Random thought about Dao that can not be spoken

[Marblehead]

 

I see it more like a painting. A painting without a frame. A mixed-medium painting, painting itself, on a 4-dimensional canvas.

Or perhaps an unfinished painting?

[soaring crane]

Or perhaps an unfinished painting?

 

Or perhaps an unstarted painting, Mr. Head. Or is it Mr. Marble?

[Mark Saltveit]

And yet, here you all are, giving in to the urge to post 'something' in a thread that ostensibly should be about no thing :-)

 

And here I am, feeling superior because I'm not posting anything. Oh, wait.....

[GrandmasterP]

Or perhaps an unstarted painting, Mr. Head. Or is it Mr. Marble?

 

Or maybe a painting neither begun nor not begun.

That sort of painting.

 

( Wanna buy one?)

 

 

:-)

[yagr]

If the Dao cannot be spoken, then, ipso facto, that which cannot be spoken must be Dao.

 

The quoting function is not working for me but this is from the OP.

 

I respectfully question this. I actually think that you may be correct from a different angle but the assertion itself seems faulty. i.e. If one is not two, then that which is not two must be one.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, in my book that is called circular logic. (Faulty in most cases.)

[Fazeng]

If the Dao can not be spoken, then, ipso facto, that which can not be spoken must be Dao.

 

 

It's just a mistranslation. IMO.

See James Legge's translation of Dao De Jing.

[soaring crane]

See James Legge's translation of Dao De Jing.

 

why?

[Fazeng]

 

why?

I think it's more correct translation.

 

道可道，非常道

"The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao."

[GrandmasterP]

"If the Dao can not be spoken, then, ipso facto, that which can not be spoken must be Dao."

 

Possibly.

Then again, possibly not.

How could one ever be sure?

Edited July 4, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I have no problem with repeating myself.

 

The manifest realm of Tao can be spoken of. What we cannot speak about is "first cause" and Mystery (potential). Potential remains a mystery until it manifests itself.

[Fazeng]

One does not simply understand Taoist Scriptures.

[GrandmasterP]

"Krphxyzwlps"

 

Is what they are 'saying'.

I can't make the image any larger.

Edited July 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[dawei]

I think it's more correct translation.

 

道可道，非常道

"The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao."

 

It all depends on the comma.... which is a later introduction and not in the original...

 

and let's not forget the original was not Chang, but Heng:

 

Other possibilities:

 

道, 可道, 非恒道

 

道可, 道非, 恒道

[nestentrie]

One does not simply understand Taoist Scriptures.

 

The very ideas you think are all an infinite regress leading back to the Tao. Not with 10,000 lao tzu's could you do this.

[soaring crane]

 

"The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao."

 

the OP was just a poetic image that had occurred to me while meditating outside on a sunny day. I had to go back now to see what I'd written. My conclusion was this:

 

because I can't grasp and can't express: Dao.

[Marblehead]

because I can't grasp and can't express: Dao.

Yes, Lao Tzu told us this. Looked for, it cannot be seen, reached for, it cannot be touched, etc.

 

But really, even those things that can be grasped and those that can be expressed are Tao as well.

[Fazeng]

 

It all depends on the comma.... which is a later introduction and not in the original...

Yes, better to remove commas.

[dawei]

the OP was just a poetic image that had occurred to me while meditating outside on a sunny day. I had to go back now to see what I'd written. My conclusion was this:

 

because I can't grasp and can't express: Dao.

 

It is kind of a circular problem... by using the word "Dao" you have used language to articulate something... by definition, you can grasp and express that which is within the language barrier...

 

You cannot grasp and express that which is outside of language... but then, there is no word for it... that is why MANY texts said, "I Do not know what to call it..."

 

But I like what Flowing Hands said here:

 

if we accept that the Dao is almost 'inert' in its creativity and that it is just the underlining principle to what we have and see materially, we can then say that all things arise from principality and find their interwoven connections with each other as they evolve. Now anything beyond the 'almost inertness' of the Dao is made by humans in description. So we cannot say, hear or know the Dao, we can only feel its principality in our hearts, the rest is created by us.

. . .

 

So we cannot describe something that is inert in its influence as having any particular character or attribute. But we can see the manifestations of that influence.

 

Now I use the word 'inert' to describe the Dao because its probably the only one I can think of, of how to describe it, for it is ALMOST impossible to feel that subtle and all encompassing influence.

[soaring crane]

It is kind of a circular problem... by using the word "Dao" you have used language to articulate something... by definition, you can grasp and express that which is within the language barrier...

 

That's why I used imagery in the OP. The other stuff is superfluous.

[Stosh]

Are these not logical extensions of the commonly held view of the phrase?....

 

What a person may understand about a thing , is not the thing itself , my understanding of rain, isnt rain itself,, so the Dao is independent of what I think about it, its not "all in my head".

 

If the Dao is forever unknowable , (for what it is,) then one cant know what it is to be Dao itself by meditating.

 

(The interp I go by isnt very much like the ones being discussed here though)

Edited July 7, 2014 by Stosh

[soaring crane]

 

(The interp I go by isnt very much like the ones being discussed here though)

 

do tell, do tell

 

I had only posted this because I wanted to try to capture an image that occured to me, and it felt good. I'm into intellectualizing the nature of the universe. I like poetry a lot more.

[Stosh]

do tell, do tell

 

I had only posted this because I wanted to try to capture an image that occured to me, and it felt good. I'm into intellectualizing the nature of the universe. I like poetry a lot more.

Well the interp I got from Stanford dept of philosophy ran along the lines of ,

'the dao that can dao is not the eternal dao'

They may have adjusted it in the intervening time but , I thats how I was introduced to the idea and it has held me in clear stead since then.

using my own rough english overlay- Im not trying for a linguistic proof here

the paradigm which can guide is not specific enough to be used as a roadmap to virtue

 

The reason to say this is multifold , but , particularly , as regards this topic,,

One cant be precise about the advice one might want to give,,, because people and circumstances vary

One can talk of the considerations to take into account , and one may give advice both contrary and consistent with the paradigms of the day , but it will always come down to the individual in a given circumstance , how is it YOU wish to live, what YOUR nature is, and where is it YOU find yourself in relation to the goals YOU present yourself .

I just cant rightly tell you what to do for a living ,or who to marry, or delineate all which might be considered good or bad to do.

 

Ill re-post some poetry at a later date if you like in my ppf , no one seemed interested in it , and to be honest , I havent reevaluated it in a long long time to see if I still am in accord with it.

[soaring crane]

^^ I like that

 

Post something poetic here. Something that creates a representative image on the reader's inner picture screen.

 

why do you write in tiny text so often, btw?

Edited July 8, 2014 by soaring crane

[Stosh]

^^ I like that

 

Post something poetic here. Something that creates a representative image on the reader's inner picture screen.

 

why do you write in tiny text so often, btw?

The tiny letters usually constitutes an 'aside' comment being an inverse TO USE ALL CAPS which may look like yelling.

Ill have to look for something poetic that relates to this topic and will pop it in later if the thread hasnt picked up steam

(not that my poem will refill its momentum)