Performed Aerobic Tu Na(吐吶) for Thirty Years

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Action of breath must be integrated with every action.

 

Everything stems from the breath.

 

There are many varieties of breathing suitable for different actions and activities.

...

[ChiDragon]

...

Action of breath must be integrated with every action.

 

Everything stems from the breath.

 

There are many varieties of breathing suitable for different actions and activities.

...

 

Yes, that is only when one has mastered the UMB.

[ChiDragon]

Exhale is harder to 'get' smooth than inhale for sure. The fewer exhale 'spasms' the better the cultivation is progressing in the style we teach ( 8 Strands Silk Brocade). Even now, and after many years; if I am even a bit 'tensed' anywhere then exhale can have a slight spasm or 'wave' to it at the get go.

 

The practice of Tai Ji is the best for not having such problem. IMMHO I don't believe that the 8 Strands Silk Brocade(八段錦) provides the best method in breathing. Remember, one must be able to have "chi sunken to the Dan Tian". If one has not accomplished this goal, then, one has not been completed the course of Chi Kung.

 

PS.......

氣沈丹田, sink chi to the Dan Tian, is the key to your success in Chi Kung.

[ChiDragon]

 

Same to you too, my Taoist friend.

[ChiDragon]

I forgot to reply to this part.

 

It's not a problem for me to hold the breath for maybe five to ten seconds. I can still enjoy a smooth and relaxing exhale. But only if I'm being still. Doing this in combination with movements isn't realistic for me except as a kind of power movement.

 

I have just tested myself and took a deep breath as "Chi sunk to the Dan Tain". I held my breath for 60 seconds without lightheaded nor a red face. By holding, I mean not exhaling nor inhaling but regulated my breath up and down in the trachea. Btw I had held my breath before but not regulating, then my face was all red. Since I know how to regulate my breath, I am no longer having the feeling of any suffocation nor a red face.

Edited April 5, 2014 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

The practice of Tai Ji is the best for not having such problem. IMMHO I don't believe that the 8 Strands Silk Brocade(八段錦) provides the best method in breathing. Remember, one must be able to have "chi sunken to the Dan Tian". If one has not accomplished this goal, then, one has not been completed the course of Chi Kung.

PS.......

氣沈丹田, sink chi to the Dan Tian, is the key to your success in Chi Kung.

 

Yes I agree.

8 Strands has its limitations but its advantage for the type of teaching and cultivation we do is that it is highly suitable for elderly people as it is gentle and easy to remember the sequence.

Especially standing form which even wheelchair users can participate in as a 'sitting' form.

No foot movements to learn and remember.

 

[zanshin]

I just did an experiment with a pulse oximetry. (SaO2= blood oxygenation and 92 to 100% considered normal. )

 

Normal breathing

Heart rate 68, SaO2 99 or 100%

 

Inhale to LDT and held 2 min

Pulse went down to mid 60s SaO2 to 95

 

Interesting that my heart knew to slow down instead of going into panic mode to speed up. Also that SaO2 only to 95 as I really did feel I needed to breath by 2 min but was able to do controlled exhale and back to normal breathing without gasping or anything. I didn't look if my face turned red. I am quite pale anyway so does not take much.

 

About 1 1/2 min normal breathing. HR sped up a little to low 80s to high 70s til SaO2 back to 100 then all back to baseline.

 

I think any breath holding would likely be a terrible technique for most elderly or those in poor health as their baseline likely in low 90s so any drop could be bad for the brain. Trying to see if people will improve baseline with learning simply to breath correctly would be an interesting experiment for those who teach qigong for those groups. Pulse ox costs about 100$ ( US). I was surprised that my number stayed well within normal range with 2 min hold inhale.

Edited April 5, 2014 by zanshin

[Brian]

According to one definition I have read on TTB, zanshin, you are an enlightened qigong master (or qigong mistress or whatever...)

[GrandmasterP]

I just did an experiment with a pulse oximetry. (SaO2= blood oxygenation and 92 to 100% considered normal. )

Normal breathing

Heart rate 68, SaO2 99 or 100%

Inhale to LDT and held 2 min

Pulse went down to mid 60s SaO2 to 95

Interesting that my heart knew to slow down instead of going into panic mode to speed up. Also that SaO2 only to 95 as I really did feel I needed to breath by 2 min but was able to do controlled exhale and back to normal breathing without gasping or anything. I didn't look if my face turned red. I am quite pale anyway so does not take much.

About 1 1/2 min normal breathing. HR sped up a little to low 80s to high 70s til SaO2 back to 100 then all back to baseline.

