Water Tao and Flow

[CloudHands]

Water's often sea as an analogue to the Tao.

Taoist adept has to go up to its Origine.

So he sails up to the source.

So he goes against the flow.

 

Thoughts ?

 

[CloudHands]

Mine is words are tricky. But I hope for deepest considerations.

[soaring crane]

Water's often sea as an analogue to the Tao.

Taoist adept has to go up to its Origine.

So he sails up to the source.

So he goes against the flow.

 

Thoughts ?

 

Very, very thought-provoking, thank you

 

I hope it's ok if I help you out with the English a little:

 

Tao is often seen as synonymous with water

Taoist adepts must go to the origin

So, they sail up to the source

So, they sail against the flow

 

(to avoid sexist-bias in English, it's generally best to utilize the plural form where possible)

 

In chat yesterday evening, it was written, "Does the river experience the flow, or the resistance to the flow?".

 

In other words: Can Tao be realized without the container we put it in? I don't think it's a tremendous failing to be alive and experiencing life, and enjoying it while it lasts

[CloudHands]

"Does the river experience the flow, or the resistance to the flow?".

 

 

In other words: Can Tao be realized without the container we put it in? I don't think it's a tremendous failing to be alive and experiencing life, and enjoying it while it lasts

 

That's very poetic.

 

Of course feel free to correct my English! My signature is only half a joke. I know I make mistake on mistake

[maheosphet]

If Fire tends to rise; to sink is against the flow. if Water tends to sink, for it to rise is against the flow.

 

So how does one go against the flow with anything other than will alone?

 

Will is the the wind in the sails.

 

The wind blows north and the water flows south, either way you can go to arrive at the pole.

[ChiDragon]

The quale of water is closest to Tao.
Taoist adepts are from the origin.
So, they are the source.

Thus they are free flow.

[Stosh]

Water's often sea as an analogue to the Tao.

Taoist adept has to go up to its Origine.

So he sails up to the source.

So he goes against the flow.

 

Thoughts ?

Well ,, the source of rain is the sea , the abyss

or one can notice springs which also arise from the earth.

and on a foggy morning you can see clouds rising from the lakes.

 

So any one might recognize the 'source' is downstream as easily as upstream

from anywhere a man might be.

Water -liquid -seeks the lowest level , a gradient or vector brings it there.

It doesnt jump out of constraints on its own

it reflects the circumstance it is in

Its true to iself and in an eternal attempt to come back to a balance

between its own nature and its situation.

 

That is certainly my personal understanding,

And the reason I have come to that understanding ,

Is that the various sources of poetry , instruction etc

make zero sense if the reverse idea is used as a hypothesis ,

that one is supposed to flow upstream,

this contra normal passage

would be full of difficulties , it would be aggressive , tiring , doomed.

Consider as an example the exalted salmon , then reconcile what it does,

with coming to a peaceful easy yin inspired lifestyle.

Or coming to find the source of ones original being mediated by

a reduction in ones mental gyrations.

 

The obstacle here is the preconception that upstream is the source !

not understanding the cyclic nature of the patterns.

 

And if one derives any meaning from the yin yang concept at all,

its one of cyclical perpetuation , and the 'thermodynamic' approach

toward the most stable state. Going WITH the GRADIENT is natural flow

going against the gradient is struggle.

Energy is put into the system , and the gradient restores toward the lower energy state.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Stosh

[CloudHands]

The quale of water is closest to Tao.

Taoist adepts are from the origin.

So, they are the source.

Thus they are free flow.

 

Still IMO to be from the origin does not make them the source. Even if they become one (for 1 sec or a life long) they have had to go back.

One, 2, 3, 10 000 the idea is there is a development, a push.

[CloudHands]

If Fire tends to rise; to sink is against the flow. if Water tends to sink, for it to rise is against the flow.

 

So how does one go against the flow with anything other than will alone?

 

Will is the the wind in the sails.

 

The wind blows north and the water flows south, either way you can go to arrive at the pole.

 

I think it's way too complicated for me to understand that.

[GrandmasterP]

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud there will be no water; without water, the trees cannot grow; and without trees you cannot make paper. So the cloud is in here. The existence of this page is dependent on the existence of a cloud. Paper and cloud are so close. Let us think of other things, like sunshine. Sunshine is very important because the forest cannot grow without sunshine, and we humans cannot grow without sunshine. So the logger needs sunshine in order to cut the tree, and the tree needs sunshine in order to be a tree. Therefore you can see sunshine in this sheet of paper. And if you look more deeply you see not only the cloud and the sunshine in it, but that everything is here: the wheat that became the bread for the logger to eat, the loggers father the paper is full of everything, the entire cosmos. The presence of this tiny sheet of paper proves the presence of the whole cosmos.

 

( Thich Nhat Hanh).

 

Seemed relevant.

Edited April 9, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[CloudHands]

The obstacle here is the preconception that upstream is the source !

not understanding the cyclic nature of the patterns.

 

If think you go it. Anyway I fully agree with you : springs are sources not The source.

 

T H A N K S

[CloudHands]

If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud there will be no water; without water, the trees cannot grow; and without trees you cannot make paper. So the cloud is in here. The existence of this page is dependent on the existence of a cloud. Paper and cloud are so close. Let us think of other things, like sunshine. Sunshine is very important because the forest cannot grow without sunshine, and we humans cannot grow without sunshine. So the logger needs sunshine in order to cut the tree, and the tree needs sunshine in order to be a tree. Therefore you can see sunshine in this sheet of paper. And if you look more deeply you see not only the cloud and the sunshine in it, but that everything is here: the wheat that became the bread for the logger to eat, the loggers father the paper is full of everything, the entire cosmos. The presence of this tiny sheet of paper proves the presence of the whole cosmos.

 

( Thich Nhat Hanh).

 

Seemed relevant.

 

That's another way to say the same meaning. IMO It corroborates the idea I had firstly (without the ability to break the contradiction) : something like, you cannot put a world in a word.

 

 

(I took a little moment to check the exact definition of spring)

 

And when you look closer at it :

water spring

Web definitions

1. A spring is a component of the hydrosphere. Specifically, it is any natural situation where water flows to the surface of the earth from underground. Thus, a spring is a site where the aquifer surface meets the ground surface.
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_spring

 

 

 

PS : when I was a human science student I have been told something that I still keep in mind : a word is not defined to be true but to be useful.

Edited April 9, 2014 by CloudHands