Monkey Mind ? Anyone else?

[GrandmasterP]

Anyone else get this?

'Monkey Mind' here, no matter how mindful I strive to be when cultivating those old thoughts just pile up.

Seems like, sometimes; there are thoughts and memories just waiting for when I start cultivating so that they can pop up.

What I've learnt is to just let them be , observe them be aware of them non- judgementally and return to my cultivating.

That is a constant.

There's never one cultivation without attendant 'monkey mind' thoughts for me.

How about you?

[Starjumper]

Seems like, sometimes; there are thoughts and memories just waiting for when I start cultivating so that they can pop up.

 

How about you?

 

It happens to me, and I think it's unavoidable for 'civilized' people.

 

I think what happens is that when we attempt to do "no thinking", when we try to turn off the little choo cho train of thoughs and have some success with current issued then all the other, older, less important thoughts and memmories, from our entire lives, are waiting in line will come to the forefront.

 

I think this simply has to happen, you have to observe everything that results from past karmas (actions or thoughts) accept term, and then try to let them go. If not then they will still be there waiting for later

 

This includes all insulting and embarrasing moments we have had. If a person reviews all past wrongs they have done to others, (including animals) and feels genuine remorse for those wrongs then they can heal their karmal (an unethical person will not feel remorse). If a person reviews all embarrasing events in their lives and forgives themselves then they can heal their karma (be at peace).

 

This is the like the mythical warrior entering the dark cave of fear, conquering their enemy (their own dark side) and come out of the cave a whole person, enlihgtened. It takes guts to do that and not so many people have so many guts.

 

Once all these things are accomplished then monkey mind will not pop up so much..

 

That is why that, although there are some early benefits to meditation, the real big benefits only come after years, decades, of quality meditation.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Starjumper

[z00se]

Yeah i have trouble with it too, but i find bringing more energy in makes it worse. If i sink into myself and concentrate on awareness, grounding or listening the thoughts go and i get in the moment pretty easy. It's qigong that makes it hard, especially if you're a thinker like me. It puts more energy into the thick cables i have built up to my brain. I think it depends on your job too. If i develop software it causes the monkey mind to rear it's head real easy. If i leave the PC alone for a couple of days it's much easier to have a clear head. 3 days of purposely trying not to think and i can do it well for most of the day.

 

I think using the internet etc is training the monkey mind to become stronger. If you want to have a clear mind, thats what you need to practice. No reading, looking 'generally' not specifically (like look at everything but not going from face to face or checking out hot girls or anything like that). Sitting watching tv or movies i think is good but you gotta watch the whole room too, not just get sucked into the screen. I remember going away for several 10 day retreats by myself and meditating pretty much all day and eating fruit eggs bread and canned food that didn't need preparing. I would get tremendous benefit every time. Then another time i did the same thing but bought a meditation book to read and try to learn some new techniques, and got bugger all out of it. Every time i had my 'reading time' prob an hour or so in the day it would stuff up my progress even though my head would be clear. I dunno go figure.

 

Perhaps in ancient times where there were hardly any books and people didn't go to school the monkey mind would be much easier to control. But considering everybody has spent 12 years minimum reading books and training their mind to be very active all day almost every day + uni if you went.... thats alot of not thinking you need to do to balance that out.

 

I feel thinking is good and fun, but it would be good to have a button to turn it on and off. But there is none that i can find, you either spend a few days going into no thinking, or start thinking again. I am yet to learn how i can be in deep thought then stop it at a whim.

[z00se]

Oh yeah and also stay away from bananas, monkeys love those

Edited March 27, 2014 by z00se

[Yuen Biao]

I think we all suffer from this predicament.

 

The reasons are that we complicate our lives so much on pointless things and indeed there are too many distractions; to be dedicated and strict with oneself is the only way to proceed.

 

Not easy though but best of luck to you and others who have posted or read this thread.

[Boy]

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Boy

[Starjumper]

Meditation doesn’t suit everyone. I don’t know what ”cultivation” is. If a method doesn’t work for you, you have chosen the wrong method, or the time isn’t right.

 

As far as I know all the cultivation techniques in Taoism are part and parcel of meditation. Sitting, moving, standing, reclining, and some visualizations are all types of meditation, and complete systems use all of them.

 

How do you cultivate in your system if you don't meditate?

