Where did the idea of cultivation originate?

[amoyaan]

Hey guys,

 

I've been trying to get a little clearer on the art of cultivation and the philosophy and reasoning behind it.

 

Firstly, I was wondering how cultivation has come to be such a fundamental aspect of Taoist practise? Lao Tzu doesn't appear to talk about it in the Tao Te Ching, although I guess there are so many different ways of interpreting it that maybe he could have obliquely referred to it. But to me, while not incompatible, the cultivating mindset seems to somehow go against what I perceive as what Lao Tzu was saying. He seemed to be urging us to quit striving and straining and trying to add more to ourselves, but just to let go and flow with the Tao, that which is already there, already whole and complete.

 

Is cultivation directly related to the idea of becoming an immortal?

 

I don't personally go in for the immortal thing, because I believe we already are immortal (as consciousness/awareness). But I do believe Taoist energy practises can be very beneficial on a number of levels and have do Stillness-Movement neigong and zhan zhaung mainly for health reasons...I also believe they are good at helping create a still and peaceful mind. So I wouldn't be without them. I also like the kind of passive nature of these practises as you are allowing healing and energy to build in an actionless-action kind of way.

 

Any thoughts?

[amoyaan]

Also....I have some questions about semen retention which seems to be a very big thing in Taoist practise for males. Does anyone know where this idea comes from? Again, Lao Tzu said nothing about this. Is it from other Taoist or Chinese texts?

 

I practised retention for about 90 days a couple of years ago...and was impressed at my discipline but I really didn't notice much difference, except for the fact my libido seemed to wither after a while. I'm not sure whether that was altogether good or not. It was never really out of control in the first place.

 

A lot of guys here seem to get amazing benefits from semen retention, but I'm really not sure what to make of it. Lots of mainstream studies seem to say that masturbation has a number of health benefits? The Taoist theory seems to be that excess masturbation/ejaculation has a deleterious effect on the body and energy. Which I can understand if it's excessive. But a friend of mine told me he masturbates at least twice a day and he's in amazing health and looks at least 10 years younger than he is. Go figure!

 

My natural impulse is to moderate. I think the real problem is when a sex/masturbation/porn vasana gets out of hand and one has no control over it, rather than the actual spilling of seed so to speak? Because a compulsion like that is clearly a great psychic and energetic drain. I like to be in the position where I can say yes or no to a sexual impulse. Interestingly I noticed that the times I felt a compulsive need to masturbate or whatever was usually when I was going through some emotional disturbance and it was like a way of covering up whatever suffering I was experiencing, like a comfort thing. When my mind is reasonably stable and I'm feeling good, there's no compulsion.

[GrandmasterP]

I don't know but there was a similar thread on the MA forum a couple of years ago and the one 'explanation' that stuck with me went something like this ( paraphrased)......

The guys who spread Taoism were wandering teachers .

Same went for the Ch'an teachers later and the Zen chaps.

These guys tended to lodge in the same places so got to meet up now and again

It was hard times and dangerous to travel so when they could pick up handy self defence moves they did and so MA began to evolve.

As things settled down and monasteries and temples were built then they carried on training MA to keep fit and for the times they went on pilgrimage and such.

These were spiritual guys so eventually the MA cultivation gained spiritual aspects and cultivation as a form of 'moving meditation' evolved from that.

 

Made sense to me, we'll never know for sure though.

Edited April 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[RiverSnake]

Hey amoyoan. I think the most important thing is that you have understanding and mastery over your sexual energy. That it flows uninhibited and you can consciously choose rather than be controlled by your desires. Eventually this level for self control extends into every aspect of our being (mind, emotions....etc) as we continue to cultivate.

 

I was wondering, when you first got on hear you started practice because of chronic fatigue. How's your health now adays?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited April 7, 2014 by OldChi

[amoyaan]

I don't know but there was a similar thread on the MA forum a couple of years ago and the one 'explanation' that stuck with me went something like this ( paraphrased)......

The guys who spread Taoism were wandering teachers .

Same went for the Ch'an teachers later and the Zen chaps.

These guys tended to lodge in the same places so got to meet up now and again

It was hard times and dangerous to travel so when they could pick up handy self defence moves they did and so MA began to evolve.

As things settled down and monasteries and temples were built then they carried on training MA to keep fit and for the times they went on pilgrimage and such.

These were spiritual guys so eventually the MA cultivation gained spiritual aspects and cultivation as a form of 'moving meditation' evolved from that.

 

Made sense to me, we'll never know for sure though.

Thanks Grandmaster P...this is really interesting and makes sense. I find it fascinating learning how traditions develop, often it's from an intermix of different elements. I was trying to join the dots myself but couldn't quite connect them.

