iron shirt chi kung

[mantis]

after seeing a few kung fu flicks i have now seen this in a movie twice, either labeled as iron shirt qi gong or steel armour. (born invincible and shaolin martial arts respectively). i understand the basic concept of using chi to nourish your armor and absorb blows but even still it seems to fascinate me. is anyone here capable of the technique? i know it is terribly secretive so i do not expect a wide array of conversation i am just a little curious.

[Sahaj Nath]

after seeing a few kung fu flicks i have now seen this in a movie twice, either labeled as iron shirt qi gong or steel armour. (born invincible and shaolin martial arts respectively). i understand the basic concept of using chi to nourish your armor and absorb blows but even still it seems to fascinate me. is anyone here capable of the technique? i know it is terribly secretive so i do not expect a wide array of conversation i am just a little curious.

 

 

actually, it's not all that secretive at all. there are tons of books (some better than others) that deal with the subject as well as give training tips. shaolin still practices iron shirt, and they teach it openly. healing tao university offers iron shirt as one of their fundamentals. come to think of it, i'm having trouble thinking of any system with martial roots that doesn't offer some form of iron shirt training.

 

i don't know what fantastic feats you saw in these movies, but iron shirt really isn't all that complicated. the conditioning process is long and can be painful, but there's no real magic to it. you won't be able to stop bullets or anything. you take thousands of blows and condition your body. you pack qi in your limbs and torso to nourish your body. then you take thousands of blows to condition your body.

 

i say that more in jest; it's not quite that simple. but it's not all that complicated or mystical, either.

 

 

back when i was a fighter, i could take a bat to the ribs with little problem. i wouldn't dream of trying it now.

 

i can still break bricks, but it doesn't take iron shirt training to do that.

 

 

there were even a couple of parlor tricks i could perform, but they didn't make me special or fulfilled as i thought they would.

 

but what WAS significant was that i was less aware of the subtleties in my body, and i sustained organ damage as a result of stress.

 

let me emphasize: i did NOT sustain damage from any blow. i sustained damage from continued stress, and much of that stress was a result of my training at the time.

 

 

so it depends on the degree to which you take it.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Hundun

[Mal]

Yes most complete forms of Kung Fu will have a type of Iron body conditioning involved. In my style it is called Golden Bell reather than Iron shirt. It's not hard to learn, but takes a long time to acheive results. We build up the power of our strikes very slowly so there is no brusing or calloses etc. It's the breathing part that is the most important.

 

As mentioned there are heaps of books (I have read the healing tao Iron Shirt I) but I never had much luck learning it till I got a teacher.

 

p.s. I can't stop bullets or do any cool tricks like in the movies

[mantis]

i see. i've been reading mantak chia's awaken healing energy. i was thinking of going here (http://www.shaolins.com/) when i'm a little older considering i'm only 17 now and train for a year or two. according to the website if you train there for 3 years (roughly 4,000 dollars for the 4 years), you'll learn authentic shaolin kung fu (which includes iron shirt and much much more.) i lied, here's the real prices!

 

There is a sizeable discount for students who enroll for one year or longer and pay the fees annually up-front. The total cost if paid up-front annually (including the $150. reservation fee and $100. escort fee, administration fee and 12-month tuition fee and 12-months room and board fee) is as follows: $4,800. USD for the first year, $4,050. for the second year, $3,650. for the third year, $3,350. for the fourth year, and $3,050. for the fifth year and thereafter. These annual rates are subject to change according to inflation and the cost of living in China.

 

after reading i'm not too sure if the $3,350 for the fourth year is only for that year rather than the entire package. i'm beginning to think it's for that year exclusively. ah damn.

 

i've been messing around on my own visualizing chi from the earth going into my body and forming a ivory-colored inner body. i then try to do painful things like kicking a bag or something (boxing bag, that is) and i'm not sure if it's just my mind strengthening but it doesn't really hurt as much.

Edited July 27, 2007 by mantis

[Neijia]

I think that Iron shirt and golden bell are two different things, and even then there are various methods to obtaining iron shirt.

Weigong or hard (Shaolin) iron shirt is hard physical conditioning with small emphasis on the actual qigong of Iron shirt qigong. Neigong or soft (Taoist) on the other hand is just the opposite, instead concentrating on the packing of weiqi (unrefined chi) into the expanded fascia of the body, with less concern given towards beating the shit out of yourself in order to take a hit.

 

As you might expect, the Neigong method takes a lot longer (years), but you engeander amazing results without a loss of sensitivity. And once you have it, you don't lose it like you would if you stopped practicing the hard method. It seems that the results are even more impressive the more soft the practice, though a kind of iron shirt is obtained through any prolonged practice of the internal as the bones become like steel.

 

 

Anyway, I'm not really familiar with the Mantak Chia method. I've kind of been wary of the Healing Tao system, and now esp. after reading some information about them on this forum.

