Wu Wei 'non doing' meditation suggested in TTC? query

[GrandmasterP]

Expert help please.

Can anyone highlight some texts in TTC that directly suggest Wu Wei (non doing) as a meditative practice?

Not so much as 'inferred' but more specifically 'referred'.

I can only read English translations of TTC and the more I do so the more I 'intuit' that I may be missing something.

Many thanks in anticipation.

Edited April 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

A similar discussion happened a while back and basically Wu Wei is spoken to many time but there is no direct mention of meditation in the TTC. In the Chang Tzu, yes.

 

I will remain ready for any of our Chinese readers to inform me that I am wrong about the mention of meditation in the TTC. (I would actually be delighted if anyone can.)

[GrandmasterP]

Thanks MH.

Chang Tzu will do at a pinch guys.

It's references to look up that I'm after.

Edited April 10, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[dawei]

I would start with meditation on Ch. 10 and 16.

[deci belle]

Not doing anything that is calculated to produce happiness produces harmony with the Way, what else would wu wei be?

[Marblehead]

Not doing anything that is calculated to produce happiness produces harmony with the Way, what else would wu wei be?

Exactly. Wu Wei - to be in harmony - not necessarily doing nothing.

[Marblehead]

I would start with meditation on Ch. 10 and 16.

Come on Dawei. Don't tease us. Tell us what you think.

[ChiDragon]

Exactly. Wu Wei - to be in harmony - not necessarily doing nothing.

 

Wu Wei is really not doing anything to disrupt harmony.

[flowing hands]

Expert help please.

Can anyone highlight some texts in TTC that directly suggest Wu Wei (non doing) as a meditative practice?

Not so much as 'inferred' but more specifically 'referred'.

I can only read English translations of TTC and the more I do so the more I 'intuit' that I may be missing something.

Many thanks in anticipation.

My goodness as dawei says chapter 16 is all about it!

[GrandmasterP]

My goodness as dawei says chapter 16 is all about it!

 

Thank you FH

[ChiDragon]

Expert help please.

Can anyone highlight some texts in TTC that directly suggest Wu Wei (non doing) as a meditative practice?

Not so much as 'inferred' but more specifically 'referred'.

I can only read English translations of TTC and the more I do so the more I 'intuit' that I may be missing something.

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

Sorry, no one can highlight some texts in TTC that directly suggest Wu Wei (non doing) as a meditative practice. There is nothing in Chapter 11 nor 16 had said such thing.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Expert help please.

Can anyone highlight some texts in TTC that directly suggest Wu Wei (non doing) as a meditative practice?

Not so much as 'inferred' but more specifically 'referred'.

I can only read English translations of TTC and the more I do so the more I 'intuit' that I may be missing something.

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

you might like this book... many interesting chapters particularly CH. 2 by Roth

 

 

RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL ASPECTS OF THE LAOZI

 

(1) Mark Csikszentmihalyi's "Mysticism and Apophatic Discourse in the Laozi,"

(2) Harold D. Roth's "The Laozi in the Context of Early Daoist Mystical Praxis,"

(3) Zhang Longxi's "Qian Zhongshu on Philosophical and Mystical Paradoxes,"

(4) Isabelle Robinet's "The Diverse Interpretations of the Laozi,"

(5) Robert G. Henrick's "Re-exploring the Analogy of the Dao and the Field,"

(6) Tateno Masami's "A Philosophical Analysis of the Laozi from an Ontological Perspective,"

(7) Bryan W. Van Norden's "Method in the Madness of the Laozi,"

(8) Liu Xiaogan's "An Inquiry into the Core Value of Laozi's Philosophy,"

(9) Philip J. Ivanhoe's "The Concept of de ('Virtue') in the Laozi."

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Religious-Philosohical-Aspects-Chinese-Philosophy/dp/0791441121

 

 

I bought this a good while back for chapter 9 but was a bit disappointed... but the other chapters have proven they also have some good stuff. Overall, worth a read.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here is a translation and commentary I wrote in my PPD back in 2012, on Chapter 16.

