What is Taoism? (Seriously)

[doc benway]

Okay, I know this sounds trollish, but I really want to get people's experiences.

My fundamental understanding, beyond anything, is that Taoism is about harmony with nature - with the actual natural world, and with our inner nature as beings, and discovering how deep that goes.

 

Much as there are many sects and schools of Buddhism, and how saying you are a "Buddhist" isn't really saying much (Zen? Vajrayana? Hinayana?) does the label "Taoist" mean anything? Would a true Taoist even think in those terms?

 

I'm working on a book about taoism right now, and I'd really value some feedback on this. What does it mean to follow Taoism in the modern world? Especially in regards to technology and engaging with the modern world, pop culture, etc on its own terms.

 

*braces for some hazing*

 

No need for any hazing. If you are genuinely interested in hearing what others have to say, that is a rare gift.

Most of us listen simply because we must until the opportunity presents itself for us to reply.

 

The label Buddhist tends to point to those following the way of the Buddha in terms of the four noble truths and dependent origination. Lots of variety beyond that but that seems fairly fundamental.

 

The label Daoist, IMO, points to those who follows the path of wu wei and the three treasures. My Daoist teacher, who is from Taiwan, has a different perspective. In his opinion, a Daoist is someone who actively practices the methods of Daoist cultivation. He does not consider someone to be a Daoist simply because they perform rituals, read Daoist texts, and attempt to understand or follow the associated philosophy. Not saying I agree or disagree but I thought I'd share this with you for your research.

[PLB]

The separation of energies; that there are these different shapes to be experienced; that is what Taoism is for me now.

If I get any better at that, Taoism will change to the next thing I can't do yet.

[Rara]

So what would you say to R. Hubbard, and his followers? Would you say tell them 'everything's fine', and keep doing what makes them feel happy (even though they've been brainwashed to think so). What about the women of saudi arabia? Tell them everything's fine, and to have a nice day walking back home in black? Because then, you are far less of a saint than you think you are. An absence of tolerance doesn't equal intolerance.

 

Intolerance is never the answer in my opinion. But the ridiculous levels of 'tolerance' on this forum shows with the amount of Jesus quotes sacrileging the place.

 

And with your talk about tolerance, it doesn't sound like your very tolerant of taoists with another point of view, by that irrelevant comment you made, bashing tao in nature. I'll check that place out.

No, Scientology, Islam and Christianity are just those...not Taoism.

 

I agree that Jesus etc doesn't reflect Taoism, but all that is within the Tao...

 

The Tao is "limitless". Talking about/understanding other ways is not "sacrilege".

 

And followers of other faiths can do whatever they please. It's a free world...but Taoism is here for those who want it.

 

As for chi in nature, I stumbled upon them (or him?) late. I can't comment other than from the outset, the guy seemed pretty intense and extreme. Didn't feel right to me...but hey, if it works for you, all the best.

 

EDIT: I would like to add that I know what you mean re women in the Middle East...where is the choice there? Some do not have the ability to escape practices that are forced on them. I wish I had all the answers, but I don't. All I know is that Taoism teaches the kind ways in the nature of all and that's why people learn and follow...to return to that nature.

 

I would never push my Taoist ways of kindness on anyone...but I am the first to speak up when I see a political injustice.

 

There is the Tao, and within it, there is a weird game of life that we have to play and do our best with.

Edited May 14, 2014 by Rara

[doc benway]

 

Intolerance is never the answer in my opinion.

 

 

Really?

[Stosh]

Ironic , isnt it

[manitou]

Strangely, some of us happened upon Daoism when they were on another path.

 

Daoism, to me, is the hub of the wheel. Sticking with any viable path over a period of time will develop the necessary desire to become better people, to learn to love our brother as ourselves (please excuse the Jesus quote, but those words reside in the Dao as well), and to be as fluid with nature as we can be. Nature provides the lessons and the answers - those who can stand back and watch the dynamics of nature, thereby extrapolating our own answers to life.

