The Hare Krishna Movement...

[LeoViridis]

I was wondering what everyone here thought about the Hare Krishna Movement... I don't mean any offense, if anyone here is part of the movement, but some people close to me joined them a while ago, and I've noticed some unpleasant changes in them. I've read a few things and heard a few things, and personally see the organization itself as a bit hypocritical... They advertise "no materialism", but earn millions each month. I've heard they even bought a small castle in Belgium. They teach their members that communicating with anyone else but devotees is meaningless, because everyone and everything else is "impure"... They practically worship Srila Prabhupada as an enlightened holy man, but checking out his interviews reveal him to be little more than an absurd racist, sexist and discriminator... They are taught that their way is the only way, and the only true spirituality, everything else is bogus... But I don't think that simply chanting 16 words for several hours a day will spare you from reincarnation and karma. They also have not one person who succeeded, to show as an example...

 

So, any thoughts about the movement?
I was merely wondering how others see it...

[themiddleway]

Every religious group has it's shadow side and some are worse than others. I find none of the above surprising, my greatest disgust and anger is reserved for child abuse, which has been prevalent across all religions. The assimilitation of Eastern spirituality has been something of a mix blessing. The naïveté that any of these traditions are the panacea for the every ill of society is bullshit but some teachers are still trading an absolutist salve.

[Cheshire Cat]

So, any thoughts about the movement?

I was merely wondering how others see it...

 

There are harekrishna people who dislike the iskcon

 

http://krishna.org/

[silent thunder]

their karma will crush their dogma... eventually

[LeoViridis]

Every religious group has it's shadow side and some are worse than others. I find none of the above surprising, my greatest disgust and anger is reserved for child abuse, which has been prevalent across all religions. The assimilitation of Eastern spirituality has been something of a mix blessing. The naïveté that any of these traditions are the panacea for the every ill of society is bullshit but some teachers are still trading an absolutist salve.

 

Abuse of any kind is abominable, I agree. The problem with religion is that it can bring significant power, and power usually corrupts. Religion is as fallible as the men who run it.

 

 

There are harekrishna people who dislike the iskcon

 

http://krishna.org/

 

I know of these people, although I am not very fond of Srila Prabhupada...

 

 

their karma will crush their dogma... eventually

 

Yes, but they refuse to see it. I pity those people... It's like they're chasing after clouds and living in an illusion they are trying so hard to overcome... Sadly, it's almost impossible to talk to most of them, as they refuse to listen. But, I guess it's their path and their decision.

[GrandmasterP]

I once stayed at their main place in Vrindaban in India simply because they had the nicest guest house with vacancies.

It was a beautiful complex and the people were really friendly.

Mainly Americans but some Indians and Europeans.

No Brits that I came across.

Their main cultivation is endless repetition of the Hare Krishna mantra but the temple services were really something to see.

The guys blowing conch shells at the altar were knee deep in flowers that devotees were throwing a them.

Heck of a sight and one that I'll never forget.

It had a nice 'vibe' about it is all I can say.

Not my cuppa tea but for those that like that life then good luck to them.

Edited April 3, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Nungali]

I still have fond memories of the HK, from back when I was a teenager, they seemed the forefront of things spiritual, eastern, anti-materialistic, etc, we would hang out with them in the park on Sunday and go back in their double decker bus to the big house they lived in for a feast ... oh yes and the food !

 

Good times. Then it started to change, get commercial, big, mass produced, seeking converts and food changed to fast turn it out crap. Then it turned into a big organisation .... and so on ... Krishna disneyland with lakes and gold statues and all that ridiculous stuff that evolves out of a 'successful' religion that seems to steer it towards a super-cult.

 

If you are going to get into it, you better be ready for it - culturally , and anyone that isnt and joins up and then complains about it only has themselves to blame. A small 'Indian guru' cult started in town here, a new guy arrives with orange robes and an old Indian 'guru' in orange robes in tow. 'The temple of Love' they started calling themselves, more and more people joined and started wearing robes and beads ... it was very fashionable ... then some of the woman started complaining ... and started a rebellion; the guru was sexist, old school, had racist views, a disciplinarian .... etc , etc , bitch bitch ...

 

I had to answer them; well, of course he was ! ... he was a traditional old Vedic man / teacher ... what did you expect ? Some new age imitation that would teach you what you wanted to hear .... if you dont want that why did you seek out an elderly traditional Indian man - idiots!

