"unity in diversity" ?

[Marblehead]

Well hello Mr. MH,

If one refers to chapter 25 of the TTC one will find, "Standing alone without change", (John Wu translation)

yet I agree with you about the dynamic side or connection of things which is alluded to through the itineration's of The One, The two, The Three, etc.. (and that first connection point and how it can be or work along with other proceeding connections are also a great mystery!)

Good catch. However, let us look at the last line of that chapter, shall we?

 

Henricks translation:

 

"And the Way models itself on (Tzujan) that which is so on it own."

 

I added the word (Tzujan).

 

So let's look at this: if the Way (Tao) models itself doesn't this imply that it changes? Can it turely stand alone if firstly it is not a thing in itself? Can it truely stand alone if it is influenced by Tzujan? Tzujan is not a thing - it is a concept, spontaneous naturalness as defined by its own essence.

 

Hehehe. And I'm sure you understand that I don't like your usage of the word side.

 

Ah!, the Mysteries. But we can't speak of them. Oh well.

 

The Tao that can be spoken ...

[3bob]

well that side deal is not a separate deal because of the connection, so yes on the side of change there is of course change but in chapter 43 we have, "Only Nothing can enter no-space". (or no-thing which I've always heard as a better term without the connotations of nothing) Anyway, I'd say there is no change in said "no-space" which includes no-time as we know normally know it.

[Marblehead]

I'm having fun here. I hope you are too.

 

(I'm pretty sure I know where you are with the "side" thing but I enjoy these conceptual discussions.)

 

But in Chapter 43;

 

That line you referred to, line two of Henricks' translation:

 

"That which has no substance gets into that which has no space or cracks."

 

"That which has no substance" - water, air, and Chi (energy).

 

"that which has no space or cracks" - any object that we perceive as being solid, i.e., doors, windows, rocks, etc.

 

Line 1 paraphrased: The softest things run roughshod over the firmest things.

 

All these things being spoken to are aspects of Tao Manifested. They are representations of change.

 

Space/time is another concept. There can be no space without time and ther can be no time without space. (That is if we accept the concept of the Big Bang or any other creation theory.) If there ever truely was a Singulity then there had to be a beginning of "things", whatever we want to call it.

 

Therefore the only "time" there was no time or space was when there was Singularity and since nothing existed during that "time" there is no record of it ever being a condition that existed.

 

Without change there would be no space/time. Long ago (and some still hold to it) there was a theory of a static universe, that is, everything is as God created it. But this theory cannot explain "creation and destruction" that can be observed in our everyday life. We have yet to observe any "thing" that is truely static.

[GrandmasterP]

"Does the wind move the prayer flag?

or

Does the prayer flag move the wind?

 

Neither.

Only your mind moves."

 

( Peter Matthiessen- RIP: ' The Snow Leopard')

Edited April 15, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

"Does the wind move the prayer flag?

or

Does the prayer flag move the wind?

 

Neither.

Only your mind moves."

 

( Peter Matthiessen- RIP: ' The Snow Leopard')

Of course, you know that's not true, don't you?

[3bob]

"Therefore the only "time" there was no time or space was when there was Singularity and since nothing existed during that "time" there is no record of it ever being a condition that existed." by MH.

 

The "singularity" or Mystery existed at that so called time which is also now, and only that can know that which is not just a memory of or in the past or future. Yet there is also space and time through The One, The Two, and The Three, etc. powered by said Mystery which is always now. In other words the eternal transformations going on via The One, The Two and The Three, etc.. do so in cycles while the singularity or as is sometimes pointed to as "no-thing" does not cycle or change as all woven things do. (with woven things or forms not being able to enter or return to "no-space" unless transformed back to no-thing; which btw could be insane and or enlightening fun to ponder over... :-)

Edited April 16, 2014 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Okay, I had to read that a second time after allowing my brain to clear because I initally wanted to disagree with you.

 

I do agree with you although the words are strange to my brain. (Likely that is why I initally wanted to disagree with you.)

 

Let's call Mystery "Dark" just for a moment. I watched an episode of a Neil Tyson lecture of the universe last night and he mentioned that 96% of what is thought to be the total universe is Dark Matter and Dark Energy. That means we can ovserve and hopefully understand only 4% of all that is.

 

Yes, I think we could say that Singularity was total Mystery prior to the manifestations of "things". And yes, Mystery is ever-present in the now. And it existed yesterday and it will exist tomorrow.

 

A while back there was a discussion of the "simultaneous arising of Wu and Yu. I don't accept this. My understanding is still that Yu was born out of Wu (the Manifest out of Mystery). All "things" change. Mystery changes when aspects of it become manifest. I doubt that we can really say that Mystery too changes because until it becomes manifest we just can't know.

 

Time and space are linear however I do hold to the concept of cycles as well. But both invove change.

 

To the question of your thread title: yes, I suppose that one could say that there is unity in diversity. Afterall, all is still One. And Tao gave birth to One. I would suppose that One was the beginning of change. There was no change during Singularity.

[Stosh]

There is that saying, "unity in diversity", but I only see that being true if one has attained a transcendent reality that is free of the diverse effects and divisions existent in diversity by living in and acting from a non-dualistic reality! Thus and in effect we have a nice sounding platitude since most "spiritual masters" and or schools are dedicated to maintaining and propagating their own separate divisions and or special interests separate from "unity" thus imo the saying mostly has to be taken conditionally and not literally or unconditionally.