I think any breath holding would likely be a terrible technique for most elderly or those in poor health as their baseline likely in low 90s so any drop could be bad for the brain. Trying to see if people will improve baseline with learning simply to breath correctly would be an interesting experiment for those who teach qigong for those groups. Pulse ox costs about 100$ ( US). I was surprised that my number stayed well within normal range with 2 min hold inhale.

 

+1

I teach seniors ( plus I am a senior but not as old as most of the folks I teach).

Holding breath is out of the question as is anything to strenuous or complex to learn.

We began with Mindfulness as an additional study last year and that has really paid dividends.

Whilst the idea is to 'return to the breathing' to calm the monkey mind, a side effect is that as they practice breathing steadily then for many their breathing improves.

We use the same breathing technique for Mindfulness as for QiGong.

Tongue up and in through nose down into LDT.

Tongue down and out through mouth working towards out as long as in.

When they begin the out is always a lot shorter than the in breath and always 'jumpy'.

As they progress the out lengthens and becomes a lot smoother.

It's all good and many benefits not just physically but psychologically too.

Here's some refereed research via that link in my sig.

That research was funded by our National Health Service which has introduced Mindfulness.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Breath retention.

 

Two minutes is pretty good man.

 

That's the kind of thing I do a lot.

 

I can do two and a half minutes or more if I'm properly prepared.

 

I think my heart rate actually slows down.

 

I ain't gonna test it.

 

I ain't no guinea pig.

...

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I just did a typical breath retention type exercise.

 

Inhale took 60-70 seconds.

 

Held with certain regulation techniques for a little over two minutes.

 

Exhaled rapidly but confidently, followed by further retentions etc.

 

Could I do much more?

 

I have in the past.

 

I couldn't say whether my heart rate went up.

 

I felt it stayed more or less the same.

 

Conclusion of said experiment:

 

Fucked if I know!

 

Ha ha.. oh no matter.

 

So.

 

These sets of breath practices I call the Peerless Pranayama of the Blue Wizard.

 

It's actually called Tu na.

 

You godda be kiddin' me.

 

AYE! Radio Tu na I AM.

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I ought to clarify.

 

In no way should anything I say regarding breath techniques be misconstrued as advice or instruction.

 

Firstly, these practices are inherently dangerous.

 

Secondly, I leave out a lot of details.

 

Adepts do that kind of thing.

 

 

Do as I say, don't do as I do.

 

Or you be do do.

 

Furthermore, I reserve the right to ignore my own advice.

 

And often do.

 

Besides which, you can't do as I do.

 

Unless you superior buddha.

 

Like me.

 

Am I pushing my luck?

 

My hands are sweating so I guess not.

 

On edit: I think the Supreme Buddha is Kuan Yin, Buddha of Compassion. The Ultimate Feminine.

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[ChiDragon]

I just did an experiment with a pulse oximetry. (SaO2= blood oxygenation and 92 to 100% considered normal. )

 

Normal breathing

Heart rate 68, SaO2 99 or 100%

 

Inhale to LDT and held 2 min

Pulse went down to mid 60s SaO2 to 95

 

Interesting that my heart knew to slow down instead of going into panic mode to speed up. Also that SaO2 only to 95 as I really did feel I needed to breath by 2 min but was able to do controlled exhale and back to normal breathing without gasping or anything. I didn't look if my face turned red. I am quite pale anyway so does not take much.

 

About 1 1/2 min normal breathing. HR sped up a little to low 80s to high 70s til SaO2 back to 100 then all back to baseline.

 

I think any breath holding would likely be a terrible technique for most elderly or those in poor health as their baseline likely in low 90s so any drop could be bad for the brain. Trying to see if people will improve baseline with learning simply to breath correctly would be an interesting experiment for those who teach qigong for those groups. Pulse ox costs about 100$ ( US). I was surprised that my number stayed well within normal range with 2 min hold inhale.

 

Hold your breath for 2 minutes is great. However, it was not a standard practice for anyone. It is only an demonstration to indicate the level of practice in progress. It was not recommended for most elderly to hold their breath but to breathe smoothly. If one has mastered the UMB and continue to breathe that way as normal breathing, then one will live longer and healthier. With this kind of breathing experience, even when people get older should not have any breathing problem or holding the breath.

 

Edited April 6, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

My breath retention is typically the first phase in my low breath sinking.

 

In order to strengthen first weaken.

 

Or is it the other way round?

 

Heh.

 

It's part of a technique whose purpose is to create Ultimate Relaxation, a significant principle in Wizard Wayz.

 

But I expand the lungs tremendously.

 

I just wonder how the healing of the smoking damage takes place...

 

I think I counter it on an ongoing basis.

 

It could be I might be a lot healthier without the smoking.

 

Controversial, I know.

 

I got smoking skills, see.

 

Smoking seriously heals you and others around you.

 

Hell.

 

Yam wad yam.

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[ChiDragon]

So.