 

Some more thoughts on this, especially lines 01-06

01 致虛極,

至虛極也

致Deliver emptiness ultimate

至Arrive at the ultimate of emptiness and

02 守靜篤。

守靜督也

Conserve a calm stillness sincerely

督 Attentively conserve calm stillness

03 萬物並作,

萬物旁作

Myriad creatures, 並at the same time, arising

Myriad creatures, 旁side by side, mutually arising

04 吾以觀復。

吾以觀亓復也

They thereby observe the return (也as well)

05 天物:芸芸

天物雲﹦

Heavens creatures, like many clouds (scattered through the sky)

06 各復歸其根。

各復

各Each one 復returns back to their 根foundations

Each one returns

This very much describes the same process of "true yang arising from the ultimate of yin" and reads as a step by step guide most plainly:

01 Arrive at the ultimate of emptiness and

02 Attentively conserve calm stillness

03 Myriad creatures, 旁side by side, mutually arising

04 They thereby observe the return (也as well) (such as in knowing the great by knowing the small, the rising allows the observance of the return)

05 Heavens creatures, like many clouds (scattered through the sky) (clouds are risen vapour, water vapour. Just as Kidney yin rises to meet the Heart yang)

06 Each one returns back to their foundations

So, emptiness concentration brings one to conserve stillness, at which point there is an arising. This is very much my experience with meditation. After settling into the posture, observing and letting things flow naturally without force or obstruction, there is an arising felt within. This is like clouds of vapour that has risen from the earth. Naturally, this vapour returns and the arising turns to Peaceful Harmony. This is conducive to longevity, harmony of body and mind, and in the Chinese tradition this inner harmony leads to outer societal harmony. In fact, this is largely what is meant by the Sage using Wu Wei to transform society: when the Sage is in inner harmony, he or she affects harmony in a positive way just by their presence in the milieu.

This sounds like merely description of the obvious occurrences during quiet sitting, but just as the first chapter of DDJ says: "they complicate the simple and make the plain become obscured." I feel like this is very much what happens with some descriptions of inner alchemy which speak of "vapour rises from kidneys to meet the heart and then this mixture creates the golden elixer which is then stored in the dantien." This leads many readers to try to make the vapour rise when they merely need to let it rise as that, like vapour rising to heaven, is simply what it does by its nature. Then people want to somehow plunge the elixer into the dantien. As you see here, the elixer simply falls back, "returns" to its foundation of Peaceful Harmony.

This, as Chapter One says, is very simple, yet people's desire makes them complicate the simple until people no longer understand what was so easy to understand in the first place.

This is not to say that I know everything about the traditions of Taoist Nei Gong; just that this teaching is right there in the original text, plain and simple, written for everybody to see, understand and practice, for the benefit of all Humanity, Heaven, and Earth.

[GrandmasterP]

Many thanks for those useful comments.

 

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Here's my translation and commentary for chapter 10 as well (from my PPD). Anything not in brackets is part of the translation (following the title).

 

 

Speaking of Xing and Ming, I'd like to submit my translation of Dao De Jing, Chapter 10, which I believe is a manual on cultivating Ming. Mind you, I am rather convinced that Ming is all but synonymous with the 7 po spirits, while Xing is all but synonymous with the 3 hun spirits.

 

The following are my own observations as a result of my independent studies:

 

Some things to note about Chapter 10 and its relation to the po spirits:

 

- It starts off referring to the po spirit

- The po spirit is connected to the lungs which are responsible for intuition. This chapter is largely about intuition

- "Heaven's gate opens and closes" is said by Heshang Gong to refer to the nostrils with breathing. One can see how this also refers to the lungs, opening and closing, expanding and contracting. This line may also refer to breathing life into the lungs and the po spirits which are our 7 earthly spirits, contrasted to our 3 heavenly hun spirits

- When one fills the lungs with oxygen, there is downward pressure of the cooled blood from the heart to the spleen which replenishes the kidneys, which fires the triple burner. Blood is sent (upwards) to the lungs from the liver.

- The lungs/po spirit have downward (earth spirit) movement. The liver/hun has upward (heavenly spirit) movement.

- The lungs cool the blood, and can relax the heart therapeutically. If "the heart is the emperor of the organs," the lungs are the sages wise counsel to him.