Edited July 28, 2007 by Neijia

[mantis]

could you explain why this is so? currently mantak chia's system is essentially all i have. i am only 17 so going anywhere that isn't walking distance is pretty much impossible. using his books i have been doing the large heavenly cycle or the full microcosmic orbit (whereas the original is simply the torso this one includes the legs and arms) for two days now.

 

i have been looking for authentic systems online for some time but this proves to be futile in that a lot of marketers claim "authenticity" to allure those who seek the authentic way. another thing i've noticed is that a lot of systems also appear "dumbed down" for westerners, which is something i don't want. why? because it is something i plan on dedicating time to, not just so i can feel relaxed.

[thelerner]

I did some Kaishan Mountain gi gung a few years back. A golden bell style. It was fun. I just got to the beginner level. During demos the instructors both ladies would invite people to hit them hard in the stomach. Practice involved a standing guided meditation. Rubbing an herbal formula on your stomach (before and after practice). Hitting areas on your stomach area quite a few times. As weeks went by you'd hit harder and harder.

 

I quit just when I was ready to advance to wooden brick stage (that is hitting myself w/ a wooden brick(that had been prepared in herbal solution)). The advanced classes looked very masochistic, w/ people getting hit by others w/ hefty sticks pretty hard. But it was mellow group. The practice was to strengthen and awaken the internal organs.

 

Supposedly it was a rare authentic style. The head (who I never met) muck a muck was supposed to be an amazing powerful mystical fellow. If you're interested in walking on the harder side you should check it out.

 

Michael

 

 

There was a tapping routine from the breast bone down and along the lower ribcage that I got from them that I still use. They also had a wonderful and unique guided Longevity meditation, it went from lighting up the bone structure (which is common enough) but also regressed you back to a new born baby, then up to a healthy 180 year old then back to your own age. It has you feel both ages at the same time. In between it has you sitting a pine forrest w/ your animal friends. Nice, as I said definitely unique.

[sunshine]

could you explain why this is so? currently mantak chia's system is essentially all i have. i am only 17 so going anywhere that isn't walking distance is pretty much impossible. using his books i have been doing the large heavenly cycle or the full microcosmic orbit (whereas the original is simply the torso this one includes the legs and arms) for two days now.

 

Heyhi,

 

do yourself a big big favor. Better not to mess around with those practices if you do not have a teacher to rely on. Regarding Chia. Some will say he teaches authentic stuff, others say: well. He does not really...

 

you will have to find out for yourself, but my advise in the first sentence holds true whichever way.

 

 

Harry

[mantis]

the problem is like i've said before is i'm 17 and cannot spend thousands or hundreds of dollars flying out to meet teachers or go to seminars.

[Sahaj Nath]

Heyhi,

 

do yourself a big big favor. Better not to mess around with those practices if you do not have a teacher to rely on. Regarding Chia. Some will say he teaches authentic stuff, others say: well. He does not really...

 

you will have to find out for yourself, but my advise in the first sentence holds true whichever way.

 

 

Harry

 

 

normally i would take issue with this type of advice, but i find myself in total agreement in this case.

 

you're young, and you seem to be a little too caught up in the fantasy side of cultivation practice. you're trying to take shortcuts when you don't even know what you're playing with yet.

 

if you believe in the power of it all, then you should also believe that certain practices, if done incorrectly (without proper guidance), could cause personal damage that could set your progress back a few years.

 

in my opinion, you're not ready for the macrocosmic orbit. period. at best, it's useless to you right now; at worse, you could end up with dizziness, headaches, digestive problems, and all manner of psychological instability because you haven't done the preparatory cleansing and nourishing work.

 

slow down. first learn to breathe deep, relax, embrace simplicity, and be mindful of the present moment. if you start here, and if you don't rush things, you'll be amazed by the world that begins to reveal itself to you.

 

there's so much for you to explore. don't miss out on the entire world by trying to rush to some superficial goal that seems like everything. the true everything is happening right now.

 

 

i think one of the best books you could pick up right now is The Healing Promise of Qi by Roger Jahnke. i use it as my standard textbook for all of my students. it's beautifully written, extremely easy to understand, and very thorough with the stages of qi cultivation. you can play around with a lot of stuff in there, and it's all safe. you'll learn TONS about the nature of qi and how to develop it.

 

 

first learn about qi and discover its flow in yourself and your environment. you may discover that the martial applications aren't even the most exciting. it can be a really fun exploration, so take your time.

 

if you rush, you may never get there.

[mantis]

i've been meditating a little over 2 years now - simply on different practices as i've been looking around for what fits me the best. everytime i end the microcosmic orbit i feel balanced and filled with energy as i store the energy safely in the navel so that no part of my body will overheat. i really am not caught up with the "fantasy" side i was just curious towards information on the subject.

