maheosphet Posted April 2, 2014 Are both equally accurate representations? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) We kinda did this elsewhere. It's important to define one's terms for discussion to proceed meaningfully. How are you defining Mindfulness and Mindlessness please? Edited April 2, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maheosphet Posted April 2, 2014 I'm particularly referring to this: mind·less : showing no use of intelligence or thought http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mindless Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maheosphet Posted April 2, 2014 (edited) Mind, in English is equivalent to the brain, and disconnected from emotional aspects such as heart. Heart is part of the mind and without intelligence or thinking in the broader scope. Edited April 2, 2014 by maheosphet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 2, 2014 Yeah, we talked about this elsewhere but I'll talk about it here too. (You know me.) In common American English I would think that most people would associate mindless with "not having a clue". Perhaps void of rational thought? However, we are in the Taoist Discussion forum so I will express my understanding in Taoist terms as well as I can. Mindfulness is similar to awareness. And I am speaking only of the observable universe. We are aware of our surroundings and mindful of our position in these surroundings and aware of changes taking place within ourself (our mental/emotional responses) as well as the rest of our environment. Mindlessness is a state we are in when practicing empty-minded meditation. But we are still just as much aware as in the above. It is just that we are not holding to any of the input as nothing has inspired us to do anything. As Chuang Tzu said, "Listen with your heart." (For me that means our subconscious mind, or if you will, our emotions.) 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted April 3, 2014 I feel that the former connotes processing and the latter absorption. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted April 3, 2014 So do I, now; Brian. Super definitions. Many thanks. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted April 3, 2014 "Listen with your heart."It means one is treating something in a very serious manner. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted April 3, 2014 My heart must be lighter than that, because I had momentary surprise at the idea of seriousness as an expression of the 'heart' 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted April 3, 2014 mindlessness is an empty mind that notices nothing. Mindfulness is a quiet mind that notices much. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 3, 2014 mindlessness is an empty mind that notices nothing. Mindfulness is a quiet mind that notices much. Rather than "notices nothing" I like to think of it more at "lingers on nothing" based on my understanding and experiences of "empty-minded meditation". 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Rather than "notices nothing" I like to think of it more at "lingers on nothing" based on my understanding and experiences of "empty-minded meditation". IMMHO... To an ordinary person, mindlessness is "notices nothing". For a cultivator, mindlessness is "lingers on nothing". Edited April 3, 2014 by ChiDragon 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted April 3, 2014 IMMHO... To an ordinary person, mindlessness is "notices nothing". For a cultivator, mindlessness is "lingers or nothing". I believe you are right, CD. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) This is our definition of Mindfulness for the ( entirely secular) MBSR classes we teach at our centre, other equally valid definitions are available though..... "Mindfulness is a way of paying attention to the present moment, using techniques like meditation, breathing and yoga. It helps us become more aware of our thoughts and feelings so that instead of being overwhelmed by them, we are better able to manage them. Practising mindfulness can give people more insight into their emotions, boost their attention and concentration and improve relationships. Its proven to help with stress, anxiety, depression and addictive behaviours, and can even have a positive effect on physical problems like hypertension, heart disease and chronic pain." The cultivation encourages people to observe and let go of thoughts, by returning to their breathing so that they are less likely to be overwhelmed by thoughts and cares. Edited April 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted April 3, 2014 I believe you are right, CD. Wouldnt that be lingers ON nothing? and if a person had ADD they would then be highly cultivated? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted April 3, 2014 Wouldnt that be lingers ON nothing? and if a person had ADD they would then be highly cultivated? I was trying to not get too hung up on the language itself. Yes, it should have been "on" (but that seemed a typo). As to the ADD question -- I think the answer would be "yes" in the same way that an Olympic-class swimmer would automatically be highly cultivated by merit of lung capacity and high blood-oxygen level (which is to say "ummm... no.") 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted April 3, 2014 Well , If CD wants to say that the mind lingers on nothingness , the proper word structure would appear to be mindlessness , unless you think you mind is the absence of structured thoughts, and thats not the conventional view of mind but rather the lack of one. He could have meant that the mind does linger on things but when its not , it is an experience of nothing. So I decided to tease a bit. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) It's a toughie and no mistake. Thoughts are not things as such but we all have lots of them bounding around north of our necks as a rule. Mindfulness finds a quiet space focused in the breathing 'in between' thoughts. Thoughts can then be observed and 'let go'. Thoughts are still there ( where would they go?) so if we take thoughts as 'mind' ( tricky one I know) the person in that mindful state is not without mind ( mindless?) but in a better ( mindful) place where thoughts no longer dictate to swamp the 'now'. That's not any attempt at a 'right' answer BTW. Not sure that there is one. Just me thinking out loud here. Edited April 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) It's a toughie and no mistake. Thoughts are not things as such but we all have lots of them bounding around north of our necks as a rule. Mindfulness finds a quiet space focused in the breathing 'in between' thoughts. Thoughts can then be observed and 'let go'. Thoughts are still there ( where would they go?) so if we take thoughts as 'mind' ( tricky one I know) the person in that mindful state is not without mind ( mindless?) but in a better ( mindful) place where thoughts no longer dictate to swamp the 'now'. That's not any attempt at a 'right' answer BTW. Not sure that there is one. Just me thinking out loud here. I think that does make sound sense GMP , I just take issues with the wording , which are wobbly steppingstones laid before fools like me. Id say a quieted mind is an appropriate term , or an unstructured mental state , or something else,... In fact ,... Id say from personal experience that unstructured mental state is the one which I like best , because it appears that the inherent structuring of language is extremely antipathic to any peaceful states Im in and it would fit with an injunction about spending too much time gabbing. (right speech) Drop the unspoken words and the mind becomes much more ,,, ummm unstructured. Edited April 3, 2014 by Stosh 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Love the stepping stones analogy. I can't post pictures ( or emoticons) on this poor tablet but have a picture ( think it's a Hokusai woodblock print) of a guy crossing a raging river on stepping stones. He is standing on a stepping stone with stepping stones behind him that he has already crossed by. However there is no stepping stone shown in front of him just the raging torrent. The text down the side of the picture translates as something like...... " When he steps forward then the next stepping stone will appear." Edited April 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiForce Posted April 3, 2014 Don't get too caught up with words. It is about not unclinging. It is about letting it go. That's all you need to know. Not about being obsessively "mindful" of something. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted April 3, 2014 " When he steps forward then the next stepping stone will appear." I had a chuckle. Is that an example of faith? Or confidence? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Or might it be.... Magic Stepping Stones. Rocks can be wise. Edited April 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLB Posted April 3, 2014 What if I wasn't in a position to differentiate? The thing I want is there. It doesn't care that I gave the animals names or wear shoes. It doesn't promise that I will understand the borderline between philosophy and psychology if I look for it. It waits for me as patiently if I approach it with nothing or pour out what is most precious to me. If I draw a circle, it is outside of its circumfrence. Noticing that doesn't tell me what the finger is doing drawing a circle. But the situation is telling me something. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted April 4, 2014 Well , If CD wants to say that the mind lingers on nothingness , the proper word structure would appear to be mindlessness , unless you think you mind is the absence of structured thoughts, and thats not the conventional view of mind but rather the lack of one. He could have meant that the mind does linger on things but when its not , it is an experience of nothing. So I decided to tease a bit. I so often give him a hard time and I believe he had the concept right despite a minor language issue or two. I gave him the benefit of the doubt since his English is about a million times better than my Chinese would be were the situation reversed. I'll split hairs with you 'til the cows come home, though, if it would make you feel better. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