 

I have used some of the basic HK techniques and they work quiet well for some things; the difference is ; one can approach it as a magician and use the techniques to advantage, or one can approach it as a devotee and accept the system as an accurate and truthful picture and as a religious follower (not my choice).

 

I have had some fun with them though (including the HK guy that insisted the Moon phase must be like he thought it was outlined in the BvG .... he argued with me for ages ... eventually, since he couldnt accept my argument I took him outside and showed him the moon "Look! You can argue with me but you cant argue with the Moon!"

 

(Hmmm .... I just added one emoticon , the page jumped and lost the whole paragraph ! )

 

A lot of them dont really believe all of it though - they used to sneak off and come to our place for 'unapproved' activity ... also their disguises arent very good , (cheap wigs and a high neckline to cover the throat beads) when collecting money for 'youth refuge centres' and for 'children' (hey ... we are all someone's children) or scoring grass.

[Nungali]

Robot Krishna dollies to dress up and throw flowers at ?

 

http://krishna.org/irm-plans-to-build-a-spiritual-disneyland-at-vrindavana/

[LeoViridis]

I once stayed at their main place in Vrindaban in India simply because they had the nicest guest house with vacancies.

It was a beautiful complex and the people were really friendly.

Mainly Americans but some Indians and Europeans.

No Brits that I came across.

Their main cultivation is endless repetition of the Hare Krishna mantra but the temple services were really something to see.

The guys blowing conch shells at the altar were knee deep in flowers that devotees were throwing a them.

Heck of a sight and one that I'll never forget.

It had a nice 'vibe' about it is all I can say.

Not my cuppa tea but for those that like that life then good luck to them.

 

Indeed, people there tend to be friendly. A lot of them seem to be a bit too radical though.

 

 

I still have fond memories of the HK, from back when I was a teenager, they seemed the forefront of things spiritual, eastern, anti-materialistic, etc, we would hang out with them in the park on Sunday and go back in their double decker bus to the big house they lived in for a feast ... oh yes and the food !

 

Good times. Then it started to change, get commercial, big, mass produced, seeking converts and food changed to fast turn it out crap. Then it turned into a big organisation .... and so on ... Krishna disneyland with lakes and gold statues and all that ridiculous stuff that evolves out of a 'successful' religion that seems to steer it towards a super-cult.

 

If you are going to get into it, you better be ready for it - culturally , and anyone that isnt and joins up and then complains about it only has themselves to blame. A small 'Indian guru' cult started in town here, a new guy arrives with orange robes and an old Indian 'guru' in orange robes in tow. 'The temple of Love' they started calling themselves, more and more people joined and started wearing robes and beads ... it was very fashionable ... then some of the woman started complaining ... and started a rebellion; the guru was sexist, old school, had racist views, a disciplinarian .... etc , etc , bitch bitch ...

 

I had to answer them; well, of course he was ! ... he was a traditional old Vedic man / teacher ... what did you expect ? Some new age imitation that would teach you what you wanted to hear .... if you dont want that why did you seek out an elderly traditional Indian man - idiots!

 

I have used some of the basic HK techniques and they work quiet well for some things; the difference is ; one can approach it as a magician and use the techniques to advantage, or one can approach it as a devotee and accept the system as an accurate and truthful picture and as a religious follower (not my choice).

 

I have had some fun with them though (including the HK guy that insisted the Moon phase must be like he thought it was outlined in the BvG .... he argued with me for ages ... eventually, since he couldnt accept my argument I took him outside and showed him the moon "Look! You can argue with me but you cant argue with the Moon!"

 

(Hmmm .... I just added one emoticon , the page jumped and lost the whole paragraph ! )

 

A lot of them dont really believe all of it though - they used to sneak off and come to our place for 'unapproved' activity ... also their disguises arent very good , (cheap wigs and a high neckline to cover the throat beads) when collecting money for 'youth refuge centres' and for 'children' (hey ... we are all someone's children) or scoring grass.

