Philosophical Taoism

[dee]

Hehehe. What a trick question that one is. To really know - 100% absolute.

 

I have stated in other threads that there are no absolutes. Therefore I must respond, No, I can never really know.

 

However, Pretty close generally satisfies our needs.

 

On this planet, anything that does not have an upward velosity of 7 miles per second or greater will fall to earth if not otherwise supported. This is why people cannot levitate. Change the size of the planet and the needed velosity would change as well.

 

This is why I regularly repeat my position that what I present on this forum are my opinions and understandings. For me, I know that these are my truths. I doubt anyone else on this planet would accept all my opinions and understandings. But they are close enough for me.

 

Someone said that knowledge is infinate and our mental capacities are limited. For the limited to try to know the infinate would be like pissing into the wind. Our pant legs are going to get wet.

 

I've started a thread on absolutes. I was just asking I think myself.

 

We will never know for sure, but we will get close.

 

We ourselves can believe we know and that may be enough.

[GrandmasterP]

"may be 'adequate' ".... Perhaps?

 

Adequate implying ' enough to get by on'

( Still peckish)

 

As opposed to

 

" No more cake please. I've had enough."

( Replete)

 

 

:-)

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I've started a thread on absolutes. I was just asking I think myself.

 

Yes, that thread became inactive after I agreed with your previous post.

[exorcist_1699]

The classification of Taoism as philosophical or religious is some kind of Western conventional wisdom, which does not fit Taoism ; never should it be subject to such kind of arbitrary slicing.

To me Taoism looks more like some kind of 'hybrid ' :

When we consider Taoism's repeatedly stress about proofs , in every step or stage of our practice , so as to justify its theory , it looks nothing different from any Western scientific discipline.

However, its claim about spirit 's capability of existing outside of us , which no science can agree to , makes many people astonished , maybe disappointed; they reluctantly admit that Taoism can be a religion ...

How careless Taoist Western followers are !

When they are told that qi exists everywhere , inside or outside of our body, they should then sense the theoretical implication of the above assertion for wherever there is qi, based on the logic of Taoist equation : jing-qi-shen, there is an extra spiritual dimension , shen, co-exists with it , notwithstanding it has nothing to do with the Western sense of being religious .

Besides, Taoist ability of providing basic interpretation for all things happen in this universe , of course, defines itself as a philosophical system..

Last but not the least, because Taoism lays the foundation of all basic healing principles for the Chinese medicine, including acupuncture, it is undoubtedly a medical system. The fact that TCM's most important classics , the " Huangdi Neijing"("黃帝內經") , is always classified and included in the Taoist canons (" 道蔵 " ) , only reconfirms us this.

Edited April 20, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[zerostao]

not every single western Taoist fits your description of western Taoists

a few that i hang out with agree with you exorcist_1699

and we do often get ridiculed by the western taoists that do fit your description.

we dont care about the ridicule tho.

[Marblehead]

I'm one, whatever "one" is.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

"may be 'adequate' ".... Perhaps?

Adequate implying ' enough to get by on'
( Still peckish)

As opposed to

" No more cake please. I've had enough."
( Replete)

 

I'm stuffed.

 

And I've barely eaten for the last 13 days.

...

Edited April 21, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Rara]

 

 

When they are told that qi exists everywhere , inside or outside of our body, they should then sense the theoretical implication of the above assertion for wherever there is qi, based on the logic of Taoist equation : jing-qi-shen, there is an extra spiritual dimension , shen, co-exists with it , notwithstanding it has nothing to do with the Western sense of being religious .

 

Are you talking about the 4th spatial dimension?

[GrandmasterP]

Me too?

Is that extra- spiritual as in ' beyond spiritual' or 'outside of spiritiual'

OR

'Super- Spiritual' as in more spiritual than we ( westerners) can imagine?

OR

Just an extra 'dimension' that we ( westerners) don't know about?

Edited April 21, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I hope that's not the same thing as being lost in space.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Its there, just outside the corner of your eye, behind the hissing tinnitus and the feeling of the bloods rythm in whatever bodypart is currently resonating it. Outside of our field of perception in the literal sense. It cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be named and so on... Ever mocking.

Maybe its where the Hum comes from?

[Rara]

Its there, just outside the corner of your eye, behind the hissing tinnitus and the feeling of the bloods rythm in whatever bodypart is currently resonating it. Outside of our field of perception in the literal sense. It cannot be seen, cannot be heard, cannot be named and so on... Ever mocking.Maybe its where the Hum comes from?

Yup. So the West has this...in fact, it was described very well by Carl Sagan in "Cosmos". I might be able to find a Youtube link.

 

Edit:

 

Link didn't work from phone. Youtube Carl Sagan 4th dimension lol

Edited April 22, 2014 by Rara

[Marblehead]

Yup. So the West has this...in fact, it was described very well by Carl Sagan in "Cosmos". I might be able to find a Youtube link.

 

Edit:

 

Link didn't work from phone. Youtube Carl Sagan 4th dimension lol

Carl is one of my favorites. I watched the series when it first appeared on PBS and have watched many of the reruns.