Edited March 27, 2014 by Starjumper

[Boy]

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Boy

[zanshin]

It helps me to get it out of my mind and written down, a little time to be compulsive and set schedules, write things down and be organized helps with keeping my mind relaxed after it is done.

[soaring crane]

Everybody's got something to hide, 'cept for me and my monkey!

 

When I'm showing a group something new, I tell tell them, '"Mitmach Verbot!" That means I'm forbidding them from trying the movement until I say it's time for them to try. I do the movement and it's their task to silently and actively observe. I tell them to look at more than just my hands; they have to look at the legs, the torso, shoulders, the breathing (I ask them when they think I'm inhaling, exhaling ... ), they have to sit on their horse and just watch.

 

But of course there's always someone who absolutely can not do it; they have to move, they can't only observe. In fact, every single person has to put a lot of effort into it. It's an advanced exercise in itself (that's why I do it so strictly) that helps tether the monkey.

 

For my own part, I've stopped worrying about it. When I'm practicing on my own, my thoughts wander like everyone else's, sometimes they go deep, deep, inside, which is of course where they belong, and sometimes they're back in high school, 1981, arguing with this annoying English teacher who accused me of plagiarizing a paper I wrote on Beowulf because the writing style wasn't the same as other papers I had written but I had intentionally tried be creative and he just refused to accept that and gave me a D, even though it was an excellent, flawless paper, and the bad note affected my point total and lowered my grade for the year and I'm convinced that that was the start of a downward spiral in my attitude toward school in general and the reason I said fuck college and joined the Army instead and ended up getting stationed in Germany which I hated at first but got used to it after a while and even married my German girlfriend and after living in New York for ten years, we moved to Germany in 1995 .... shit.

 

Inhale

 

Exhale

 

The trick isn't in controlling the thoughts. And it isn't in suppressing the reactions to the thoughts. The trick is in remaining non-judgemental. The real monkey, the badass monkey, is the one who tells you that you've failed. He's a grinning liar.

[Rara]

Anyone else get this?

'Monkey Mind' here, no matter how mindful I strive to be when cultivating those old thoughts just pile up.

Seems like, sometimes; there are thoughts and memories just waiting for when I start cultivating so that they can pop up.

What I've learnt is to just let them be , observe them be aware of them non- judgementally and return to my cultivating.

That is a constant.

There's never one cultivation without attendant 'monkey mind' thoughts for me.

How about you?

There's no escaping them. Without them, we wouldn't be us.

 

Quite right though, you are separate from them so don't be concerned about them. Don't give them the time of day.

 

I believe this to be the definition of self-mastery.

 

Mindfulness and concentration on anything will push thoughts into the background.

 

I.E if I perform on stage, I certainly don't get distracted by what my thoughts might be saying about that dude that yelled at me the other day for no reason. I'm too busy belting words into a microphone.

[ChiDragon]

Try to find something to focus on like the dan tian. That will put the money mind at ease. Please don't forget to do the UMB(the Ultimate Method of Breathing).

Edited March 27, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rara]

Yeah i have trouble with it too, but i find bringing more energy in makes it worse. If i sink into myself and concentrate on awareness, grounding or listening the thoughts go and i get in the moment pretty easy. It's qigong that makes it hard, especially if you're a thinker like me. It puts more energy into the thick cables i have built up to my brain. I think it depends on your job too. If i develop software it causes the monkey mind to rear it's head real easy. If i leave the PC alone for a couple of days it's much easier to have a clear head. 3 days of purposely trying not to think and i can do it well for most of the day.

 

I think using the internet etc is training the monkey mind to become stronger. If you want to have a clear mind, thats what you need to practice. No reading, looking 'generally' not specifically (like look at everything but not going from face to face or checking out hot girls or anything like that). Sitting watching tv or movies i think is good but you gotta watch the whole room too, not just get sucked into the screen. I remember going away for several 10 day retreats by myself and meditating pretty much all day and eating fruit eggs bread and canned food that didn't need preparing. I would get tremendous benefit every time. Then another time i did the same thing but bought a meditation book to read and try to learn some new techniques, and got bugger all out of it. Every time i had my 'reading time' prob an hour or so in the day it would stuff up my progress even though my head would be clear. I dunno go figure.

 

Perhaps in ancient times where there were hardly any books and people didn't go to school the monkey mind would be much easier to control. But considering everybody has spent 12 years minimum reading books and training their mind to be very active all day almost every day + uni if you went.... thats alot of not thinking you need to do to balance that out.