 

i already feel qi and can tell when it's flowing - sometimes i feel it even when i'm not meditating or trying to. i don't know if i worded myself improperly to lead you to that conclusion.

[sunshine]

i already feel qi and can tell when it's flowing - sometimes i feel it even when i'm not meditating or trying to. i don't know if i worded myself improperly to lead you to that conclusion.

 

This is a lengthy topic and I am by far not qualified to truly comment on it... but one thing I can tell you: out there there are some authorities that might tell you that "feeling the qi" is not "feeling the qi"... that there is a difference between the illusionary and the true... etc. etc. etc.

 

one question though: are you able to sit and have a perfectly still mind for even just one minute?

 

 

Harry

[Sahaj Nath]

i've been meditating a little over 2 years now - simply on different practices as i've been looking around for what fits me the best. everytime i end the microcosmic orbit i feel balanced and filled with energy as i store the energy safely in the navel so that no part of my body will overheat. i really am not caught up with the "fantasy" side i was just curious towards information on the subject.

 

i already feel qi and can tell when it's flowing - sometimes i feel it even when i'm not meditating or trying to. i don't know if i worded myself improperly to lead you to that conclusion.

 

 

i'm not your teacher, so it's not my business, i guess. i'll just comment a little on your response, and then i'll leave it alone.

 

any experienced person reading this thread would question the quality of your practice these past two years.

 

a.) it sounds like 'fantasy' seeking when you begin by saying you learned about it in kung fu flicks. it sounds even moreseo like 'fantasy' seeking when you presume that this relatively basic martial arts practice is, as you put it, "terribly secretive."

 

b.) your "messing around" practice of visualizing earth qi creating an inner ivory-colored body and then going over to hit stuff to see if 'it works' makes sense only if you're a novice. two years of real meditation would never have led to this experiment of yours.

 

 

c.) perhaps you just didn't explain explain everything, but i'm not convinced that your practice of the orbit is safe. you didn't even mention the perineum or the tongue. and your description of what you feel afterwards is an effect of deep breathing, not orbital flow.

 

 

i'm a person who has was proficient at iron shirt. i'm a person who teaches safe orbital flow and who has experienced (in the past) some of the negative side-effects of incorrect practice. i'm not wasting my time here just to be judgmental of you. but you need some real training and deeper understanding before you can lay claim to two years of meditation experience. your own words betray that fact.

 

feel free to ignore me. but i still say that you should slow down. keep it simple. you're missing out on a world of learning experiences by thinking you're further along than you actually are.

 

in the end, it's your path. it's your choice.

[宁]

I think feeling the qi is not of the elite.

We all feel it, some begin to feel it consciously.

To be aware of the fact that they actually feel it.

One of the guys I like to think of as being a teacher to me, said that when he first felt energy, and saw the lines of the energy, and the flowing of the streams of energy in the universe, he was very sad.

Twas because he realized that he saw them all the time. But he wasnt aware of them.

 

Awareness can be trained.

The locus of awareness is what daoists call the Dan Tian.

The traditionalists belive that these things cannot be explained by science.

And that science cant even begin to ponder at them.

But it's not like that.

 

It's like by some Heavenly Decree, we were granted the equal right to develop and evolve.

No one can take this from you.

But you can give that away, if you want to.

 

My advice is to get along and deal with the real world first.

Get a good life going on, finish school, find your counterpart, get a job or make a business, and then, after you become proficient at dealing with the real world, any master will have more faith in your ability to understand the practice of the Dao.

This means rooting for daoists: having a balanced day-life, to be able to sustain the night-life, the part of your life that is in direct contact with the Heavens.

Without that, any "real" ability of rooting is just... how Winn said, "circus qigong". You may want to pursue that to impress your friends. I do that too, now and then. But I dont confuse that with rooting in everyday life and common sense. It is the best preparation I can get.

I always remember that occult principle that says: As above, so below. There is nothing different out there. It all obeys the same laws. This is what makes the Universe united.

 

Good luck!

[mantis]

well hundun that's because like i said in my post, i have not stuck to daoism for those 2 years, i have tried and went through a variety of practices. it fascinates me because it's not like all the other techniques or forms of meditation in which you simply visualize things - it's a way of knowing you're on the right path since it's concrete, something you can see and feel.

 

i didn't mention the palette because it's basic and i feel i'd just be trying to prove myself too hard. sunshine, i can sit for half an hour or possibly more with an empty mind. i don't know what's the cause of all of this but for some reason just because iron shirt is interesting to me i am being put as if i had just google'd the word meditation five minutes before making this topic.

[sunshine]

i don't know what's the cause of all of this but for some reason just because iron shirt is interesting to me i am being put as if i had just google'd the word meditation five minutes before making this topic.

