Philosophical Taoism

[Yascra]

Hello again,

coming back to Marblehead's remark about Philosophical Taoism, I'd like to go into that one a little.

I admit I'm kind of new to Taoism in general, so my spontaneous idea of Philosophical Taoism would be some equivalent to "Buddhist discussion" - more dominated by scholars, maybe some exercise in debating etc. and thereby useful for some basic rational understanding of certain terms, BUT .. well, a more theoretical part of the whole.

 

Curious little me would not be me if I wouldn't get back to some offer to have things explained by people who have dealt with certain topics for some time and thereby gained some insights into them So I hereby bring up the topic of Philosophical Taoism, what it is, and what it is (or might be) good for

 

Looking forward to your thoughts and insights, and don't forget to have fun

 

 

Yascra

[spiraltao]

I look at taoism as the "scientific method" akin to how we learn to solve and answer queries. ...only different, lol, to answer a different kind of query. Fwiw

Edited April 7, 2014 by spiraltao

[ChiDragon]

Hello again,

 

........... and thereby useful for some basic rational understanding of certain terms, BUT .. well, a more theoretical part of the whole.

 

....... thereby gained some insights into them So I hereby bring up the topic of Philosophical Taoism, what it is, and what it is (or might be) good for

 

Looking forward to your thoughts and insights, and don't forget to have fun

 

 

Yascra

 

So, are there any particular terms that you are interested in......???

[silent thunder]

Philosophical Taoism for me is the process of rational reconciliation of my mind state with the experiences within the conditions of nature that are beyond words and thought forms.

 

It will utterly fail to fully explain the experiential processes, yet it has great value on the level of thought-form/rational mind to balance my thinking mind with my emotional/energy body and my experiential awareness.

[Yascra]

 

So, are there any particular terms that you are interested in......???

 

Uhm, no idea oO

Would you like to suggest some?

[Yascra]

Philosophical Taoism for me is the process of rational reconciliation of my mind state with the experiences within the conditions of nature that are beyond words and thought forms.

 

But why would you call that "philosophical" or "Taoist"? I'd say what you're describing is just a process of reflection, which at higher level might improve one's awareness. That's really such a general description that you hardly need to put some religious labels on it, isn't it?

Edited April 7, 2014 by Yascra

[silent thunder]

But why would you call that "philosophical" or "Taoist"? I'd say what you're describing is just a process of reflection, which at higher level might improve one's awareness. That's really such a general description that you hardly need to put some religious labels on it, isn't it?

Yup, I'd call it philosophical as the process of philosophizing is reflective and thought-form based interaction.

 

I'd call it Taoist as there is nothing which can exist beyond or separate from Tao. edit: and it's relating to a process of attempting to reconcile mentally, the natural/conditional processes of the Cosmos.

 

It's philosophical taoism as it relates directly to the process of relating thought forms in the form of words, either as a dialogue in my own mind, or in written text shared with others, or spoken to a friend, in a process of fostering a mental framework of understanding, of the processes of nature/Tao, which are experiential.

Edited April 7, 2014 by silent thunder

[soaring crane]

Philosophical Taoism i.e. pondering what it all means and applying some of your understanding to your daily life, is a Western construct. Possibly started with Benjamin Hoff, but I don't know for certain.

 

There's no judgment in that observation, btw. If it feels good, do it.

 

Qigong = Daoism

[Marblehead]

Excellent inputs so far.

 

Philosophical Taoism, for me, is not just sitting at the computer and talking with others about it, it is my Philosophy of Life.

 

Philosophical Taoism, for me, and yes, I know, others may well disagree with me, are the writings in the Lao Tzu and the Chuang Tzu. These two documents present guidelines for any person by which to live a good life. There are many lessons, especially in the Chuang Tzu, that can be applied to our every-day life which, if used properly, will keep us out of a lot of trouble.

 

Yes, there are a couple places where Lao Tzu went a little mystical and even more where Chuang Tzu did the same. But there primary emphasis was on how to live with as little conflict as possible with others and our environment.

 

Philosophical Taoism does not rely on deities, ceremonies, rituals or any of the other complications of life. It speaks to the Manifest (Yu) aspect of Tao. However, both did also speak to the Mystery (Wu). I personally consider the Yu aspect as how I relate with others and my external world and the Wu aspect as how I intereact with myself.

 

Taoism is my primary philosophy of life. Yes, there are other philosophies mixed in there too because they speak more directly to condition I had to deal with in my life. Others would have needs different from mine.