 

Do Martial arts stem from Taoist philosophy somehow or were they there before but kind of got intermixed culturally?

 

Maybe I should find a decent history of Taoism book at some point. Although a lot of it would probably be conjecture I guess.

 

Hey amoyoan. I think the most important thing is that you have understanding and mastery over your sexual energy. That it flows uninhibited and you can consciously choose rather than be controlled by your desires. Eventually this level for self control extends into every aspect of our being (mind, emotions....etc) as we continue to cultivate.

 

I was wondering, when you first got on hear you started practice because of chronic fatigue. How's your health now adays?

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

Hi OldChi. Yeah, generally I find sexual energy is not an issue, except for some isolated times when it gets out of balance for whatever reason. I can naturally go for a week or several weeks without wanting to indulge, which i guess could be good or bad depending on who you ask. It's the emotional side I've really been trying to get a grip on lately...I've carried a lot of emotion and it's all been coming to the surface to be dealt with, which has been very painful. But it's all part of a healing process I guess.

 

My health is a little bit better than when I first started to practise but it's still an issue, and has been since I was a kid. In addition to qigong and meditation, etc, I am seeing a guy who is a very skilled acupuncturist/herbalist trained in TCM, CCM and ayurveda and a number of other things. He's helped me understand what's going on physically, most of which stems back to childhood when I had aggressive cancer and had what was then an experimental chemotherapy drug which cured the cancer but left my body a bit of a mess. There are no quick fixes, but hopefully there will be ongoing progress.

Edited April 7, 2014 by amoyaan

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Hey guys,

 

I've been trying to get a little clearer on the art of cultivation and the philosophy and reasoning behind it.

 

Firstly, I was wondering how cultivation has come to be such a fundamental aspect of Taoist practise? Lao Tzu doesn't appear to talk about it in the Tao Te Ching, although I guess there are so many different ways of interpreting it that maybe he could have obliquely referred to it. But to me, while not incompatible, the cultivating mindset seems to somehow go against what I perceive as what Lao Tzu was saying. He seemed to be urging us to quit striving and straining and trying to add more to ourselves, but just to let go and flow with the Tao, that which is already there, already whole and complete.

[...]

 

Cultivation should do this too, imo.

[ChiDragon]

The idea of "cultivation" was from 修道(cultivate the principle of Tao). Thus anything that one practices or try to attain perfection in any form of art or culture was considered to be a cultivation. For example, practice Chi Kung for better health or morality for being a better person was considered to be in the cultivation of the principles of Tao. In other words, it is either for the better physically or mentally will be considered as "cultivation".


Note:
修道(xiu tao): cultivate the principle of Tao.

Edited April 8, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Rara]

Hey guys,

 

I've been trying to get a little clearer on the art of cultivation and the philosophy and reasoning behind it.

 

Firstly, I was wondering how cultivation has come to be such a fundamental aspect of Taoist practise? Lao Tzu doesn't appear to talk about it in the Tao Te Ching, although I guess there are so many different ways of interpreting it that maybe he could have obliquely referred to it. But to me, while not incompatible, the cultivating mindset seems to somehow go against what I perceive as what Lao Tzu was saying. He seemed to be urging us to quit striving and straining and trying to add more to ourselves, but just to let go and flow with the Tao, that which is already there, already whole and complete.

 

Is cultivation directly related to the idea of becoming an immortal?

 

I don't personally go in for the immortal thing, because I believe we already are immortal (as consciousness/awareness). But I do believe Taoist energy practises can be very beneficial on a number of levels and have do Stillness-Movement neigong and zhan zhaung mainly for health reasons...I also believe they are good at helping create a still and peaceful mind. So I wouldn't be without them. I also like the kind of passive nature of these practises as you are allowing healing and energy to build in an actionless-action kind of way.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Take a look at my thread in the Lao Tzu sub-forum entitled "Lao Tzu and the belly".

 

Other than that, I believe it to be inclusive among lots of other things in TTC. Rather than having a section devoted to cultivation, it's more just hinted at indirectly throughout.

[soaring crane]

Just a short note to point out that the DDJ isn't the alpha and omega of all things Daoist-related.

[rex]

Couldn't the texts just be public exoteric manifestations of long standing esoteric oral traditions of practice? That is they impart the philosophy, view and underlying ethos but not the actual practice?

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Just a short note to point out that the DDJ isn't the alpha and omega of all things Daoist-related.

 

Ain't dat da truth.

 

Ha ha ha.

...

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Chuang Tze greater than Lao Tzu!

 

Always the butterfly, babe.

 

Always da butterfly.

 

/me winks.

...

[amoyaan]

I read Chuang Tzu years ago, having borrowed a book from a friend. I think I need my own copy

 

Yeah....the butterfly! Some days I'm actually pretty much convinced I AM the butterfly...