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... all the advise given by everybody responding to you is based on something I call compassion. I would not agree with everything being said, as not everybody agrees with what I said. But I tell you... I went your path and failed and I know people who went through the same - and for each of them it takes a long time to recover!

 

You believe you know anything about meditation by reading about it? Fine. I read about it and got nowhere, I read about things, practiced them and damaged myself... it is all not that obvious in the beginning... it is not like somebody rams a knife into your heart and you know something is wrong... it is more like a little bleeding wound in your stomach which you get weaker from continuously...

 

My advise given was not to scold you... far from it...!

 

If you truly are able to keep your mind fully still for that extended period of time you are a lucky man. Maybe a true teacher will recognize you for it and guide you... but for your own benefit: forget about making it a "do-it-myself-experiment-class"...

 

by the way. I did not respond to your IronShirt interest, but to your description of what kind of practices you do.

 

 

Harry

[mantis]

yes after re-reading my posts i can see where i became a little upset - sorry for that. i can also see what hundun is talking about when i mention moving to fast. i am indeed fairly new to taoism but i figured since i have practiced meditation for a very long time in other arts i'd be able to excel faster.

 

i will too admit that i am indeed fascinated by the techniques and do wish to acquire them as i mentioned in my last post as in my opinion i could use them as a means of proof. proof that those collected hours and hours of meditating isn't just in your mind and that it can affect the physical world as well.

 

perhaps i should take it back a step or two and simply watch my mind in peace and find where i am. thank you for your post, sunshine, and everyone else who has posted in this topic. i think i simply will keep that as my meditation - looking at my mind. perhaps when i do find a teacher i'll know where to go from then.

[sunshine]

 

Take your time and read through this forum. You might find a teacher spoken about here, that catches your attention. And while Little and I are not always of the same opinion he is right in one thing: in order to be able to develop spiritually in modern society it is good to have a secure basis (school, work etc.)...

 

take your time...

 

Harry

[Neijia]

I would suggest practicing the Wuji standing posture for increasing periods of time to start. It will teach you to let go of your fast twitch muscles, and develop sensitivity to your own body and energy. I think staking posture meditation, to begin, is by far more valuable than sitting - sitting should come later, IMhumbleO.

 

Also regarding books, or systems, or whatever... They're better left as reference material. I think a lot of us have seen the very real and very sad merits of incorrect practice and maladjusted cultivation techniques. For which reason teachers are invaluable, though I've had a lot of people have told that I'm wrong about that. As teachers go, I really lucked out in terms of proximity, financials etc. I realize that not everyone is as fortunate.

 

Where abouts are you located?

[Sahaj Nath]

I would suggest practicing the Wuji standing posture for increasing periods of time to start. It will teach you to let go of your fast twitch muscles, and develop sensitivity to your own body and energy. I think staking posture meditation, to begin, is by far more valuable than sitting - sitting should come later, IMhumbleO.

 

Also regarding books, or systems, or whatever... They're better left as reference material. I think a lot of us have seen the very real and very sad merits of incorrect practice and maladjusted cultivation techniques. For which reason teachers are invaluable, though I've had a lot of people have told that I'm wrong about that. As teachers go, I really lucked out in terms of proximity, financials etc. I realize that not everyone is as fortunate.

 

Where abouts are you located?

 

good suggestion with the wuji posture.

 

as simple as the posture is, however, it's very easy to get it wrong.

 

mantis, if you don't know the basic mechanics of standing posture, and if you don't have a teacher nearby, i would suggest a video. it's the best video i've seen in covering the foundation of moving practice (which most often begins with wuji).

 

tai chi connections, by ymaa.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Connections-...4260&sr=8-1

 

 

this video changed my teaching approach. i'm sure it will serve you well. between this video and the last book i suggested, The Healing Promise of Qi, you'd be building an awesome foundation. better than many experienced practitioners.

 

 

you're on the right track with going deep on a small number of exercises. and if you're getting good results from the seated practice, don't give it up.

Edited July 30, 2007 by Hundun

[mantis]

i live in miami florida

[Sahaj Nath]

i live in miami florida

 

 

 

 

there is a shaolin wanham instructor in gainsville, florida. his name is anthony korahais.

 

http://flowingzen.com/

 

 

 

he is a disciple of wong kiew kit (the guy who split clouds that i talked about in the other thread). he's very knowledgeable, very real, very no-nonsense in his approach to qigong and martial arts.

 

i don't know how far miami is from gainsville, but perhaps at some point (even in a year or so) you can go there.

 

however far gainsville is, it's an achievable goal to set.

[mantis]

i appreciate the link and i believe i have seen this website before. the only problem being i just checked on mapquest for directions and it's 5 hours and 30 minutes away.

[Smile]

Keith (Trunk) wrote well on his site about the dangers of HT Iron Shirt, etc... a lot of useful info:

Alchemical Taoism - Iron Shirt