 

We are the microcosm for the macrocosm. As someone said earlier, 'Know Thyself'. By truly knowing the positives and negatives of our own personality (and with an earnest attempt to rectify the negative) we can know the cosmos. We know all others, because we come to the vivid realization that we are all One - we are all the Same Creature, somehow.

 

The Dao is the place where nothing can hurt you. it is the ability to elevate your vision to rise above the apparent workings of life, and yet to realize that the truth lies in the dynamic, not the details. We who love the Dao know that it is a constant place of refuge, and a constant place of inspiration. We become One with it; the more fully we are able to embrace the dynamic and the understanding, the more synchronistic and like-clockwork our lives become.

 

To live in the Dao is to realize that all things are going to go as they are going to go; row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. It seems like backwards, being in the Dao. The further Inside we travel, the more we can see the Outside. There really is nothing to 'do'. Know Thyself, and all else will be Known.

 

And this is the trick. How to best do that? How to know ourselves with the darned ego in the way?

 

All paths lead to the Dao, IMO. Shamanism, mystic christianity, metaphysic - these are in my own experience. the Dao is merely the place of stillness, or the 'peace that passeth understanding', the heart at peace, the place where No Thing Is and yet within it is contained the template for All.

 

How silly to try to encircle it with words.

[3bob]

Many moons ago I asked this question, and the respondent, a Dzogchen monk, answered somewhat cryptically,

"Tao is not unlike you."

 

Years later, I understand taoism as a quest for that real you which is not unlike tao.

 

Anyone who went deep in the pursuit of "know thyself" must of necessity discover that what he or she routinely thinks of as "me" is a construct, a composite made up of assorted ill-fitting bricks of psychological, physical, mental, spiritual conditioning executed by parent and teacher, doctor and preacher, politician and salesman, cop and judge, assorted dispensaries of carrots and sticks, etc. etc.. The spiritually timid label the bricks of this construct something impersonal, abstract -- "fear," "greed," "ignorance," etc.. The spiritually courageous, however, get to the bottom of it and come up with the actual doers of the brainwashing, individuals and groups, not abstractions.

 

You have no fear until you are scared and intimidated (or manipulated and cajoled) into obedience, you have no greed until you are seduced into believing what you want should far exceed what you need in order for you to be adequate in society, you have no ignorance until your feelings are denied and disallowed, and so on. Identifying who did what toward producing this unreal fake "me" is step one. Step two is getting rid of all the fake "me" that is not the real you.

 

What remains -- that's tao. And what guides you on this quest, all the tools -- philosophical, religious, empirical, physical, lifestyle-related, state-of-mind related, behavioral, etc. etc. -- the toolbox of wonders to fill with qi and yin-yang, Laozi and Fuxi, I Ching and feng shui, taiji and qigong, alchemy and magic, deities and immortals, compassion and harmony, above all nature and her ways -- her true ways, on which tao patterns itself --

 

that's taoism.

 

My take is different being that the T.T.C. more or less says The Tao "did" The One, The Two, The Three, and the Ten thousand, thus all cause/blame so to speak for such is on or of the Tao; - and since (if you will) there is no separate, independent root that is counter to yet also equal to the Tao as Source then its further permutations beyond those mentioned above are also tied to the cause/blame for the "fake" and "unreal" or the apparent non-Tao. (with such considered as not being an easy down to brass tacks type of realization to have)

Edited May 18, 2014 by 3bob

[manitou]

My take is different being that the T.T.C. more or less says The Tao "did" The One, The Two, The Three, and the Ten thousand, thus all cause/blame so to speak for such is on or of the Tao; - and since (if you will) there is no separate, independent root that is counter to yet also equal to the Tao as Source then its further permutations beyond those mentioned above are also tied to the cause/blame for the "fake" and "unreal" or the apparent non-Tao. (with such considered as not being an easy down to brass tacks type of realization to have)

 

i think this is why the sage makes no judgments. The 'fake' and 'unreal' are part of it all too. Because it isn't balanced at this moment, in front of us, doesn't mean it isn't balanced in another way, unseen.

 

I think it's important to realize that time is an illusion, that it's all happening here and now. The Dao 'did' the 1, 2, 3, and 10,000 - but it continues to do so. And will continue doing so. it's never stopped, it's not in the past.