 

I feel thinking is good and fun, but it would be good to have a button to turn it on and off. But there is none that i can find, you either spend a few days going into no thinking, or start thinking again. I am yet to learn how i can be in deep thought then stop it at a whim.

I see what you're saying and mostly agree...

 

Monkeys don't read books or use the internet though...

 

But in fact, I'm treating "monkey mind" as a metaphor or a figure of speech. My limited knowledge of evolution leads me to think that primates still had such issues but due to other distractions.

 

An example being a female mate?

[Rara]

Everybody's got something to hide, 'cept for me and my monkey!

 

When I'm showing a group something new, I tell tell them, '"Mitmach Verbot!" That means I'm forbidding them from trying the movement until I say it's time for them to try. I do the movement and it's their task to silently and actively observe. I tell them to look at more than just my hands; they have to look at the legs, the torso, shoulders, the breathing (I ask them when they think I'm inhaling, exhaling ... ), they have to sit on their horse and just watch.

 

But of course there's always someone who absolutely can not do it; they have to move, they can't only observe. In fact, every single person has to put a lot of effort into it. It's an advanced exercise in itself (that's why I do it so strictly) that helps tether the monkey.

 

For my own part, I've stopped worrying about it. When I'm practicing on my own, my thoughts wander like everyone else's, sometimes they go deep, deep, inside, which is of course where they belong, and sometimes they're back in high school, 1981, arguing with this annoying English teacher who accused me of plagiarizing a paper I wrote on Beowulf because the writing style wasn't the same as other papers I had written but I had intentionally tried be creative and he just refused to accept that and gave me a D, even though it was an excellent, flawless paper, and the bad note affected my point total and lowered my grade for the year and I'm convinced that that was the start of a downward spiral in my attitude toward school in general and the reason I said fuck college and joined the Army instead and ended up getting stationed in Germany which I hated at first but got used to it after a while and even married my German girlfriend and after living in New York for ten years, we moved to Germany in 1995 .... shit.

 

Inhale

 

Exhale

 

The trick isn't in controlling the thoughts. And it isn't in suppressing the reactions to the thoughts. The trick is in remaining non-judgemental. The real monkey, the badass monkey, is the one who tells you that you've failed. He's a grinning liar.

In regard to those that just can't sit still...

 

"ADHD" is now considered a disability. *slaps own head* As some of us move a step forward, others take two steps back.

[GrandmasterP]

Thank you so much for those outstanding replies.

I have 'liked' every one.

It is good to know that it isn't just me.

How I cultivate is 8 Strands QiGong standing form every morning when I get up plus Mindfulness breathing which is a modified zazen done sitting in a chair or on a cushion.

I do the mindfulness breathing during the day for short periods ( mindful pauses) and aim to get half an hour minimum in at night before I go to bed.

Totally agree that retreats away from daily distractions especially computers are excellent and I have managed a four day 'away' retreat every year for the last few years and love it.

That's all I can manage away though due to work and home commitments.

Guess I'll just plod on but plod on reassured by all your excellent and supportive comments.

Thanks again, TTB is a super helpful forum with some super helpful people.

Edited March 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Rara]

Thank you so much for those outstanding replies.

I have 'liked' every one.

It is good to know that it isn't just me.

How I cultivate is 8 Strands QiGong standing form every morning when I get up plus Mindfulness breathing which is a modified zazen done sitting in a chair or on a cushion.

I do the mindfulness breathing during the day for short periods ( mindful pauses) and aim to get half an hour minimum in at night before I go to bed.

Totally agree that retreats away from daily distractions especially computers are excellent and I have managed a four day 'away' retreat every year for the last few years and love it.

That's all I can manage away though due to work and home commitments.

Guess I'll just plod on but plod on reassured by all your excellent and supportive comments.

Thanks again, TTB is a super helpful forum with some super helpful people.

That's all very good. I found trying to practice mindfulness 24/7 is worthwhile, not JUST in formal practice. Then it really benefits all aspects of life.

 

When I'm tired, I'm less mindful.

 

Or if I get excited about something. Often music. I often find myself bursting into song and playing air guitar randomly throughout the day when my brain switches off.

 

Does anyone else get this? Lol

[GrandmasterP]

I've been tempted to do 'air guitar' at work before now.

Not in the sort of job where air guitar is encouraged though.

