Otis Posted April 15, 2014 Survey of PNSE.pdfDear all, I used to post here regularly, but I have shifted my time toward producing a documentary on the science of consciousness. Greetings to those who remember me. For the doc, most of my interviews thus far have been with neuroscientists and a few philosophers. But of course I was motivated partly from my discussions here, and have interviewed a few Buddhist scientists, and so on. I am going to a consciousness conference in Tucson next week, to net another round of interviews. One of my interviewees will be Dr. Jeffery Martin, a scientist who has been exploring what he calls "Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience" or PNSE for short, which he equates with "enlightenment". He sent me a recent manuscript which describes a comprehensive and multi-year survey he has conducted of people with PNSE, and I realized he was talking about many of the people I have had conversations with here. So I am attaching his paper here, if anyone is curious about a rigorous scientific survey of a large sample size. He writes of a continuum of stages, which reflect major changes in experience of self, of thought, emotion and memory. There's a lot of interesting material in the paper, so I thought I'd share it here. Peace. 12 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted April 15, 2014 Otis, great to see you here. Its been a while and you've been missed. Thanks for the link. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Who.am.i Posted April 16, 2014 Another person you may want to interview is Gary Weber. He was a participant in that study and rated at the higher end of the spectrum which would be location 4. He is also very knowledgeable about the neuroscience aspect. You can find some videos of him on youtube as well as a way to contact him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mike 134 Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) How did the ppl in your study get these states ? Spontaneously ? Triggered by stressful life events ? Doing yoga/meditation ? Drugs ? Kundalini syndrome ? Mental illness ? I'm sure theres a big difference between people who can deliberatly trigger these states and place them in a cultural or spiritual context, as opposed to those who have other experiences that can cloud their perception of this state, like schizophrenics or unwilling kundalini sufferers. Edited April 16, 2014 by mike 134 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brian Posted April 16, 2014 Fascinating, Otis! Thank you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted April 17, 2014 Survey of PNSE.pdfDear all, I used to post here regularly, but I have shifted my time toward producing a documentary on the science of consciousness. Greetings to those who remember me. For the doc, most of my interviews thus far have been with neuroscientists and a few philosophers. But of course I was motivated partly from my discussions here, and have interviewed a few Buddhist scientists, and so on. I am going to a consciousness conference in Tucson next week, to net another round of interviews. One of my interviewees will be Dr. Jeffery Martin, a scientist who has been exploring what he calls "Persistent Non-Symbolic Experience" or PNSE for short, which he equates with "enlightenment". He sent me a recent manuscript which describes a comprehensive and multi-year survey he has conducted of people with PNSE, and I realized he was talking about many of the people I have had conversations with here. So I am attaching his paper here, if anyone is curious about a rigorous scientific survey of a large sample size. He writes of a continuum of stages, which reflect major changes in experience of self, of thought, emotion and memory. There's a lot of interesting material in the paper, so I thought I'd share it here. Peace. Hey Otis!!! Very nice to see you post here! Thanks for sharing this. Warm regards, Steve 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nononothing Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Thanks Otis. I wanted to point out the limitations of the surveyor and some of views of the subjects. Then I realized everyone is correct in their own right. If I say they are wrong, them I become one of them Hesitated, but still, here are my comments. They are just my personal view from my standpoint. This is a disclaimer. LOL First, the survey is from the researcher who has not consciously experienced PNSE. So what he saw are all from his point of view. I, am now at somewhere between Location 2 and 3, see a lot more than he can see, even from his paper. I can see his limitations and biases. It is like seeing through a one-sided mirror/glass. What you see depends on where you are. I guess for people at Location 4, they will say there is no differentiation between see and not see. Therefore my comment is invalid for them. Second, due to comment one, people outside PNSE will believe the research is valid and informative. They may have an impression that being in PNSE is some kind of madness, because our refusal to return and our pleasure we experience are non-existent to them, therefore they mentally refuse to believe. Three, I notices some people got into PNSE through a lots of external help. They go in, have faith in whatever religion, god or master they believe in. But when they drop out of it, if they are not in the right mental state to get external help, or the external help is not available, they can not go back in. Also, those people does not want to stay in PNSE have a fear that they don't know how it comes. The insecurity makes them to bail out. For those who have followed a solid self-reliant path to PNSE, I believe, they will enjoy and stay. Fourth, the paper did not mention the wisdom and world view that PNSE achieves. The reason is that to common people, the wisdoms and world views are either too plain in their eyes, or totally imaginary. Therefore they are of no importance to the research. Also, people followed different paths to achieve PNSE will give totally different wisdom and world views, which add to the difficulty of studying them. For those people who accidentally fell into PNSE, it is even worse, because their wisdom and world view may not have a sound connection to the world we started from. Another reason that wisdom and world view were not covered is because people in PNSE may not care for wisdom and world view. They just enjoy staying there and go with the flow. Only people with deep rooted desire to explore and understand will be willing to provide their wisdom and world view. But due to the frustration caused in trying to communicate with common people, these group of people tend to tell less and less in non-PNSE language. Again, I am at between Location 2 and 3. This is my personal view, expressed in non-PNSE language. If my writing is from my proper heart, everyone should understand them to some degree without revulsion. My 2 cents and thanks you guys. Edited April 18, 2014 by nononothing 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Mar-Vell Posted April 18, 2014 ... Personally I find the "neuroscientific aspect" most distasteful and more than a little worrying. But I am not a materialist. I'm a werewolf of London. How did the ppl in your study get these states? Spontaneously? Triggered by stressful life events? Doing yoga/meditation? Drugs? Kundalini syndrome? Mental illness? All of these and many,many more causes may be co factors in Illumination. I do not list the co factor causes of my sudden Illumination. They are mind blowingly numerous. As the grains of sand on a beach. Infinite, mebbe. Dunno. ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