[silent thunder]

Water flowing downhill.

High pressure settling with low pressure.

A drawn bow settling in balance.

Waves cresting into flat sands.

Wind blown leaves.

Sun shining on my face and casting shade on my back.

[3bob]

Hi Manitou,

 

Well yes, the cycles of going "far" and "return" continue yet the manifest only does so in time(s) and space(s) which in that sense is not illusion but relative, while only the "eternal" or the Tao that can not be named stands "still" or forever right now and unchanging.

 

(edit: last sentence filled out somewhat)

Edited May 19, 2014 by 3bob

[manitou]

Yes, we are stuck with space and time. But i do enjoy looking at a situation without time interposed - as though hovering over it and seeing the necklace without the links of time - to see them all smooshed together so that their true form is seen. This can be done. I think that 'removing' time from the equation for purposes of seeing how the dynamics fit together can be done; like a puzzle, all at the Same Time. it's abstract and nearly impossible to put into words.

Edited May 19, 2014 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Well, I think this is the best you have ever expressed this concept of yours. You almost, but only almost, have me agreeing with you.

[manitou]

Well, I think this is the best you have ever expressed this concept of yours. You almost, but only almost, have me agreeing with you.

 

 

No way.

[3bob]

Yes, we are stuck with space and time. But i do enjoy looking at a situation without time interposed - as though hovering over it and seeing the necklace without the links of time - to see them all smooshed together so that their true form is seen. This can be done. I think that 'removing' time from the equation for purposes of seeing how the dynamics fit together can be done; like a puzzle, all at the Same Time. it's abstract and nearly impossible to put into words.

 

Well I'd say that "all at the same time" would be under the "One" since the One contains all time(s) and all space(s) all at once...which would be removing perception limited to variations of linear time and related linear situations... yet and further none can return to the Tao without full payment to the One which has a "mystery" connection to Tao. and I'd frankly add that I think very, very few of us (including myself) are ready to make such a payment as alluded to in chapter 43 of the T.T.C. via the saying of, "only Nothing can enter into no space".

[宁]

Taoism is a religion.

What is peculiar (but not unique) about this religion is it has many practical aspects, that you can borrow and use even if you are of a different faith. Because of its practicality people confuse it with a 'way of life', however in its very essence, Taoism is still a religion, many of its practical aspects (the higher up you go, the deeper you go into the religious aspects) need a firm belief in its mythology in order to work. Like yin and yang, taiji, five elements, the immortal saints.

There's no shame in admitting that.

[Marblehead]

... the saying of, "only Nothing can enter into no space".

That is very important to remember. (But we must think deep.)

[Marblehead]

Taoism is a religion.

What is peculiar (but not unique) about this religion is it has many practical aspects, that you can borrow and use even if you are of a different faith. Because of its practicality people confuse it with a 'way of life', however in its very essence, Taoism is still a religion, many of its practical aspects (the higher up you go, the deeper you go into the religious aspects) need a firm belief in its mythology in order to work. Like yin and yang, taiji, five elements, the immortal saints.

There's no shame in admitting that.

Okay. I admit that Taoism is also a religion. (You do know how hard it was for me to say that, don't you?)

 

And I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said.

 

The Tao is all encompassing.

 

(But no, I don't embrace all that I experience in the Manifest universe.)

[manitou]

Well I'd say that "all at the same time" would be under the "One" since the One contains all time(s) and all space(s) all at once...which would be removing perception limited to variations of linear time and related linear situations... yet and further none can return to the Tao without full payment to the One which has a "mystery" connection to Tao. and I'd frankly add that I think very, very few of us (including myself) are ready to make such a payment as alluded to in chapter 43 of the T.T.C. via the saying of, "only Nothing can enter into no space".

 

 

Bob, have you ever gotten to that place in meditation where your personality dissipates? Maybe this is what they refer to when they say 'only Nothing can enter into no space'. It is actually a terrifying moment - not blissful at all. You are truly ALONE out there in space. A feeling like no other.

 

The other option, I suppose, is dying.