 

Well, I don't know how it was in the beginning, just how it is now. I still find it detestable that he basically taught sexism, racism and discrimination, and tried to pass it off as some "pure knowledge" or "pure science", it's just silly. I can't believe people actually bought that in the 20th century. But, I guess, to each their own... I know what all the chanting is supposed to achieve, but I've never heard of any definite results... The man was -and still is- worshiped as some holy man, yet he was just a man, and died like a man. With world views like that, and what he was preaching, I highly doubt he ended reincarnation and escaped karma... Perhaps I'm a bit rigid when it comes to this, but I highly doubt it can be ended with just chanting.

[MooNiNite]

But I don't think that simply chanting 16 words for several hours a day will spare you from reincarnation and karma.

 

chanting just about anything does something

[GrandmasterP]

Yep.

Chanting works irrespective of what is chanted.

It's a pretty good cultivation for quieting a 'monkey mind' is repetition.

Doesn't have to be out loud but that's said to be more effective than silent repetition.

The HK mantra is quite a long one.

I prefer something shorter but each to their own.

Nembutsu does it for me.

Edited April 4, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Trunk]

They advertise "no materialism", but earn ...

 

So, any thoughts about the movement?

I was merely wondering how others see it...

 

Well, many of the things you list are typical of a cult, and I'm not advocating joining the Krsna movement, but just to mention a few good parts from my pt of view...

 

There's a major Krsna temple in Culver City and their restaraunt, "Govinda's", serves *excellent* food; I often go there when I'm in that part of town. I've also read some sections of the Baghavad Gita and it seems to me a spiritual classic. The scene where Arjuna drives his chariot out to the middle of the battlefield, sees friends and relatives on both sides, and throws down his weapons ... and then dialogs with his charioteer (Krsna)... is a very moving metaphor for life. Also the central of "live life while keeping your consciousness focused on God (or an enlightened intermediary)" is central to many religions. I've been to a few chants at the Krsna temple and the vibe is a lot more pleasant and refined than around town generally. So, all that

 

Would I join the community, follow all their rules, lock stock & barrel, the whole schmeer? No.

Is approaching people at airports with the Gita in hand silly? Yup.

 

- Trunk

[Cheshire Cat]

Regarding the HK mantra, I should say that I practised it extensively for hours in meditative equipoise (so, not chanting aloud since this is experientially less effective than inner recitation... although HK people say that it's better to chant in this dark age).

 

Apart from the meditative benefits of chanting, I experienced some "occult/magical" effects:

1) I noticed the growth of an admiration and a sincere devotion for Mr. Prabhupada (even if I didn't like him at first);

2) as a result, I started looking for his writings which I found inspiring;

3) Suddenly, I found myself detached from the "material world" with no interest in material gain... but I developed the desire to join the devotes;

4) love for Krishna;

5) I became vegetarian;

6)other stuff;

 

To break the enchantment, I spent a day with the devotes who I found remarkably similar to catholic christian devotes full of dogmatic non-sense, with little experience in real mantra meditation... and usually with some controversial abuse stories on their back.

 

Yes, there's some magic behind the hare krishna mantra: it was charged by the spiritual practice of this man

 

 

Bhaktivinoda was aware that his humble disciple Gaurakisora was a spiritual giant, therefore he sent his son Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to him for the initiation in the Gaudiya sampradaya.

With his spiritual blessings, this movement experienced a tremendous success.

Imho.

Edited April 4, 2014 by DAO rain TAO

[Nungali]

To break the enchantment, I spent a day with the devotes

 

 

That is an all time classic statement ! ... and you hit the nail on the head with that one - enchantment !

 

As you outlined this is an effective but dangerous path. That is, the Path of Bhakti for the Yogi or the Acts of Worship for the Magician.

 

It is great if one wants to become a devotee but not a Yogi * or Magician. The thing is, one is working with the emotional aspects and using those things connected to it; 'magical glamour ', attachment, fascination, admiration ... its a great charge as well (who hasnt felt great when they 'fell in love' ) - it is using the 'powers of Venus' and they can slip out of ones control ( as Venus works on a deep level and some find its influence difficult to resist ** ).

 

You just needed to chant more Dao rain Tao ... then you would have been blinded to the things you didnt like about the devotees. Thats why a lot of the HK 'solutions' are just chant more, just keep chanting ....

 

It is an effective way to find Union with aspects of deity , but I wonder if it is replacing one 'vice' for another ?