These sets of breath practices I call the Peerless Pranayama of the Blue Wizard.

It's actually called Tu na.

You godda be kiddin' me.

 

AYE! Radio Tu na I AM.

...

 

Yeah, you got that right. Tu Na is all about AM and FM. If you don't like to call it Tu Na, let's call it the UMB. It's only a name for identification. In this case, it is about the modulations of inhalation and exhalation. AM is the regulation or modulation of the amount of air breathing in and out of the lung. FM is the regulation or modulation of the time duration for inhalation and exhalation.

Edited April 7, 2014 by ChiDragon

[flowing hands]

When I was in my forties and I practiced a lot of Kung Fu and qigong I had a resting heart rate of 52.

When I was a little younger than that and I practiced meditation every day I think my resting heart rate during meditation went down into the mid forties. Now I think my resting heart rate is about 60. I do not meditate anymore so I don't know what it would be. What I was taught is not to force anything and if your breath is taken slowly and long and things that are in your head is the most important bit!

[ChiDragon]

When I was in my forties and I practiced a lot of Kung Fu and qigong I had a resting heart rate of 52.

When I was a little younger than that and I practiced meditation every day I think my resting heart rate during meditation went down into the mid forties. Now I think my resting heart rate is about 60. I do not meditate anymore so I don't know what it would be. What I was taught is not to force anything and if your breath is taken slowly and long and things that are in your head is the most important bit!

 

That is the most fundamental way of breathing to begin with. It is not a fix formula. Normally, a good teacher won't tell you the rest. The rest is up to your own intuition throughout your practice. Your teacher may be expecting some feedback from you to show some progress. If your breathing doesn't have any significant improvement, then you are wasting your effort.

 

I am sorry, one will not make progress without absorbing the meaning of "Sink Chi to the Dan Tian" by now.

 

Btw my resting heart rate is about 60 also. It would be considered normal for a healthy person.

[soaring crane]

sub-50s here but who's counting? It's a side effect of ultra-long distance running, and I'm not 100% convinced that it's a healthy condition.

 

To all, once again, ChiD's original post isn't about holding the breath to see how long you can hold it, or about pushing anything to its limit, or monitoring O2 utilization or whatever. He simply described a breath technique that someone (presumably someone else) has been practicing for 30 years and feels has benefited him greatly.

 

If you hold your breath for two minutes, can you then exhale very softly and silently? That'd take some years of dedicated practice. And if you can't, then don't (The Capt is describing some pretty advanced stuff up there, too, I'm impressed ).

 

Breath holding is a standard qigong breathing technique - which can be practiced by anyone. There's a system that calls very simply for four heartbeats i.e. inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for four, hold for four. If you become short of breathe, take a break, breath naturally for a few seconds and try again. If it's impossible to do it comfortably for four heartbeats, try three.... This isn't anything revolutionary. But it is quite effective.

Edited April 6, 2014 by soaring crane

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Don't you worry 'bout me none mr soarin' crane.

 

I bin doin' increasingly advanced pranayamic exercises for 26 years.

 

But like I say.

 

Don't try this at home, kids.

 

Also of course, I don't do it simply for the health benefits.

 

It is an aid to profound insight meditation and magickal workings.

 

Helps me work the effulgent rigpa.

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[GrandmasterP]

My RHR has always been low.

Not from any practise, it's just always been slow since I was a kid.

Had to do a 'treadmill' task at hospital for a physical a while ago and they couldn't get it up as high as they wanted.

Had to plead with the techies for mercy and switch off the treadmill after a while.

I was knackered!

Edited April 6, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[ChiDragon]

My RHR has always been low.

Not from any practise, it's just always been slow since I was a kid.

Had to do a 'treadmill' task at hospital for a physical a while ago and they couldn't get it up as high as they wanted.

Had to plead with the techies for mercy and switch off the treadmill after a while.

I was knackered!

 

Interesting! How is your blood pressure...???

[ChiDragon]

@ zanshin and
@ Captain Mar-Vell.....
May I ask how much do you weight....???
PM me if you prefer...!!! Thanks!

[ChiDragon]

Chidragon what method do you use to get dampness out of your body? I know it's less inhale more exhale. I've been playing around with it today. iInoticed if you have a lot of dampness and sit in the car, it builds up. when I get home I get something to eat and practice tai chi and some breathing to get the dampness out. The movement helps get stuff out of my system so when I eat, I fully get the energy out of food.

 

Unfortunately, once I do tai chi afterwards. I'm more hungry because the mucus is out and my stomach says feed me haha.

 

I don't know what do you mean by "to get dampness out of your body".

 

It is normal when you get hungry after doing some exercises and Tai Ji is no exception.

Edited April 11, 2014 by ChiDragon