 

I have been challenged before to define where in the TTC there are any guidelines for living in today's world. That was a simple challenge to respond to. I enjoy speaking directly to our everyday life problems with examples of guides from Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu so we can go there if anyone wishes.

 

 

Anyhow, that's the philosophy. Then we each, depending on our needs, add to that whatever satisfies our needs.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Marblehead

[soaring crane]

that's all good, MH, but I feel you miss out on the most exciting and profound part of the 'philosophy' when you refuse to take part in the physical exercises that manifest it. You're talking about maybe one quarter of what's there, probably much less. And if you feel good with that less-than-a-quarter, then, you know I feel good for you. Happy :-)

 

But I think it would be correct to at least acknowledge that you are in fact intentionally keeping a distance from a huge body of experience and knowledge, and that your Daoist practice only scratches the surface of the real potential.

[Marblehead]

that's all good, MH, but I feel you miss out on the most exciting and profound part of the 'philosophy' when you refuse to take part in the physical exercises that manifest it. You're talking about maybe one quarter of what's there, probably much less. And if you feel good with that less-than-a-quarter, then, you know I feel good for you. Happy :-)

 

But I think it would be correct to at least acknowledge that you are in fact intentionally keeping a distance from a huge body of experience and knowledge, and that your Daoist practice only scratches the surface of the real potential.

Excellent arguement and it has been posed to me before.

 

I have been down those paths. For me they led nowhere. For others they may lead to exactly where they need to be. I will make no judgement calls here.

 

I don't do miracles, I just live a materialistic life. (But that doesn't mean that I do not apply the Three Treasures in my life and my interactions with others.)

[GrandmasterP]

( One) Philosophy as practice here.....

http://www.existentialanalysis.org.uk/assets/articles/Practising_Phenomenology_Martin_Adams.pdf

 

OK that isn't about Taoist Philosophy ' per se' but the thesis holds water.

 

What works for phenomenology-as-praxis (and it does work.. Existential Analyists can get a nice living. I know this), can and must work for Taoism as enacted philosophy too.

Edited April 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I'm the Natural Science guy as I deal with only myself.

[GrandmasterP]

I'm the Natural Science guy as I deal with only myself.

 

Good call.

You'll never get sued by a 'client'.

 

:-)

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Might be just living up to my self-appointed title here but here goes:

 

Wasnt there a bunch of literati chilling out in a garden dealing in poetry, drinking wine, playing the lute, hanging loose and discussing how to follow the dao and its principles that is looked at as the context where daoism goes philosophical, historically speaking? As per usual i cant remember the source exactly, maybe i just dreamed it, but at least i dreamed it in the form of a book.

 

What i clearly remember was that the Tao of Pooh (book i loved at first but have since come to loathe for its chirpy tone and forced and stereotyped brand of childishness) made the distinction between the religious and philosophical "branches" as being defined and in antagonistic relation, but im thinking they might be just two different contexts of discussion, where religious taoism concerns the metaphysical and philosophical is more theoretically oriented, wether it be about "big" issues such as the dynamics of the world or day to day practical mental tools.

 

But wdik, really?

Im still in a place where i guess CT is right, i'm looking at the footprints left in the sand by those who walked before me etc:

following the Tao is at best 60% learning from teachings and 70% personal discovery, Taoism im still skeptical about.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[thelerner]

 

What i clearly remember was that the Tao of Pooh (book .. since come to loathe for its chirpy tone and forced and stereotyped brand of childishness)

You are not alone.

 

 

I wrote the author a letter.

Dear Author,

 

As I write this I am sprinkling my beloved Winnie the Pooh doll w/ gasoline. After reading your book I can no longer stand to look at him.

 

Signed

A Sincerely Disgruntled Reader

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hello again,

 

coming back to Marblehead's remark about Philosophical Taoism, I'd like to go into that one a little.

I admit I'm kind of new to Taoism in general, so my spontaneous idea of Philosophical Taoism would be some equivalent to "Buddhist discussion" - more dominated by scholars, maybe some exercise in debating etc. and thereby useful for some basic rational understanding of certain terms, BUT .. well, a more theoretical part of the whole.

I guess even academia has it's applications somewhere down the line.

 

 

Curious little me would not be me if I wouldn't get back to some offer to have things explained by people who have dealt with certain topics for some time and thereby gained some insights into them So I hereby bring up the topic of Philosophical Taoism, what it is, and what it is (or might be) good for

 

Looking forward to your thoughts and insights, and don't forget to have fun

 

 

Yascra

 

When the highest student hears the path of Dao,

they diligently go forth on the path

When the mediocre student hears the path of Dao,

they appear both present and absent.

