Thusness and His Path.

[Anderson]

1.Are those levels based on his personal experience?

2.If they are has he achieved the power to manipulate the elements?

3.Can those levels be traversed without the need of transmission?

4.If they can be traversed without the need of transmission , direct introduction and help from a guru that would suggest that one can realize lhundrup without the need of any of these aspects and as probably many people already know this would go against of how practitioners are instructed about how dzogchen is usually introduced, practised and realised.

[xabir2005]

1. Yes

2. Not that I know of but anyway pretty irrelevant to his path. Loppon Namdrol: "Hindus also gain control over the four elements, also Arhats can gain control over the four elements. Gaining control over the four elements is mundane siddhi, it is not excellent siddhi, nor is it reserved for Vajrayana and Dzogchen people. However, if someone has not studied in detail, they might think that many mundane siddhis are profound. "
3. Yes. Transmissions are Vajrayana, Dzogchen etc stuff. Thusness does not practice or teach Vajrayana. His only Buddhist teacher is Buddha, not Dzogchen masters.

4. Irrelevant, Thusness is not practicing Vajrayana, Dzogchen, etc, nor does he ever claim to represent Dzogchen/Vajrayana/etc.

Realizing the nature of mind is achieved in all Buddhadharma traditions and does not necessarily require guru, transmission, and so forth. But if you want to practice Vajrayana/Dzogchen/etc then it is necessary.

Edited April 13, 2014 by xabir2005

[GrandmasterP]

You could always ask Malcolm over on DW .

He's always around the Dzogchen section.

Made it quite his own in the five years since he 'qualified'.

Good luck to the lad.

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[xabir2005]

Ask Malcolm about Thusness? lol Malcolm doesn't know Thusness.

[GrandmasterP]

Is it not the same guy?

Well I never!

But Malcolm on DW knows everything there is to know about Dzogchen ( apparently).

 

 

;-)

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[xabir2005]

No, 'Thusness' is this guy who wrote about his seven stages of experience: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

 

Yes, Malcolm knows Dzogchen well and is asked/authorized to teach Dzogchen by his teacher KDL (Kunzang Dechen Lingpa). However he does not formally teach Dzogchen currrently as far as I know.

[GrandmasterP]

Well you live and learn.

Thanks for that.

I always thought that DW ' Dzogchen Malcolm' was ' Lopon' Malcolm Smith touting for custom on DW.

How strange that they are not.

They say exactly the same things.

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[xabir2005]

Malcolm Smith is Lopon Namdrol.

'Thusness' is someone else and has never participated in DW.

Edited April 13, 2014 by xabir2005

[GrandmasterP]

OK I'm lost now.

Who is 'Thusness'?

[xabir2005]

Thusness is John. He is a non-sectarian lay Buddhist practitioner, does not formally teach, but shares his experiences and insights online. I have known him for many years personally.

[GrandmasterP]

OK.

Thanks.

I'll bow out at this point.

To address the OP one would presumably need to have access to John Thusness's writings in order to comment.

Thanks for the Malcolm/ not-Malcolm heads up

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[xabir2005]

Here are some of his writings, for a start:

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/realization-and-experience-and-non-dual.html

[GrandmasterP]

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=Malcolm++Smith

 

 

That's a link on John Thusness's site to the DW convo.

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Sunya]

That's xabirs site, and he does post stuff about Malcolm sometimes :-P

[GrandmasterP]

Man!

Are these guys all related do you think?

Talk about 'self-referential'!

 

 

:-)

Edited April 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Anderson]

1. Yes

2. Not that I know of but anyway pretty irrelevant to his path. Loppon Namdrol: "Hindus also gain control over the four elements, also Arhats can gain control over the four elements. Gaining control over the four elements is mundane siddhi, it is not excellent siddhi, nor is it reserved for Vajrayana and Dzogchen people. However, if someone has not studied in detail, they might think that many mundane siddhis are profound. "

3. Yes. Transmissions are Vajrayana, Dzogchen etc stuff. Thusness does not practice or teach Vajrayana. His only Buddhist teacher is Buddha, not Dzogchen masters.

4. Irrelevant, Thusness is not practicing Vajrayana, Dzogchen, etc, nor does he ever claim to represent Dzogchen/Vajrayana/etc.