 

 

*Perhaps it is more acceptable as a Yogi .... as a Yogi can be someone who practices and branch of Yoga, where a Magician who becomes devoted to one particular diety, and sees it as an ultimate reality and joins in with others the same (into an organised religion) may not be considered a magician any longer - IMO a Magician should partake of all 8 branches (or limbs) to an an extent .

 

** H er function is suggested in the etymological relationship of the root *venes- with Latin venenum (poison, venom), in the sense of "a charm, magic philtre". This aspect is used as a tool in religion and devotional practice but should come with a warning for the magician. Or ... 'enchantment' .

Edited April 4, 2014 by Nungali

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

You'd be a great guy Nungali, if you had less admiration for Crowley.

 

Old Crow as I like to call him.

 

Not to worry.

 

This is what I am here for;

 

The scene where Arjuna drives his chariot out to the middle of the battlefield, sees friends and relatives on both sides, and throws down his weapons ... and then dialogs with his charioteer (Krsna)... is a very moving metaphor for life.

 

I would be very grateful if someone could relate to me, in their own words, the advice given by Krisna to Arjuna.

 

Thank you in advance.

...

[Nungali]

...

You'd be a great guy Nungali, if you had less admiration for Crowley.

 

Old Crow as I like to call him.

 

I wouldn't say 'admire' - that would be too Venusian and Guru like

 

Not to worry.

 

This is what I am here for;

 

Do you mean I should not worry and you are here to worry.

 

I dont like that mantra, so I wont use it.

 

I would be very grateful if someone could relate to me, in their own words, the advice given by Krisna to Arjuna.

 

Thank you in advance.

...

 

Ummm ... sort of ; do what thou wilt Arjuna .

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Ummm ... sort of ; do what thou wilt Arjuna .

 

Yo ho ho.

 

I doubt that really covers it.

 

And no, I didnt mean that I was here to worry!

 

Although sometimes it feels a bit like it.

 

I didn't mean it anyway Nungali.

 

You would still be a great guy even if ya loved Crowley ta bits!

 

...

[Nungali]

I was tying to be brief as I could. Its a good read and discourse but what does it all boil down to?

 

Krishna is far to smart to make such a decision ... its implications are too vast theologically. Krishna is down around Tiphareth and Netzach (there's that Venusian influence again ... and NO , It not a case of 'love' either , or anything Venusian). He isn't going to say ; 'Go and smite them and their children and all this land will be yours' like some sub-demiurge, desert-demon, stuck half way between Geburah and Binah ( in the abyss ) .

 

On the one hand Krishna is in a spot, what can he say? On the other hand it demonstrates an important point about human affairs and our 'free will', so that is a significant part of the teachings.

 

I dare say it has reflected on their societies (I mean the HK's) ; years back, the well established rural HK settlement at Murwillumbah (north of Nungaliville ) became a source of annoyance to some local red necks, they decided to 'get rid of them' and went around there to 'bash them' ( expecting peace loving weak hippy vegetarians, I suppose) They lined up at the gate and threatened abuse and violence ... but were dispelled by a mad charge of male devotees with farm tools, staffs and twirling nunchuks

 

Nowadays that HK community is a cultural part of that area. Recently there was a TV doco on some of the kids that grew up there ... it looked pretty good, they were well educated and bought up in a healthy wholesome way ... they turned out fine, were having success in their careers ... I have seen a lot worse !

 

 

 

Krishna can say to get the answer from yourself ... but you are after all warrior class. Could Ajurna really just change caste and choose not to be a warrior ( and I think the whole issue of 'set caste' needs to be seen in light of this dynamic where 'will' is concerned ) ... or just fail and run off?

 

Or perhaps a demonstration that ' culture' (religious culture that is) is more important than the units of that culture.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Nungali

[Cheshire Cat]

As you outlined this is an effective but dangerous path. That is, the Path of Bhakti for the Yogi or the Acts of Worship for the Magician.

 

Yes,

basically the HK cult came out of a right-handed tantric current, simplified to become a massive movement devoid of esoteric-ism: they adopted the popular chanted mantra meditation, the traditional Guru devotional yoga and the external deity yoga.

 

A tantrika was supposed to be quite a magician with devotion as a mere "tool".

In origin, bhakti was just an aspect of the path as we can see for example, in tibetan tantric buddhism (where the most popular and basic practice is om mani peme hung chanting).