When the lowest student hears the path of Dao,

They break into loud laughter -

If they did not laugh, the path would not be necessary.

 

from Dao De Jing, Chapter 41 (my translation)

 

So many people knock philosophy for not being practical, but what is the purpose of philosophy if not to put it into practice and learn from those experiences?

 

Sometimes philosophical Daoism is like having tea with someone 3 times your age. Just enjoy it.

 

Some people will laugh, but that's part of the Path too isn't it?

[Marblehead]

 

Im still in a place where i guess CT is right, i'm looking at the footprints left in the sand by those who walked before me etc:

 

Good thought.

 

When you get to where you need to be you will be able to stop without know why you have stopped, look around and see no footprints, not even your own.

[Marblehead]

So many people knock philosophy for not being practical, but what is the purpose of philosophy if not to put it into practice and learn from those experiences?

 

Sometimes philosophical Daoism is like having tea with someone 3 times your age. Just enjoy it.

 

Some people will laugh, but that's part of the Path too isn't it?

I love that!!!

[Yascra]

Thank you all so much for your postings

And sorry if you find me lacking in discussion, but ... I'm a bit slow at times, and tend to need some time to digest things and go into them.

 

As far as I get it, the word "philosophical" is a bit misleading in this case. My association with "philosophy" is more that dried-up stuff that might have been inspired by cool persons some hundred years ago, maybe Greek or so, but tends to refer to a kind of discussion that's just for the sake of discussing things, without any thought of application. So .. you don't take it that way, I feel?

I think, as far as I've read through it, the Chuang Tzu is absolutely made for practice. You can take it as things to study, though I feel that this is like "studying" poems - you can spend too much additional words on them, but that will just destroy the beauty of it. Things like appreciating aesthetics.

 

So, hmm, still thinking about it, and exercising in practice of course, lol

Thank you so far for some interesting input!

 

Best to you,

Yascra

Edited April 10, 2014 by Yascra

[Apech]

Wang Bi as originator of philosophical Taoism:

 

 

... after Wang Bi, some Chinese literati began to distinguish “philosophical” Daoism (daojia) from “religious” Daoism (daojiao), a distinction that was reinforced by the geographical relocation of the tianshi movement and elite attempts to devalue it as a legitimate extension of classical Daoist thought. This distinction has persisted throughout the history of Chinese thought, but it is an unfortunate one, and moreover one without any basis in the historical practice of Daoist communities (Kirkland, 2). In constructing his interpretive framework, Wang avoided sectarian Daoism and did not take seriously the philosophical roots of tianshi thought. He made no serious attempt to consider how Daoism was practiced before the Han. Thus, Wang’s typology of Daoism laid the groundwork for what is arguably not only the most influential, but also the most systematically misleading, way of thinking about the development of Chinese philosophy.

 

from here

 

http://www.iep.utm.edu/wangbi/

[Rara]

Hello again,

 

coming back to Marblehead's remark about Philosophical Taoism, I'd like to go into that one a little.

I admit I'm kind of new to Taoism in general, so my spontaneous idea of Philosophical Taoism would be some equivalent to "Buddhist discussion" - more dominated by scholars, maybe some exercise in debating etc. and thereby useful for some basic rational understanding of certain terms, BUT .. well, a more theoretical part of the whole.

 

Curious little me would not be me if I wouldn't get back to some offer to have things explained by people who have dealt with certain topics for some time and thereby gained some insights into them So I hereby bring up the topic of Philosophical Taoism, what it is, and what it is (or might be) good for

 

Looking forward to your thoughts and insights, and don't forget to have fun

 

 

Yascra

Some good discussion happening here but I thought I'd chuck in my own view to this first.

 

I would say that it is the philosophy of no philosophy. And those that mention the Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff, I can't recommend that book enough for this study.

 

It's almost a rebellion against what philosophy has become. So read the words of TTC, Chuang Tzu, apply them then discard the words.

 

The key after all is living a fulfilling life, finding the natural way of yourself and the universe.

 

Religious Taoism does do this well, but in a more structured way. I'm not so into it, so I practice philosophical. In other words, I'm a dude with an empty head doing stuff.

[Marblehead]

So .. you don't take it that way, I feel?

You got that shit right!

[Marblehead]

Wang Bi as originator of philosophical Taoism:

It could possibly be argued that the Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove were the originators. (They all, including Wang Bi, live during the same time period.)

[Marblehead]

It's almost a rebellion against what philosophy has become. So read the words of TTC, Chuang Tzu, apply them then discard the words.

 

The key after all is living a fulfilling life, finding the natural way of yourself and the universe.

 

Nice.