[exorcist_1699]

Are you talking about the 4th spatial dimension?

 

4th spatial dimension is some kind of mathematician's creation / discovery , no matter how fantastic & innovative it is, is still something entangled in the realm of human reasoning , ie , still has those limitations of a yin- typed of spirit:

 

 

- A yin-typed spirit embodies passively in a physical body , and then forced to leave it because of aging/ accident/diseases..., that means it doesn't grasp its destiny in its own hands.

 

 

- A yin-typed spirit is always separated from the external world , and subject to those social and cultural forces.

 

At first look, it seems okay to just link and manage the things around us through handling tools, machines and materials; however, a deeper look tells us that , in so doing , we are in fact subject to the social force of division of labor and the power of the authorities. For example , scientists rely on government and university's money in order to do their experiments .., achievement is always the result of collective force or political will ; scientists are divided and assigned to explore the further secrets in their already trivially divided disciplines..etc.

 

Even those claim to be studying the basic stuff of this universe , say physicists Hawking and Feynman, just raise 2 examples, when they got their neurological disease and cancer respectively , they relied on their doctors , experts from another discipline , to give them treatment. From Western point of view, it is nothing wrong ; but from a Taoist point of view, it is nothing reasonable : grasping the basic stuff means we become powerful and self-healing ....; any separated, divided mind , anyhow , can't be said to be full and free .

 

 

In Taoist case, with qi and its spiritual dimension, Shen , grasped in our hands, of course, we don't suffer what the above mentioned .

Edited April 22, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Me too?

Is that extra- spiritual as in ' beyond spiritual' or 'outside of spiritiual'

OR

'Super- Spiritual' as in more spiritual than we ( westerners) can imagine?

OR

Just an extra 'dimension' that we ( westerners) don't know about?

 

As mentioned above, in my reply to Rara's , we , with a qi-nourished Shen , can change our yin-typed mind into a yang one , and make ourselves more active and independent when handling our relation with our body (and the world outside it ) . In Taoist writings , people can read many detailed descriptions and skills about how this yang-Mind, after having fully nourished by jing and qi, being forced to leave its original accommodation , just like a matured fruit has to leave a tree, or a butterfly has to leave its cocoon naturally ...

 

However ,some people still find it frightening , so we can do some kind of job in advance ...

 

As a Taoist saying tells us : "聖人常無心, 以天地之心為心" ( "The Taoist saint is always in no-mind , he lets the Cosmic Mind as his mind " )..of course, such a Mind is free and at ease no matter where it is situated .. ( By the way, the Pre-heavenly school's way , in this sense, is said to be less dangerous than than those of the Wu-Liu's , as the Wu-Liu's way makes people pass more risky steps ..)

 

Of course, such a mind is not of those particle physicists' or of those who pray restlessly many times a day to their God..

Edited April 22, 2014 by exorcist_1699

[GrandmasterP]

"The Taoist saint is always in no-mind , he lets the Cosmic Mind as his mind " )..of course, such a Mind is free and at ease no matter where it is situated .."

 

Sounds good.

 

:-)

Edited April 22, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

... any separated, divided mind ... can't be said to be full and free.

I just wanted to repeat this.

[Rara]

 

As mentioned above, in my reply to Rara's , we , with a qi-nourished Shen , can change our yin-typed mind into a yang one , and make ourselves more active and independent when handling our relation with our body (and the world outside it ) . In Taoist writings , people can read many detailed descriptions and skills about how this yang-Mind, after having fully nourished by jing and qi, being forced to leave its original accommodation , just like a matured fruit has to leave a tree, or a butterfly has to leave its cocoon naturally ...

 

However ,some people still find it frightening , so we can do some kind of job in advance ...

 

As a Taoist saying tells us : "聖人常無心, 以天地之心為心" ( "The Taoist saint is always in no-mind , he lets the Cosmic Mind as his mind " )..of course, such a Mind is free and at ease no matter where it is situated .. ( By the way, the Pre-heavenly school's way , in this sense, is said to be less dangerous than than those of the Wu-Liu's , as the Wu-Liu's way makes people pass more risky steps ..)

 

Of course, such a mind is not of those particle physicists' or of those who pray restlessly many times a day to their God..

Sounds quite like the Buddhist "liberation from suffering" aka enlightenment, also.

 

I guess this is the definition of the Taoist's limitless.

 

In short, by creating divisions, we are putting ourselves in boxes? Yet there is no real reason to do so...

Edited April 23, 2014 by Rara

[GrandmasterP]

Yep.

Same thang just different labels.

Makes sense really.

Someone out in a bamboo forest in China is going to use different language and terms of reference than someone up on a mountain in Tibet or in living a hermitage cum cave in the back end of Egyptian desert.

Somebody once said that any path involving you in having to learn a complete foreign language probably aint the path designed for you.

Edited April 23, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Rara]

Yep.

Same thang just different labels.

Makes sense really.

Someone out in a bamboo forest in China is going to use different language and terms of reference than someone up on a mountain in Tibet or in living a hermitage cum cave in the back end of Egyptian desert.

Somebody once said that any path involving you in having to learn a complete foreign language probably aint the path designed for you.

