue on the side details while skirting around the principle issue.

 

I'm not saying this topic needs to be locked because it is going off topic or anything to that matter, btw.

 

Just say it folks: "The Moors brought education, hygiene, medicine, math, science, and literacy back into the cultural milieu of Europe while they ruled about half of western Europe, and the vast overwhelming majority of the Moors who remained settled in Europe were black-Africans. Therefore, it was black-Africans who had the most power, education, and wealth in Europe while these developments took hold."

 

I'm glad that you have all corrected me on some of the details regarding dates and changes over time to the map (the moving map is incomplete, btw, considering that the Moors held power in Italy and parts of France as well). However, it was approx. 300 years before the Moors started to lose much territory, and the black-African Moors had already been holding their sense of moral and cultural superiority (narcissistic nationalism) over the Europeans for 300 years, the same way "white-Christian America(ns)" held it over black-Africans for over 300 years and still do.

 

I appreciate that it takes up time to look at this, but this issue's been sitting a long time too!

Edited April 19, 2014 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

Just say it folks: "The Moors brought education, hygiene, medicine, math, science, and literacy back into the cultural milieu of Europe while they ruled about half of western Europe, and the vast overwhelming majority of the Moors who remained settled in Europe were black-Africans. Therefore, it was black-Africans who had the most power, education, and wealth in Europe while these developments took hold."

I have never failed to give credit where credit is due, regardless of a person's skin color.

 

However, I think it would be very difficult to support the above statement with valid, supported, historical fact.

 

And BTW Neil Tyson is doing a great job hosting the new Cosmos series.

[Marblehead]

And Morgan Freeman is still doing a great job hosting "Through The Wormhole".

 

And Samual Jackson was (may still be) the highest paid actor in Hollywood.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I have never failed to give credit where credit is due, regardless of a person's skin color.

 

However, I think it would be very difficult to support the above statement with valid, supported, historical fact.

 

And BTW Neil Tyson is doing a great job hosting the new Cosmos series.

 

If you take the time to read or re-read my posts here -- not whatsoever.

[Marblehead]

If you take the time to read or re-read my posts here -- not whatsoever.

I have read all your posts. I do not agree with your conclusions.

 

I am speaking with you here; I am not speaking in favor of nor against any group of people.

 

I have stated my opinions and understnadings. I have presented some contradictory information to information you have presented.

 

I do not speak of "races of people" although I do naturally notice that some people have lighter skin color than do other people. When I was younger I had rather dark skin as I spent a lot of time in the sun getting my body tanned.

 

Whenever we go beyond judging the individual according to the attributes of the individual we will error. That is the bottom line thought I have been presenting here all along.

 

I judge Mother Teresa differently than I judge Adolf Hitler. Mother Teresa was a pure white saint - Httler was a "N".

 

Spanish people are mixed with the Arabic people, not sub-Saharan Blacks as are the peoples of Southern Italy and many other places in Asia and Europe.

 

Yes indeed, the Moors did keep the sciences alive while most of Europe was mired down in its Dark Ages. It is my opinion, however, that we should stop there because to try to define what people comprised the Moors would surely cause disagreements as can be easily noted in this thread.

[GrandmasterP]

It was all quite a long time ago too.

Hardly worth getting all het up about here in 2014.

Edited April 20, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

It was all quite a long time ago too.

Hardly worth getting all het up about here in 2014.

True. And the peoples being spoken of don't even call themselves Moors but rather Maghrebis.

[GrandmasterP]

Berbers and Tauregs too.

Those blue veiled lads in Marrakech would not thank anyone for calling them 'Moors'.

Very hospitable folks but best to stay on the right side of 'em.

" When in Rome."

Edited April 20, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Yeah, those peoples have a history that isn't very nice most of the time and they just don't want other people messing with them any more. I can't blame them for that. I would likely feel the same way.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You're all free to disagree if you so choose, but take a look again at this fact (post #50)

 

"Another group of slaves who rose to positions of great power, the military slaves, were normally liberated at some stage in their career, and their offspring were therefore free and not slaves."

 

Now, how did the Moors come to Europe? As a military. So if the military slaves were normally freed and then all their successive generations were born free, and all the paintings from as early as you go back show the battles with black-African soldiers peppered here and there with light-skinned soldiers, then I think it's quite obvious. Consider too that the non-Africans had reason to go back to their home lands, while the black-Africans were far more motivated to stay in the Iberian colonies where they were free and holding positions of power. People that are successful breed like rabbits too, so this population would only increase, rapidly.

 

Remember, it's been well over 500 years since the Moors held power in Europe, and since white-Christians would even consider mixing with non-whites in Europe (until rather recently, and not talking about the USA here). So it's no wonder that there are only slight traces of black-African features in the Iberian peninsula. Those traces are over 500 years old with virtually zero continuation of the lines since then, and intense white-Christian-supremacist propaganda ensuring that those lines disappeared once the Moors had basically disappeared from Europe.