Thusness and His Path.

[Anderson]

Well, if you call it Dzogchen, what do stages have to do with it?

 

And why doesn't this guy know anything about merit and karma if it's about stages to Complete Enlightenment?

 

Well at first, to me, at least of one of those stages , it looked similar to dzogchen.

But as Xabir said earlier , Thusness has nothing to do with dzogchen and for example the last stage in his schema- Presence is Spontaneously Perfected-it doesn't have the same meaning as the lhundrup found and introduced in upadesha.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Anderson

[xabir2005]

I wrote in http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/409161 :

I remember years ago Thusness would have me explain the dharma to people from various forums. One time many years ago I thought it would be better if Thusness explained by himself to the others, so I told Thusness why don't you post yourself or something like that. Thusness suddenly appeared serious (he seldom talk in this tone) and asked me so are you going to do this or not? Then he told me the reason (not exact words now but along this line) he had me to do this was because I was lacking in merits to gain enlightenment. And then he said something like... you think I'm joking? Suddenly at that moment I realized why he was always taking the trouble and instructing me to do all those things... when he could have done it himself.

Not long later I had a meditation experience... he informed me it is due to my merits ripening due to explaining the dharma to someone some time ago. He informed me there is a direct causal relation. When asked how does he know that merits is important for experience and realization, he simply says this is his experience. He says it may not make a lot of sense to a dualistic mind, but this is how it (dependent origination) works.

Anyway... here's an article:

(click on URL to read)

[Anderson]

Zen practitioners, Theravada practitioners too. But Thusness is not 'well known' outside a small group of internet circles. I'm pretty sure if you ask a Dzogchen practitioner outside internet who is 'Thusness' you'll probably get a blank stare.

 

yes, of course..

that is , in some internet circles...

[xabir2005]

Well at first, to me, at least of one of those stages , it looked similar to dzogchen.

But as Xabir said earlier , Thusness has nothing to do with dzogchen and for example the last stage in his schema- Presence is Spontaneously Perfected-it doesn't have the same meaning as the lhundrup found and introduced in upadesha.

However if Lhungrub is simply luminous clarity, then it is not really a rare realization. I came to realize luminous clarity even before I realized emptiness. Of course, one must realize its union.

 

 

[Anderson]

However if Lhungrub is simply luminous clarity, then it is not really a rare realization. I came to realize luminous clarity even before I realized emptiness. Of course, one must realize its union.

 

 

If one discovers their nature one will have discovered the indivisibility of kadag and lhundrup.However at this point we cannot say that one has entered yet into furthering or advancing in the direction of lhundrup.My understanding is that one can only start to work with that if there are concrete manifestations on the side of luminosity, i.e the self perfected formations or visions.

The question is how can one work and perfect the clear light of rigpa if there is no base, i.e visions to work with in the first place ?

[xabir2005]

http://nyima108.blogspot.com.au/2006/12/chapter-6-view-of-dzogchen-taught-by.html

Lopon Tenzin Namdak:

Nonetheless, in this Base, which is the Natural State, manifestations spontaneously appear, just as clouds appear in the sky or reflections appear in the mirror. This is its quality of spontaneous manifestation (lhun-grub), and these manifestations represent the creative potentiality (rtsal) of the Natural State. All things, all that we think and perceive as individual sentient beings, are manifestations of the energy (rtsal) of the Natural State. In the end they return again to the Natural State. There is nothing in Samsara or Nirvana that goes beyond the Natural State. It is the primordial Base (ye gzhi) of both Samsara and Nirvana. Everything that appears exists as spontaneous self-perfection (lhun-grub) and yet it is empty. The emptiness side (stong-cha) of everything is called primordial purity (ka-dag) and the clarity side (gsal-cha) is called spontaneous perfection (lhun-grub). And although we differentiate between these two aspects when speaking, in reality they are inseparable (dbyer-med). So there is nothing special here. Everything is present in the Base. The quality of the Natural State is the inseparability of clarity and emptiness (gsal stong dbyer-med). If this is not our view, than that view is not Dzogchen.

[xabir2005]

If one discovers their nature one will have discovered the indivisibility of kadag and lhundrup.However at this point we cannot say that one has entered yet into furthering or advancing in the direction of lhundrup.My understanding is that one can only start to work with that if there are concrete manifestations on the side of luminosity, i.e the self perfected formations or visions.

The question is how can one work and perfect the clear light of rigpa if there is no base, i.e visions to work with in the first place ?

 

First of all, I cannot comment on Dzogchen practices.

 

However, in my experience, after non-dual and anatta, every living experience or display is self-luminous clarity. And it is naturally so... everything is a vivid, alive, self-cognizing display or appearance... there is no need for special visions to experience one's luminosity because in anatta everything is naturally experienced as gapless undivided clarity. It is the result of the realization and actualization of anatta.

[Anderson]

 

First of all, I cannot comment on Dzogchen practices.

 

However, in my experience, after non-dual and anatta, every living experience or display is self-luminous clarity. And it is naturally so... everything is a vivid, alive, self-cognizing display or appearance... there is no need for special visions to experience one's luminosity because in anatta everything is naturally experienced as gapless undivided clarity. It is the result of the realization and actualization of anatta.

Are you referring to full anatta?

As in anatta of subjectivity and objectivity as well ?

As far as i understand anatta of objectivity is a bit more difficult to have insight into and stabilise .

[xabir2005]

Are you referring to full anatta?

As in anatta of subjectivity and objectivity as well ?

As far as i understand anatta of objectivity is a bit more difficult to have insight into and stabilise .

Yes. When I talk about anatta I generally talk about the subjective side. The insight into the emptiness of subject/agent/etc leads to gapless, non-dual, direct, experience of all display as self-luminosity, but seeing the non-arising and illusoriness of the display that leads to further release comes later and that is the 2nd of twofold emptiness.

 

But generally by anatta (firstfold), everything is naturally and quite effortlessly experienced as a non-dual luminous display.

[GrandmasterP]

Ehm, okay, so xabir2005 is this Thusness and Anderson is one of his fans? oO

What levels please? Can't you give links to the statements you'd like to discuss or do I have to be a fan who knows what guy you're talking about to participate? Is that thread here part of an advertisement program?

 

So many questions ...

 

Yep, advertising.

That or two guys been bumped off another forum.

I checked out that ' Thusness' geezer and he seems to be a guru- sort for some.

Leave our chums to chat is the best call I reckon.

This thread reads a bit like one of old D.T. Suzuki's opaque ' forewords' , all polysyllabic list-names and 'in- terms' for 'initiates' only.

Well you two guys..

Enjoy.

[xabir2005]

I have absolutely no idea who Anderson is.

 

Thusness is not a guru

[xabir2005]

If there's any terms I'm using that you aren't sure what it means feel free to ask I'll clarify

[GrandmasterP]

I have absolutely no idea who Anderson is.

 

Thusness is not a guru

 

Brother.

If it walks like a duck.

Quacks like a duck.

And swims like a duck.

 

It's a duck

[asunthatneversets]

 

Brother.If it walks like a duck.Quacks like a duck.And swims like a duck.It's a duck

Well, you're walking, quacking and swimming like you're making ill informed generalizations about someone you don't know... perhaps you are making ill informed generalizations about someone you don't know.

[Sunya]

What's with the hostility GrandmasterP? Thusness is not a guru and isn't selling anything. You're making baseless assumptions. The lingo here is standard dharma talk. If there's something you don't understand, you can simply ask. But coming in here and acting this way is pretty disrespectful

Edited April 16, 2014 by Sunya

[GrandmasterP]

Leave our chums to chat is the best call I reckon.