Justifying the nature of the carnivore

[Rara]

I have been thinking about this one recently and want to share my thoughts. Other than the obvious observation that historically, the majority of living things have simply gone about eating their prey for survival, I would like to add to this.

 

I'm not talking about moral choices here. I wrote a thread on turning vegetarian a while ago and I stopped the practice after 3 weeks. I felt that my 'morals' were more of an illusion, or even a confusion and that vegetarianism wasn't a part of my nature.

 

What I am wanting to do is not go down that road of debating right from wrong, but the nature in how things occur.

 

Here is my recent thought:

 

The stomach is a predator. What happens if we do not eat? The stomach eats away at us...until we (and of course, it) die.

 

 

So we are born to be slaves nourishing it. We cannot help this fact. The stomach certainly likes flesh - can we deny that?

 

So by eating meat, are we simply feeding something what it needs? I don't want to say "something that it wants", because that would imply that it has a mind of its own. That is also probably something that I expect to fall into this convo though!

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Rara

[idiot_stimpy]

The stomach certainly likes flesh - can we deny that?

 

I can deny it. Maybe you cannot?

[GrandmasterP]

It's not what we put into our mouths as food that matters it's what comes out as words.

I reckon people are happiest eating the foods their mum cooked for them when they were kids.

If it's anyone's karma to be born into a meat eating family no biggie, same for those born onto a veggie family.

' Converting' from what one was brought up to into something different is sometimes a symptom of 'dis'- ease with one's self or one's upbringing.

Suffering is a constant and apparent escape routes from it look inviting.

Take the escape route and when it's been taken, we're still the same person - eating a different dinner.

Edited March 25, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Age Sage]

The human body is evolved to extract sustenance from a wide variety of foods, and that's what has allowed us to colonize and inhabit diverse environments on most of the planet. If we live in the Arctic where there's little plant material to eat, we can eat meat and fish. If we're in the tropics or First World culture where there are numerous options, we can choose to eat mainly plant materials. However, we are evolved to require vitamin B12, which is only available in animal products - meat, eggs, milk, fish and shellfish, insects and insect larvae, earthworms, etc.... which indicates that we really are meant to eat at least some animal-derived food).

 

Medical evidence has borne out that eating too much meat in anywhere but sub-freezing environment (where fats and proteins are quickly utilized to maintain body warmth) is not healthy and will lead to blood lipid issues and the health problems related to that. My personal opinion is "a little bit goes a long way." Some people eat a piece of meat, poultry or fish the size of a deck of cards maybe once a week, or a couple times a month.

 

As cognitive animals, we don't need to justify anything that is wired into our evolutionary natures. Rather than fight any urge to eat meat, if someone has a personal belief about avoiding it, then simply acknowledge any cravings and then pop a B12...

[Marblehead]

Yeah, we evolved to eat meat. Some people now-a-days refuse to eat meat. That's fine as long as they stay healthy with what they do eat.

 

I eat very little red meat anymore because my body doesn't need it. But I still eat fish and fowl because I am pretty active and I need the protein.

 

Digesting veggies take a lot longer than it takes to digest meats. That is why many animals have more than one stomach or they have eating processes like cattle have. Rabbits even eat their own doo-doo because most of what they eat doesn't get digested the first time around.

[Brian]

I don't think the carnivore feels a need to justify its nature.

[Rara]

 

I can deny it. Maybe you cannot?

Oh? Please elaborate...

 

Going on the basis that the stomach eats the person if it isn't fed...

[liminal_luke]

Some thoughts...

 

Eating draws us into relationship with the outside world. Like all relationships, it can be free and easy or fraught with difficulty. Metaphorically, the stomach and associated meridian, reflect our willingness to enter into relationship with the earth and earthly (ie dirty) experience. Can we digest--stomach--the experiences of our lives? Can we efficiently absorb into our being nutrition from the outside; can we then let go of what's not needed?

 

I think this prospective provides a useful lens with which to look at questions of diet. What does our choice of foods say about our relationship with the earth element within our bodies, and the larger Earth outside of us? Do we welcome the inter-relatedness with the Earth that having a body requires or does it seem problematic?

 

Liminal

[Zhongyongdaoist]

The human animal is an omnivore. Human beings can be whatever they want. Most people confuse sentiment and squeamishness with morality. Here is an interesting suggestion:

Bugs, they're what a body needs

[Infinity]

I rationalised my dietary choices for many years and now I don't.

 

My opinion now is eat what you feel but get in touch with what your feelings are so you can feel what you want to eat.

 

However I do firmly believe that we should respect animals if we eat them both before and at death and maybe even after(see below)???

 

Saw a programme years ago on Papua New Guinea I think and a tribe there used to keep all the skulls of the animals they had killed in their hut lofts so their spirits would not seek revenge for being killed by them.

 

∞

[Marblehead]

Here is an interesting suggestion:

 

 

I remember eating chocolate covered ants when I was a kid.

[Marblehead]

Saw a programme years ago on Papua New Guinea I think and a tribe there used to keep all the skulls of the animals they had killed in their hut lofts so their spirits would not seek revenge for being killed by them. ∞

And if you looked close you would have seen some human skulls in there too.

[Rara]

I don't think the carnivore feels a need to justify its nature.

Sure, by all means Some searching the forum still might be debating this though, and therefore an argument to help justify is always healthy.

 

I find the idea "the stomach is a predator that doesn't justify, just eats the body", as a perfect justification in an argument.

 

Please note all, I am not talking about anything else here, like nutrients that the body needs. Merely the characteristic of the stomach and its desire to feed on stuff every few hours!