 

Realizing the nature of mind is achieved in all Buddhadharma traditions and does not necessarily require guru, transmission, and so forth. But if you want to practice Vajrayana/Dzogchen/etc then it is necessary.

 

 

As far as I know Lhundrup (Presence is Spontaneously Perfected) is only discussed , introduced and actualized in dzogchen via thogal and yangti methodology.

How did he came to know about this aspect without the practice of dzogchen ?

Not even the hindu sages of the past who practiced self-enquiry and such came this far .

[xabir2005]

As far as I know Lhundrup (Presence is Spontaneously Perfected) is only discussed , introduced and actualized in dzogchen via thogal and yangti methodology.

How did he came to know about this aspect without the practice of dzogchen ?

Not even the hindu sages of the past who practiced self-enquiry and such came this far .

 

Well, there are only two possibilities here: 1) that actually many traditions talk about lhungrub, or, 2) many traditions talk about spontaneous perfection but mean different things with the same words. Up to you to decide.

 

In Mahamudra, it is taught this way: "When Kagyupas give instructions, they teach four levels. First, they say that appearance is mind. This establishes that all phenomena are mind. Second, they say that mind is empty. Third, they say that this emptiness is spontaneous presence. This emptiness is not voidness, like something dead, but is spontaneously present. Everything is able to arise, to occur, to appear, and to be known in this emptiness. Finally, they say that spontaneous presence is pointed out as self-liberated. Not only are things liberated by nature, but they do not bind or restrict each other. When we realize the true nature of mind, it is said to be peace and self-liberation. It remains free by its nature and remains free from suffering. Thus, it is said that spontaneous presence is pointed out as self-liberated. The text says, “May we realize the true nature of luminous mind.” Looking at objects, one sees no objects, but just mind points out that appearance is mind. “Looking at mind, there is no mind—it is empty of nature.” points out that mind is empty. “Looking at both of these, clinging to duality is self-liberated.” “May we realize the true nature of luminous mind.” points out that emptiness is spontaneous presence and that spontaneous presence is self-liberated. To be free of effort is called An Aspirational Prayer for Mahamudra - 24 - spontaneous presence. It is whatever is able to arise without very much difficulty at all." - Thrangu Rinpoche

 

In Zen, it is taught that, "According to the teaching of Zen, men and women are essentially perfect and complete, in reality limitless and absolute (this is called "buddha" [hotoke] or "essential buddha-being" [honrai-jôbutsu]). Nevertheless, though being such, they appear phenomenally as imperfect, limited, relative, passing sinful beings (sometimes this is called "ordinary people" [bompu], and sometimes "living beings" [shujô]). Besides, in their natural state of being, human beings cannot know the essence (Buddha nature) of their own perfection and limitless absoluteness." - KUBOTA Ji'un

 

There are many texts through out all Mahayana traditions that talk about the 'complete, perfect' buddha-nature, etc.

 

Generally Self-inquiry leads to I AM realization.

Edited April 13, 2014 by xabir2005

[Sunya]

 

As far as I know Lhundrup (Presence is Spontaneously Perfected) is only discussed , introduced and actualized in dzogchen via thogal and yangti methodology.

How did he came to know about this aspect without the practice of dzogchen ?

Not even the hindu sages of the past who practiced self-enquiry and such came this far .

All Buddhist paths lead at least to realization of clarity. What makes Buddhist paths unique is the emptiness aspect (kadag) Edited April 13, 2014 by Sunya

[xabir2005]

If Lhun Grub is clarity, I don't see any Buddhist tradition that does not lead to realizing lhun grub.

In DC today:

ConradTree wrote:By the way, why did you change your th*g*l code word from lhun grub to clarity?

Most people won't get it.

Malcolm:

because the nature, natural perfection, is clarity.