Cool.

 

Funny because I was when I introduced myself to Taoism, books lead me to "The Vinegar Tasters" painting - which sells Taosim or Lao Tzu at least to have an opposing (and better/more positive view) than the Buddha.

 

But yes, this is not the first time that I have come to realise that both roads appear to lead to the same place.

 

Is the Taoist philosophy that life is sweet and harmonious? Is the Buddhist philosophy that life is suffering and rebirth should be avoided?

 

Yes to both, as a generalisation. But does a Taoist really believe all is wonderful? Does the Buddhist believe all life is so bad? No...because that cannot be real. A Taoist that can't experience sadness must be a robot. A Buddhist that can't experience happiness as a human must be depressed. Lol

[GrandmasterP]

You got that right.

Man there are some seriously depressed people on meditation retreats and no mistake.

I used to say that 'Nobody who was happy ever went on a retreat.'

Then I did one up at Throssel Hole Abbey.

http://www.throssel.org.uk/

They are a cheery bunch up there.

Food's good too and it's cheap enough apart from travel costs as it's right out in the sticks.

Thing is in England if you want to sit with experienced meditators the only Taoist gigs are the BTA ones and quite frankly having been on one I'd not recommend it.

They've only got the one priest and he's a nice enough old chap but no one could ever exactly accuse the lad of being the life and soul of a partay.

Felt a bit like being in a production of the Mikado where only one cast member actually had a costume.

By n large, for meditation gigs; ya gotta go Buddhist here in Blighty cos that's all there is.

Edited April 23, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

Cool.

 

Funny because I was when I introduced myself to Taoism, books lead me to "The Vinegar Tasters" painting - which sells Taosim or Lao Tzu at least to have an opposing (and better/more positive view) than the Buddha.

 

But yes, this is not the first time that I have come to realise that both roads appear to lead to the same place.

 

Is the Taoist philosophy that life is sweet and harmonious? Is the Buddhist philosophy that life is suffering and rebirth should be avoided?

 

Yes to both, as a generalisation. But does a Taoist really believe all is wonderful? Does the Buddhist believe all life is so bad? No...because that cannot be real. A Taoist that can't experience sadness must be a robot. A Buddhist that can't experience happiness as a human must be depressed. Lol

I dont want to speak for anyone but me on this , but , I look at it that it is our dissatisfactions wich drive us to do things to reachieve satisfaction. if youre satisfied you keep your cards and "stick" , you dont draw again unless youre confused.

When nothing is happening, there is no change ,, no "active living" , no marriages or reportcards no selfrecriminations etc..

This doesnt mean you cant have a boost from a nice meal of red curry , or smell roses ,, it just means that the cycles of getting back to that satisfaction recur unless one can... reach for relief from these external pleasantries and gripes.

I figure everyone has felt themselves losing their temper, and you can either,, play that paradigm , swelling the dissonance intentionally in hopes perhaps of popping through to another 'place' ,, or you might dig somewhere else with muscles that have no mass , collect yourself , relieve the heat in your head ..and do the functionally fit thing.

Everyones done both ,, but has everyone looked close at that strange phenomenon of control they had? Does everyone peel that access hatch open wide enough for a camel to walk through ? I think not, one has to find it , and work it out , and apply it fresh .. (Im working on just this myself right now , and Ill tell you ,,,its a nice thing,

[NotVoid]

I have not ever heard of Philosophical Taoism, nor have I ever encountered a taoist who has mentioned something called Philosophical Taoism. Philosophical Taoists must either keep a very low profile, or perhaps they have the power of invisibility... In my own limited experience, taoism includes any of philosophy, rituals, spiritual practices and beliefs, divination, cultivation practices, community service, etc. in varying degrees depending on the exact tradition, and depending on the exact practitioner or follower.

 

Edited April 23, 2014 by NotVoid

[Marblehead]

I have not ever heard of Philosophical Taoism, nor have I ever encountered a taoist who has mentioned something called Philosophical Taoism. Philosophical Taoists must either keep a very low profile, or perhaps they have the power of invisibility... In my own limited experience, taoism includes any of philosophy, rituals, spiritual practices and beliefs, divination, cultivation practices, community service, etc. in varying degrees depending on the exact tradition, and depending on the exact practitioner or follower.

 

The reason, well, there are actually two, I use the word "Philosophical" is that when I first started reading translations of the TTC somewhere in the preface or the introduction the translator specified that they would speak only to the philosophical aspect of Taoism, and, I use it to express the fact that I am not a Religious or Alchemic Taoist.

[GrandmasterP]

Martin Palmer in his introduction to his translation of The Book of Chuang Tzu makes a fair stab at defining Philosophical Taoism past and present.

( Chiang Tzu says Palmer, p. xxx) ... " a thinker who broke through all the conventions of his time and entered new fields of thought."

 

That said Palmer does maintain that Chuang Tzu wasn't actually a Taoist and that Taoism came much later.

 

Here's a link, you can read some of the book free.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Book-Chuang-Penguin-Classics/dp/014045537X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398282534&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Book+of+Chuang+Tzu

Edited April 23, 2014 by GrandmasterP