Edited March 25, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Please note all, I am not talking about anything else here, like nutrients that the body needs. Merely the characteristic of the stomach and its desire to feed on stuff every few hours!

Well sure, if we are hungry (our stomach is growling) it will be satisfied with anything it can digest.

[Rara]

Lol, end of thread. That was quick. Only one page...that's sort of a relief.

[Rara]

Saw a programme years ago on Papua New Guinea I think and a tribe there used to keep all the skulls of the animals they had killed in their hut lofts so their spirits would not seek revenge for being killed by them.∞

Personally I would come back to claim what was mine. Mwuhaha!

[soaring crane]

I have been thinking about this one recently and want to share my thoughts. Other than the obvious observation that historically, the majority of living things have simply gone about eating their prey for survival, I would like to add to this.

 

I'm not talking about moral choices here. I wrote a thread on turning vegetarian a while ago and I stopped the practice after 3 weeks. I felt that my 'morals' were more of an illusion, or even a confusion and that vegetarianism wasn't a part of my nature.

 

What I am wanting to do is not go down that road of debating right from wrong, but the nature in how things occur.

 

Here is my recent thought:

 

The stomach is a predator. What happens if we do not eat? The stomach eats away at us...until we (and of course, it) die.

 

 

So we are born to be slaves nourishing it. We cannot help this fact. The stomach certainly likes flesh - can we deny that?

 

So by eating meat, are we simply feeding something what it needs? I don't want to say "something that it wants", because that would imply that it has a mind of its own. That is also probably something that I expect to fall into this convo though!

 

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

 

I find your OP very interesting, but confusing. Would it be possible for you to refine your thoughts a little and re-phrase it? I do understand that your point was not to provoke (yet another, sigh) debate about vegetarianism vs omnivorism (of that's a word, which it probably isn't)

 

It seems to me ,you're talking about raw nature, animal survival instinct. You're talking about the stomach of the devout vegan that will devour the first animal to cross its path when the choice is between starving to death and living another day. A system so bent on survival, it'll begin to devour component parts of itself, rather than die. Something like that?

[Stosh]

Morals exist because humans invent them ,

coming to grips with them is advisable,

whatever they turn out to be.

 

But they can be based on silliness ,

OR

the handed down wisdom of ages..

 

 

( which could still be silliness,, just old silliness)

 

The natural world is all tied together , on a finite earth, eat and be eaten in turn.

The arbirtary and theoretical innocence of plants , goes out the window ,

when you watch time lapse struggles between them.

But even so ,

would it make more sense to eat the innocent than the guilty?

COuld being vegetarian to be a ' better person" if betterment was illusory ?

My cat knows no 'betterment' , no good or evil ( as we look at it)

but if I forced her to eat only vegetables

The result would only be cultivating a vegetarian cat.

How pointless would that be?

[silent thunder]

Each organ in turn has its own awareness, its own agenda and territory

The merging and menacing interplay of the organs is itself a drama and a comedy at once.

In turns pulling, pushing, mangling, healing and snoozing.

 

It's a wonder we can coordinate it all well enough to get out of bed in the morning and walk across the room.

-Creighton

[Rara]

A system so bent on survival, it'll begin to devour component parts of itself, rather than die. Something like that?

Yes exactly. It has no shame in eating away at the body that holds it and, then itself.

 

What made me realise this was when I went to see a friend's relative at the weekend. He had stomach cancer and I saw him the day before he died. I didn't recognise him - the once 14 stone (roughly 200 lb) man was barely recognisable. His skin wrapped so tightly around his body. He hadn't been able to eat hardly anything in weeks.

 

This is what the body chose for survival. To eat the flesh, whether he wanted to or not.

[Rara]

The human animal is an omnivore. Human beings can be whatever they want. Most people confuse sentiment and squeamishness with morality. Here is an interesting suggestion:

 

Bugs, they're what a body needs

Wow. Fascinating article!

[Rara]

The human body is evolved to extract sustenance from a wide variety of foods, and that's what has allowed us to colonize and inhabit diverse environments on most of the planet. If we live in the Arctic where there's little plant material to eat, we can eat meat and fish. If we're in the tropics or First World culture where there are numerous options, we can choose to eat mainly plant materials. However, we are evolved to require vitamin B12, which is only available in animal products - meat, eggs, milk, fish and shellfish, insects and insect larvae, earthworms, etc.... which indicates that we really are meant to eat at least some animal-derived food).

 

Medical evidence has borne out that eating too much meat in anywhere but sub-freezing environment (where fats and proteins are quickly utilized to maintain body warmth) is not healthy and will lead to blood lipid issues and the health problems related to that. My personal opinion is "a little bit goes a long way." Some people eat a piece of meat, poultry or fish the size of a deck of cards maybe once a week, or a couple times a month.

 

As cognitive animals, we don't need to justify anything that is wired into our evolutionary natures. Rather than fight any urge to eat meat, if someone has a personal belief about avoiding it, then simply acknowledge any cravings and then pop a B12...

I like this as it also links to the article re the way we a) have evolved and b ) can continue to evolve!

 

But nothing will ever change the nature of the stomach's decision to feed on itself.

 

Stosh's comment then, about the morals being therefore yet another illusion, is absolutely spot on!

Edited March 26, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

But nothing will ever change the nature of the stomach's decision to feed on itself.

 

 

True because that is the nature of the beast.

[mYTHmAKER]

too much rationalization. it all boils down to desire.

[GrandmasterP]

Some people like beef-burgers.

Others prefer cheese sandwiches.

We're all different.