 

Your take?

One cant live and act in a situation of non-dualistic reality,

There is no ONE , which would require something to differentiate oneself from

and there is no living ,

which requires the paradigm of non living as well

and there is no reality vs unreality ,

unreality being an untrue assessment of what is

and there is no acting.

because that requires space and time and change.

 

You can attempt to view the world less 'dualistically' from an emotional standpoint however,

that is to say you can be accepting how things are rather than getting wrapped up in false perceptions

negative assessments and so forth.

IMO

 

If you look at a forest ,you may note every tree is different , ,, therefore , there is no trueness to the idea of the 'trees all being the same"

the grouping of 'trees' is a mental thing which simplies what is actually true. All the things that are over there really are over there, but they arent the same . There is no tree which is the tree, or has some exclusive claim to being a tree. You can mentally include or exclude any thingies from the grouping , but the grouping itself isnt real. both unity and diversity are fake ideas , which you may use for thier functionality but ultimately its still untrue.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Stosh

[3bob]

Okay, I had to read that a second time after allowing my brain to clear because I initally wanted to disagree with you.

 

I do agree with you although the words are strange to my brain. (Likely that is why I initally wanted to disagree with you.)

 

Let's call Mystery "Dark" just for a moment. I watched an episode of a Neil Tyson lecture of the universe last night and he mentioned that 96% of what is thought to be the total universe is Dark Matter and Dark Energy. That means we can ovserve and hopefully understand only 4% of all that is.

 

Yes, I think we could say that Singularity was total Mystery prior to the manifestations of "things". And yes, Mystery is ever-present in the now. And it existed yesterday and it will exist tomorrow.

 

A while back there was a discussion of the "simultaneous arising of Wu and Yu. I don't accept this. My understanding is still that Yu was born out of Wu (the Manifest out of Mystery). All "things" change. Mystery changes when aspects of it become manifest. I doubt that we can really say that Mystery too changes because until it becomes manifest we just can't know.

 

Time and space are linear however I do hold to the concept of cycles as well. But both invove change.

 

To the question of your thread title: yes, I suppose that one could say that there is unity in diversity. Afterall, all is still One. And Tao gave birth to One. I would suppose that One was the beginning of change. There was no change during Singularity.

 

Ah, some agreement going on :-) and that is a good observation about difference in terms or "strange words".

 

I don't know much about Chinese terms but does the saying from chapter one of the TTC have some bearing on what you brought up?

 

"These two flow from the same source, though differently named;

And both are called mysteries.

The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence."

 

About one more year of full time work and I might retire, later gotta run.

Bob

[Marblehead]

Ah, some agreement going on :-) and that is a good observation about difference in terms or "strange words".

 

I don't know much about Chinese terms but does the saying from chapter one of the TTC have some bearing on what you brought up?

 

"These two flow from the same source, though differently named;

And both are called mysteries.

The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence."

 

About one more year of full time work and I might retire, later gotta run.

Bob

Yes, Mystery is from Chapter 1. I really didn't like calling Wu and Yu both "Mystery" so for my own purposes I translated Wu to Mystery and Yu to Manifest. And besides, I feel that the physical (observable) universe can be known. Sure, there are some things we still don't understand but there are people looking for more understanding.

 

And yes, nearly everything I said in the above post relates to Chapter 1, with a few additional thoughts from my own mind.

 

Yea! on your future retirement. Two suggestions: make sure your financial state is where you think you will need it to be, and, make sure you have lots to do to keep yourself busy. You are going to have a lot of additional time and boredom sucks. (I have so many things going on in my life I will never get everything done even if I live to be two hundred years old.)

Edited April 16, 2014 by Marblehead

[3bob]

Yes, Mystery is from Chapter 1. I really didn't like calling Wu and Yu both "Mystery" so for my own purposes I translated Wu to Mystery and Yu to Manifest. And besides, I feel that the physical (observable) universe can be known. Sure, there are some things we still don't understand but there are people looking for more understanding.

 

And yes, nearly everything I said in the above post relates to Chapter 1, with a few additional thoughts from my own mind.

 

Yea! on your future retirement. Two suggestions: make sure your financial state is where you think you will need it to be, and, make sure you have lots to do to keep yourself busy. You are going to have a lot of additional time and boredom sucks. (I have so many things going on in my life I will never get everything done even if I live to be two hundred years old.)

 

I feel that the manifest can be known down to the next splitting of hairs (so to speak) or down to the next sub-atomic particle or whatever the next form of energy that comes to be known is, yet that process of knowing will never completely satisfy, resolve doubts or give a final answer since the next splitting of hairs is always pushing towards a horizon that can never quite be reached in using only such inferred methods... for something "undefined" or of Mystery is needed to finally meet the horizon or in fanciful terms "find the end of the rainbow".

 

She is just out of reach as her touch heals me and that is well.

[Marblehead]

Nice 3bob.

 

Chuang Tzu spoke to this very concept. Basically, and in agreement with you here, that we can study the physical aspects of a thing but as soon as we begin studying, taking it apart, we have lost its essence of completeness, the mystery of what makes it what it is in all its wholeness. Tzujan might be at work here, I never really thought about it. A things spontaneous naturalness of its wholeness. That is something that is essential but yet it is not a part of the thing that can be observed. (Your Mystery in the above post.)