Maybe on my last day prior to retirement.

Edited March 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[C T]

You seem like a nice bloke, GMP. Do you find it easy to make friends? Hows your attitude towards troublemakers, loudmouths, scaremongers, bullies, and chauvinists? Do you have any biases? Do you stick by your principles at all costs? All these considerations have a bearing on how the monkey mind works to assert their dominance over you.

 

This monkey mind feeds off habits and attitudes. If you see them thriving on bananas, dont feed them more bananas. If you do, the gratification will only be temporary, during which time you will enjoy a little respite from their wild ways, but after they have had their rest, they will bunch up again to ask you for more! What worked for me in the past was working with mantras. Whenever i sense unruliness and much aggro, either i listen to recordings, chant out loud or silently play mantras in my mind, coupling this with visualizations of mandalas, deities and also, where convenience permits, i do prostrations. This has become a habit, nowadays, my monkey mind dont really bother me cos its not been getting bananas when it wants, only when i decide, should i decide, i may give them a little airing once in a while, instead of them making the decision when to let me have little breaks, so yeah, im no longer at their mercy now.

 

Taming this monkey mind is quite similar to training pups. Its hard work, pretty frustrating most days, but we do it cos the end result is worth it, and... those who persist despite the frustrations and endless hair-pulling get to cultivate patience, tolerance and love, worthy outcomes all. Keep the faith, and don't lose sight of the end goal.

 

[silent thunder]

I get lumps of experience, particularly in practice that are free of thought.

Thoughts come though, always flowing again at some point.

[Starjumper]

My mistake, Starjumper. I used the word carelessly to mean the run-of-the-mill "sitting in silence" kind. It was part of a catalogue I had written down, but then chose to remove. I'm not entirely sure of your definition of meditation, so I'm not sure my answer will cover your question, but in vedanta we often speak of (and do!) karma yoga, and it is not really meditation, but the goal, for all intents and purposes, is the same. That would be one example. Also, I really don't know what "cultivating" is.

 

Well cultivating seems to be kind of a new age (rhymes with sewage) Taoist word that seems tohave degenerated to the point that it's kind of a catch all for most any kind of attempt at self improvement using Eastern methods, misguided or not. To me, since emotional self improvement only comes through meditation, I deem that to be cultivation, in all it's forms.

 

So tai chi and chi kung and nei kung are moving meditations. (Things that require intense body focus should easily shut off the monkey mind). There are standing meditations which are unlike most yoga postures but i would say that yoga postures are a type of standing meditation. Assuming the practitioner is focussing on their body and not their grocery shopping list.

 

THEN I found out that Taoist philosophy buffs, who focus on what Laotze (sounds like lousy, so I call them Lousyists) wrote in the TTC and 'try' to be good.boys and girls, and they also call that cultivation too.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Starjumper

[z00se]

Everybody's got something to hide, 'cept for me and my monkey!

 

When I'm showing a group something new, I tell tell them, '"Mitmach Verbot!" That means I'm forbidding them from trying the movement until I say it's time for them to try. I do the movement and it's their task to silently and actively observe. I tell them to look at more than just my hands; they have to look at the legs, the torso, shoulders, the breathing (I ask them when they think I'm inhaling, exhaling ... ), they have to sit on their horse and just watch.

 

But of course there's always someone who absolutely can not do it; they have to move, they can't only observe. In fact, every single person has to put a lot of effort into it. It's an advanced exercise in itself (that's why I do it so strictly) that helps tether the monkey.

 

For my own part, I've stopped worrying about it. When I'm practicing on my own, my thoughts wander like everyone else's, sometimes they go deep, deep, inside, which is of course where they belong, and sometimes they're back in high school, 1981, arguing with this annoying English teacher who accused me of plagiarizing a paper I wrote on Beowulf because the writing style wasn't the same as other papers I had written but I had intentionally tried be creative and he just refused to accept that and gave me a D, even though it was an excellent, flawless paper, and the bad note affected my point total and lowered my grade for the year and I'm convinced that that was the start of a downward spiral in my attitude toward school in general and the reason I said fuck college and joined the Army instead and ended up getting stationed in Germany which I hated at first but got used to it after a while and even married my German girlfriend and after living in New York for ten years, we moved to Germany in 1995 .... shit.