[xabir2005]

Well that clarifies a lot. I think apart from sectarian polemics, we can see a lot of similarities across different traditions.

http://texts.00.gs/Cycle_of_Day_and_Night,_1.htm

scroll down to p. 14 peculiar understanding of implications of terminology in rDzogs-chen

in dzogchen,
no bo = essence = emptiness = kadag = primordial purity.

ran bzin = nature = luminous clarity = lhun grub = spontaneous presence/spontaneously perfected

thugsje = energy = unobstructedness = inseparably united

 

its split into philosophical term, substance and quality

Edited April 14, 2014 by xabir2005

[Yascra]

Ehm, okay, so xabir2005 is this Thusness and Anderson is one of his fans? oO

What levels please? Can't you give links to the statements you'd like to discuss or do I have to be a fan who knows what guy you're talking about to participate? Is that thread here part of an advertisement program?

 

So many questions ...

Edited April 14, 2014 by Yascra

[Anderson]

 

Well that clarifies a lot. I think apart from sectarian polemics, we can see a lot of similarities across different traditions.

 

http://texts.00.gs/Cycle_of_Day_and_Night,_1.htm

 

scroll down to p. 14 peculiar understanding of implications of terminology in rDzogs-chen

 

 

in dzogchen,

no bo = essence = emptiness = kadag = primordial purity.

ran bzin = nature = luminous clarity = lhun grub = spontaneous presence/spontaneously perfected

thugsje = energy = unobstructedness = inseparably united

 

its split into philosophical term, substance and quality

Here CNNr clarifies it by saying:

 

But before practice , we've said one must have knowledge of the base.And the base whether we are discussing what's spoken of in the semde, longde , in the upadesha, the base is always the same principle.The fundamental base is what we call the state of the mind.Because everybody knows about the mind, and it's very easy to understand since we exist as body voice and mind.The most profound of these would be the mind and from there we begin to understand what we call the nature of the mind.

But then this nature of the mind is a very generic term.It's used in the sutras.It's used in the tantras.It's also used in the dzogchen teachings.

When instead we say, let's call it, the primordial state, already this is a bit different.If we speak of the nature of the mind, we can also define that as the void, emptiness, for example, what's called in the teachings of the sutra , shunyata.

Instead in the dzogchen we speak of self-perfectedness. Self-perfectedness does not simply, merely mean void.So we have to understand that the term primordial state is not precisely and simply identical to what's called the nature of the mind.So the explanation is given of the nature of the mind, of its essence , its nature and its energy.It's said that the essence is void or emptiness, the nature of it is clarity, and its energy is how it works or continues.

 

Ehm, okay, so xabir2005 is this Thusness and Anderson is one of his fans? oO

What levels please? Can't you give links to the statements you'd like to discuss or do I have to be a fan who knows what guy you're talking about to participate? Is that thread here part of an advertisement program?

 

So many questions ...

 

 

I am not Thusness's fan.I am only intrigued by how he sees the spiritual development .

Xabir has known Thusness for quite a number of years and is one of Thusness's friends or disciples , not sure which though..

 

Lots of dzogchen , advaita, mahamudra, etc.. practitioners are familar with Thusness and he is quite well known in these circles.These same people have communicated with him at various times over the years and had followed his advice on various matters related to practice and such.

 

Here is the link to where these 7 stages to enlightenment as seen by Thusness are explained http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.co.uk/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html

Edited April 14, 2014 by Anderson

[Yascra]

Well, if you call it Dzogchen, what do stages have to do with it?

 

And why doesn't this guy know anything about merit and karma if it's about stages to Complete Enlightenment?

Edited April 14, 2014 by Yascra

[xabir2005]

Lots of dzogchen , advaita, mahamudra, etc.. practitioners are familar with Thusness and he is quite well known in these circles.These same people have communicated with him at various times over the years and had followed his advice on various matters related to practice and such.

Zen practitioners, Theravada practitioners too. But Thusness is not 'well known' outside a small group of internet circles. I'm pretty sure if you ask a Dzogchen practitioner outside internet who is 'Thusness' you'll probably get a blank stare.

Edited April 14, 2014 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

Well, if you call it Dzogchen, what do stages have to do with it?

 

And why doesn't this guy know anything about merit and karma if it's about stages to Complete Enlightenment?

As I have said earlier, whatever Thusness wrote may or may not be related to Dzogchen at all. He neither practices nor teach Dzogchen nor claim to represent Dzogchen. It is just his personal experience and practice.

 

Regarding merits, see my next post

Edited April 14, 2014 by xabir2005