[manitou]

Taoism is a religion.

What is peculiar (but not unique) about this religion is it has many practical aspects, that you can borrow and use even if you are of a different faith. Because of its practicality people confuse it with a 'way of life', however in its very essence, Taoism is still a religion, many of its practical aspects (the higher up you go, the deeper you go into the religious aspects) need a firm belief in its mythology in order to work. Like yin and yang, taiji, five elements, the immortal saints.

There's no shame in admitting that.

 

But it seems to me that all Religions fit within Daoism (not speaking here of religious Daoism, but philosophical). Of any construct of thought (religion) that I've ever seen, they all fit within the very vague construct of Daoism. they fit within Daoism, but Daoism doesn't fit within their boxes.

 

Many of us have found Daoism just by coming across the DDJ, as in my case. Beyond that, I'm not sure that it's absolutely necessary to 'believe' in the mythology to work - the whole field of metaphysics picks up the slack.

[Brian]

 

But it seems to me that all Religions fit within Daoism (not speaking here of religious Daoism, but philosophical). Of any construct of thought (religion) that I've ever seen, they all fit within the very vague construct of Daoism. they fit within Daoism, but Daoism doesn't fit within their boxes.

 

Many of us have found Daoism just by coming across the DDJ, as in my case. Beyond that, I'm not sure that it's absolutely necessary to 'believe' in the mythology to work - the whole field of metaphysics picks up the slack.

I think you are both right.

 

One of the greater challenges for a religion is the human desire to fill in the blanks (aka "making shit up").

 

Richard Feynman said "religion is a magic device for turning unanswerable questions into unquestionable answers."

[manitou]

I think Richard Feynman is right on.

[3bob]

Bob, have you ever gotten to that place in meditation where your personality dissipates? Maybe this is what they refer to when they say 'only Nothing can enter into no space'. It is actually a terrifying moment - not blissful at all. You are truly ALONE out there in space. A feeling like no other.

 

The other option, I suppose, is dying.

 

Yes, as in a visit. Btw, I might use the words disappears, dissolves or stays behind instead of dissipates. As for normal dying that is tied to living - for it is when death dies that we are free from karma induced cycles of death and birth and that is a bliss not constrained or dependent on either.

[宁]

But it seems to me that all Religions fit within Daoism (not speaking here of religious Daoism, but philosophical). Of any construct of thought (religion) that I've ever seen, they all fit within the very vague construct of Daoism. they fit within Daoism, but Daoism doesn't fit within their boxes.

 

Many of us have found Daoism just by coming across the DDJ, as in my case. Beyond that, I'm not sure that it's absolutely necessary to 'believe' in the mythology to work - the whole field of metaphysics picks up the slack.

 

 

What I've been noticing in China, in both Chinese Taoist and Indian Hindu communities, is that they always refer to their training as being part of their faith/national culture. Much has been interationalized, I agree. However when I proposed the Chinese Taoists to learn some Yoga, I got the same reaction as when I proposed the Hindu Yoga practitioners to learn some Taiji: polite smiles.

 

In the West we treat these practices as collectibles, I was so embarrased, I realized I was acting like a kid trying to exchange toys...

[manitou]

What I've been noticing in China, in both Chinese Taoist and Indian Hindu communities, is that they always refer to their training as being part of their faith/national culture. Much has been interationalized, I agree. However when I proposed the Chinese Taoists to learn some Yoga, I got the same reaction as when I proposed the Hindu Yoga practitioners to learn some Taiji: polite smiles.

 

In the West we treat these practices as collectibles, I was so embarrased, I realized I was acting like a kid trying to exchange toys...

 

 

And yet it is such a smorgasbord. It all goes to the same I Am. What is the benefit to a culture that refuses to look beyond its own borders?

 

Seems that it can be done both ways. One can become entrenched in one view and see it through to its conclusion; or one can triangulate all views and see it through to its conclusion as well. they will end up in the same place, if humility is factored into both.

[Marblehead]

I had two Witnesses visit this morning and I told them a little bit about Taoism. They appeared to enjoy hearing about it but I could tell they were anxious to leave.