- When life is cherished in this way, the hun spirits are nourished as the liver is healed. Thus, if po is Ming, and hun is Xing, this is to cultivate Ming by which Xing is naturally fulfilled as a matter of course, a la, wu wei approach of non-action applied to Xing.
[- Embryonic breathing is when the breathing has basically stopped and one returns to processing life in the stomach]

 

Consider the above with the following saying from Ma Yu (Ma Danyang) :

"If people can master the path of purity and serenity, that is most excellent. Therefore scripture says, "If people can always be pure and serene, heaven and earth will resort to them."
This "heaven and earth" does not mean the external sky and ground. It refers to the heaven and earth in the body.
Above the solar plexus is called heaven, below the solar plexus is called earth. If the energy of heaven descends and the vessel of earth opens, so that there is harmony above and below, then vitality and energy spontaneously stabilize."

 

 

Now, my translation and commentary:

 

Dao De Jing, Chapter 10

Supporting your fortress of po (魄) embrace the One

Can you do this without letting it flee like a bird from a beast?

Monopolize your chi, sending softness

(Monopolize, take sole posession, also has an image of spinning thread in the character)

Can you be like a newborn child?

(innocence, softness, think of how a newborn child loves and laughs so easily)

Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections

Can you be without this disease?

Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation

(Heshang Gong says that “the nation,” in the Dao De Jing, is a metaphorical signifier of the body. So this would say to pay attention to and send chi to the small things that one notices, weaknesses in their health. This might also apply to intuitive attentiveness)

Can you do this without academic knowledge?

 

Heaven’s gate opens and closes

(Heshang Gong says this refers to the nose while breathing

[meant to add: the relation to the lungs opening and closing, expanding and contracting, can also be seen here. The Heaven trigram (I Ching) and lungs are both metal element. Likely a major influence of, or shared influences from, embryonic breathing practices])

Can your actions be soft?

(perhaps referring to the breath being quiet and relaxed)

Clearly understanding how all sides have come together

Can you do this without academic knowledge?

(Intuition, a function of harmonious po spirit, is able to spontaneously “put two and two together,” at a speed much faster than logic and academic knowledge, to understand what is happening)

 

Create this, nurture this,

(embracing the One, nurturing the po spirit with chi “like spinning thread”)

Create without being possessive

Doing without the assumption of a particular outcome

Leading yet not ruling

(Wu wei, “soft” approach to chi)

 

This is Mysterious De

 

 

 

 

[edit in bold]

 

[manitou]

I've a feeling that this isn't quite what you're looking for, as I'm sure you've already done something like this.

 

But for purposes of this thread, here are my thoughts:

 

To achieve clarity (in order to See things As They Are, unhampered by ego) a good meditation might be to pick one character defect you possess (or just pick a character defect in general and meditate upon the degree to which you have it). Walk around with the awareness for several days - basking in the awareness and the revelation that we really do have character defects, not just other people!) Ask yourself how 'acting to the opposite' would be of value; i.e. if you have a tendency toward selfishness, try giving, or random kindnesses. if you can remember instances where your selfishness may have hurt another, even if it's humiliating to do so - go apologize. Even if it's been years. it will clear out your heart of resentments and allow more joy in.

 

The sage became the sage by Knowing Himself. Jesus said the key was to Know Thyself. The alcoholic or addict cannot truly recover until he has stripped down his personality and examined and changed bad dynamics.

 

This is how the sage that is described in Yutang's translation, Chapter 41: "Qualities of the Taoist":

 

When the highest type of men hear the Tao (truth),

They practice it diligently.

When the mediocre type hear the Tao,

They seem to be aware and yet unaware of it.

When the lowest type hear the Tao,

They break into loud laughter,

If it were not laughted at, it would not be Tao.

 

Therefore there is the established saying:

"Who understands Tao seems dull of comprehension:

Who is advanced in Tao seems to slip backwards:

Who moves on the even Tao (Path) seems to go up and down."

 

Superior virtue appears like a hollow (valley):

Sheer white appears like tarnished;

Great character appears like insufficient;

Solid character appears like infirm;

Pure worth appears like contaminated.

 

Great space..........."

 

So what does it mean to seem 'dull of comprehension?' This would infer acting within wu-wei - to not be the first to sprint out and try and solve a situation, get a promotion, be the first. The sage would hang back with his vision, looking at the true dynamics and not making a move until the action came directly in front of him. At that time, he would take the least amount of action necessary, but it would be the highest action possible for that particular decision. To be dull of comprehension would also mean that we didn't have a tendency to contend with each other on this forum, for example (and everywhere else in the world!) because the Sage would have no inner need to prove his superiority over another. He would know exactly who he was - One with the creative power of the universe.