Thus it was supposed to be just the first step in the practice and NOT the path in its entirety... unless you were an extreme ascetic.

 

Interesting insights on Venus

But the beautiful Lady doesn't like celibate people very much.

When there is so much sexual discipline, it's more about Diana, the moon goddess plus bits of Athena.

In the HK practices I discovered a kind of love much more intense and so overwhelming that love itself was ten times better than sex. Literally.

A breakthrough for my poor mind ...

 

I would be very grateful if someone could relate to me, in their own words, the advice given by Krisna to Arjuna.

 

In a couple of words, he said "Do your duty that is to kill all of your enemies: you cannot avoid this, but you should detach from the fruits of your actions".

Then, he explained various yogas to achieve this state, including the HK style of bhakti.

[Nungali]

Venus (the aspect I am talking about, the one deep in the psyche) uses sex as a means, one of her deep down motivations is to seek that love ... that " kind of love much more intense and so overwhelming that love itself was ten times better than sex. Literally." Unless she is well aspected and supported by Mercury, certain troublesome traits will arise. A good aspect with (or assistance from) Mercury can connect the 'separated lovers' and Venus might find sex more enjoyable and less fraught with drama and psychological trauma. It might just be a lot less complex to amp up the devotional practice to deity and stomp on the sex? Except that doesnt work in many cases . And it takes 2 very advanced practitioners to work both together without the drama and trauma

 

 

Thats why we practice 'acts of worship' . But when the 'trance' (or state) is attained , it is supposed to be used as a tool, not as an end in itself ( of course the HK would dispute that; devotion is the end in itself).

 

Of course that sort of thing is reserved for Krishna

 

 

Thats why it is dangerous (to the 'ordinary devotee')... it feels so good. I remember years ago hearing someone say they tried heroin ... it was great they said ... I thought it was really bad, but when I took it I felt sooo good! I had to interrupt; "Ummm ... thats why people get addicted to it, they dont get addicted to it because it feels bad, of course it feels good - that's the whole point of it ... ... .... (ominously) at first."

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I always rather enjoyed Prabhupada's writings, as a matter of fact.

 

I never thought of joining the cult.

 

I'm not a joiner.

 

Or should that be I'm not a follower?

 

I'm really not sure.

 

But that's a magnificent contribution Nungali!

 

Keep it up!

 

God bless ya man!

 

Salute the flute!

 

...

Edited April 6, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

In his discussion with a historian Arnold J. Toynbee in London, Bhaktivedanta Swami is quoted as saying: "I have started this Krishna Conscious Movement among the Indians and Americans and for the next ten thousand years it will increase."

 

He might have had a point.

 

Do we have room for a Krishnaism or similar sub forum?

 

I dig a pony?

 

Across The Universe?

 

Dear old John and George, dearly departed, very much missed.

 

Love 'em all.

 

Not sure quite what happened to Paul...

 

 

Oh yeah.

 

Toynbee Tiles.

 

All roads lead to Esalen.

...

[Nungali]

Salute the flute!

 

 

 

I am having extended Captain chuckles again the spasmodic type - thanks - it's probably healthy

[Nungali]

I should add I have known 'fringe' HKs' or perhaps 'lay' HKs, who weren't that tied up into devotion so it excluded other paths, some were quiet learned on the Vedas and where on a Jnana Yoga path - which might be more akin to a 'Magician' than a 'Devotee' ? ... and those people also looked after their kids too (you get good marks in my books for doing that ) .

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

I should add I have known 'fringe' HKs' or perhaps 'lay' HKs, who weren't that tied up into devotion so it excluded other paths, some were quiet learned on the Vedas and where on a Jnana Yoga path - which might be more akin to a 'Magician' than a 'Devotee' ? ... and those people also looked after their kids too (you get good marks in my books for doing that ) .

 

That sums me up pretty good man.

 

House husband hermit meditator/scholar/hedge wizard.

 

I was devotee, yes.

 

Bhakti yoga part of Wizard Wayz.

 

All yoga Wizard Wayz.

 

All Wizard Wayz yoga.

 

Way to god realisation.

 

Wizard Wayz Work.

 

Proven.

 

Indubitable.

 

My devotion though was to my children.

 

For were they not the Children of God, as we all are?

 

Till the police came and dragged me away, of course.

 

I'll tell you the full story one day.

 

It's fucking hilarious.

...