 

Inhale

 

Exhale

 

The trick isn't in controlling the thoughts. And it isn't in suppressing the reactions to the thoughts. The trick is in remaining non-judgemental. The real monkey, the badass monkey, is the one who tells you that you've failed. He's a grinning liar.

 

I think the inner journey is different for everyone, of course because we are all different. For me, if my meditation was like this i wouldn't do it. It's like a front row seat and a hardcore test to remain non-judgemental to the things that you most likely want to judge. I wouldn't consider that fun, a constant and persistant test - i wouldn't like it. I use meditation to change things and my perceptions to what i do like. It's a bit like sitting infront of the TV watching the show (which is my life) but being able to flick through the channels to find something i like. Infact i can make something up but if i make up too many things it obviously leaves me ungrounded.

 

I use meditation as a tool to either change my reality by using my energy (at my highest levels) or by not caring and letting everything pass me by (at my lowest levels). High or low levels both have merit, they both allow me to tailor my experience more so to a way i enjoy, a bit like cooking dinner. Of course the world goes on, just like if you have chicken for dinner you have chicken, or if you have fish you have fish, but by adding salt, pepper, vinigar or even tomato sauce if you like, you can adjust your experience to one that you enjoy. After all i feel 90% of your meditation is felt by you, and number 1 is the main concern, so tailoring life to suit yourself seems like the main benefit, and that is why i meditate.

[z00se]

I get lumps of experience, particularly in practice that are free of thought.

Thoughts come though, always flowing again at some point.

 

Yeah, i think thoughts are a way to concrete your direct experiences. You can go 'wow, this and this happened at that moment' and then you can change your thought patterns in a way that accomodate this so that you may grow. The thought process allows you to communicate your experiences and pass them on as teachings or even just a point of view. Being lost in the moment is great but sometimes it's just not enough. You want to share these experiences with others through words, you want to share them with yourself in a way that is more solid than just a passing moment. Some things are worth attaching too.

[z00se]

Well cultivating seems to be kind of a new age (rhymes with sewage) Taoist word that seems tohave degenerated to the point that it's kind of a catch all for most any kind of attempt at self improvement using Eastern methods, misguided or not. To me, since emotional self improvement only comes through meditation, I deem that to be cultivation, in all it's forms.

 

So tai chi and chi kung and nei kung are moving meditations. (Things that require intense body focus should easily shut off the monkey mind). There are standing meditations which are unlike most yoga postures but i would say that yoga postures are a type of standing meditation. Assuming the practitioner is focussing on their body and not their grocery shopping list.

 

THEN I found out that Taoist philosophy buffs, who focus on what Laotze (sounds like lousy, so I call them Lousyists) wrote in the TTC and 'try' to be good.boys and girls, and they also call that cultivation too.

 

I see cultivation as not like you say, but more like farming. Cultivating a vege patch so to speak. Of course it is not natural to make a farm, but you tailor the water levels, the earth nutrients, ph, and plant in a good sunny spot and you get good fruit. I think qigong is good for health, it allows you to cultivate your health like farming allows you to grow more than you need. You can throw it away and it can go to waste, infact you need to or you can have too much. But in times when you are sick, this is comparable to a drought or floods, and by changing the landscape by building drainoffs, dams or digging wells you can get the perfect balance and a high yeild crop. But this can't last forever, the same as environmental engineering, the engineered spot enjoys exceptional health while down stream somewhere another area ends up being bone dry.

 

To live with awareness is to live with nature, taking the ups and the downs and enjoying it all (spiritual also). However in the down times everybody looks to the farmer and sees how much food he has stockpiled and how much money he gets from selling it to everybody. Meanwhile everybody forgets about all the full moons where they danced under the sun toasting mashmellows over the campfire, while the farmer was sitting in his tractor ploughing the meadows and planting his seeds.

[z00se]

Further... if the farmer is not greedy and doesn't let his stockpile of tomatoes rot and shares them with everybody, the others may invite him to their full moon parties and it may indeed be at a time when the farm fails, indeed as god or the tao may and can whim it. The rough can be smoothed out by the party goers without a grain of rice in their cupboard. We are all one, and can help each other in times of need, or even not in extreme times of need. Friends and love are the balancing point where we can all become one, enjoy each other and share.

[zanshin]

It is strange how pain can keep you in the moment and grounded in the body for meditation like horse stance or full lotus, but for distance running it can be adaptive to space out and forget the body- whoops there went 2 miles.