 

When he says "sheer white appears like tarnished:" I can relate this to my own situation. My relatives here in town are all pretty sure I'm going to a fiery hell because I don't attend church. That's their only criteria for their heaven or hell, it seems. It doesn't seem to overflow into their actions much of the time, or their outlook in general. So I appear tarnished to them, although on the inside I don't feel tarnished at all; I feel like a clean vessel.

 

 

So - as to increasing our wu-wei awareness and effectiveness, I think we have to go through the back door on this and do it through our own character before we can develop the eyes to see with a clear shot down to the center. Then, once the clear shot is seen, we can see the dynamic coming to our own front door and know exactly when and how to act. There is actually no decision to be made. it's made for us because we are now attuned to the Way Things Work.

[ChiDragon]

How about finish off what the intended notion about Chapters 10 and 16 first, before, running off with other confusions....??? Where does say meditation takes place in these two chapters.

Edited June 14, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I feel bound to say this:

 

 

There is nothing in Chapter 10 or Chapter 16 of the TTC that speaks to meditation. To wu wei, yes.

[GrandmasterP]

It was 'inference' as much as anything else MH.

For sure there's no mention of cultivating mediation as such but is wu wei ( amongst all else that it might be) a meditative mindset or not?

Is there 'wu wei' over on one side and meditation over on another side as two different things?

OR

Might wu wei be an aid to or a tool for meditation?

What genuinely puzzles me is that if wu wei is 'doing nothing' then if one is consciously cultivating 'wu wei' might one actively not be cultivating it 'really'.

As in..." By doing something I am NOT doing nothing."

All good comments so far and I confess to be thinking aloud here.

I have no agenda because I have no idea one way or t'other.

Edited June 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

I just returned from feeding the fish and had decided to post to this thread and specifically to my last post.

 

I can speak only from my mind. For me meditation is "empty-minded". Others have different definitions of what meditations is.

 

I suppose it could easily be inferred that some of the things mentioned in Chapter 10 and 16 could be done while meditating.

 

So yes, GMP, wu wei could easily be considered a tool for meditation. In fact, "empty-minded" meditation pretty much requires it.

 

But I will still stand my ground and suggest that Lao Tzu did not speak specifically of meditation.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Marblehead

[GrandmasterP]

 

( My section 1)....

"When I asked Old Shang to be my master and Pai-kao-tzu to be my friend, I decided to work hard to discipline my body and mind. After three years, I was afraid to have notions of right and wrong, and I did not dare to speak words that might offend or please.

It was only then that my master glanced at me and acknowledged my presence.

Five years later, I thought freely of right and wrong and spoke freely of approval or disapproval.

My master gave me a smile. Seven years later, my thoughts came naturally without any conceptions of right and wrong, and words came naturally without any intention of pleasing or offending.

For the first time, my master invited me to sit by his side.

( My section 2)

Nine years later, no matter what came to my mind or what came out of my mouth, there was nothing that was right or wrong, pleasing or offending.

I did not even entertain the idea that Old Shang was my master and Pai-kao-tzu was my friend."

 

(Quoted from Lieh-tzu: A Taoist Guide to Practical Living, Eva Wong, Shambhala, 2001.)

 

There's a sort of progress there between (My section 1 & my section 2) from actively 'doing' in section 1 to not doing in section 2 but the guy needed to go through section 1 to get to section 2so is wu wei 'latent' in section 1 ( kinda like potential energy) and then actual in section 2 ( kinda like kinetic energy but 'doing nothing' energy).

OR

Is it wu wei all the way through both sections?

Edited June 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

That is Chuang Tzu. I don't accept the suggestion that Lieh Tzu was written before Chuang Tzu's time. Best evidence places him (or whoever wrote it) at third century CE. That would be nearly 600 years after Chuang Tzu.

[GrandmasterP]

I've no idea as to dates, it was what the guy was describing as a sort of process that had me thinking about how wu wei might fit or not fit in with meditation.

[Marblehead]

I think your association is valid.

 

(I have not gotten beyond the conception of right and wrong. I guess I wouldn't be invited for tea. Oh well.)

[ChiDragon]

Let me refresh our memory about the definition of "Wu Wei". It is not "non doing" rather "do nothing that is harmful..."

Is the definition applies to meditation...???

Edited June 13, 2014 by ChiDragon