The negative and Tao

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I've been thinking a lot over these past few years about how easy it is to say bad is bad and i dont want that, pertaining to for instance behaviour and thought patterns, lazyness, dark aspects of my psychology such as depressions and becoming absorbed in gloomy ideas about life and the world.

 

Early on i got stuck in the idea of saintly behaviour, suppressing aspects of oneself and censoring negative emotions and experiences, wich of course turns out is a very unhealthy way of positioning oneself in relationship to oneself and others.

I was yanging it basically, thinking i was cultivating a balance between light and darkness - what a stupid thing right? Forceful violence made upon myself by me.

 

Nowadays i entertain a broader idea of wholeness, oneness even, slowly coming to accept my negative sides and others negative sides as something good, enjoyable even. Getting angry, harboring darkness and negative thinking, as long as i dont hold on to it, as it is fleeting, empty, not something to judge but to observe and accept as a small part of a complex whole.

 

Basicallly percieving my weaknesses and flaws as useful things, information about now, a counterbalance to all the "good" shit i seem to do. Im not being my best or worst me but just me.

 

But how to reconcile this with all the practices explained as things to do to "better oneself"?

Reading and listening to some people that share my interests i hear so much that falls into the category of stiffly holding on to both goodness and happyness like its the truth about life and the deepest of mysteries, while a lot of it ends up as repression of fantastically useful parts of us.

What happened to the balance? Whats with the happy pill panacea? I love me a boring day being grumpy, it passes and the day before or after will be different. Expecting eternal bliss to be a constant state of mind doesnt mean you'll be smiling 24/7, not to me.

 

Follow the tao and balance ensues. Follow good and bad and negativity are going to be screaming so hard for attention not because they are distractions (not more than goodness at least) but because one is neglecting aspects of oneself and denying them space they cannot vacate, a space no one has any valid business to edit or censor. Im not talking about meditation here, im talking about daily life and following the Tao in every breath, because all else is violent madness.

 

These are all parts of my nature, the nature of everything. Resistance is futile, embracing the muck with the gold seems like the only viable option.

Emotions are empty, thoughts are empty, i am empty, but this does not mean life does not affect me on some levels. All things are impermanent and everything is ever changing, ever churning motion, ever grinding towards entropy and yet continuing.

 

 

What are your thoughts on this and the "negative"?

Edited April 16, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Dragon X]

I will have 2 read this again to really understand it. In the meantime let me just say that a balance between negative and positive, is neither negative or positive. It is a flow which goes frum one aspect to the other and bax again. Like the Small Heavenly Circle which flows up the spine and then down the front of the body. One flow is positive and the other is negative, but neither one is good or bad cause without one you do not have the other.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I will have 2 read this again to really understand it. In the meantime let me just say that a balance between negative and positive, is neither negative or positive. It is a flow which goes frum one aspect to the other and bax again. Like the Small Heavenly Circle which flows up the spine and then down the front of the body. One flow is positive and the other is negative, but neither one is good or bad cause without one you do not have the other.

And here i rewrote it a bit to clarify, making everything even less coherent, sorry

 

Exactly what i was thinking also, good or bad are maybe not useless but irrelevant at most stages.

 

I want o drive the point further but i guess im loosing steam now, but the main topic i wanted to talk about was the daily life, the pitfalls of passing judgement on oneself and assigning values and qualities, all that stuff people do to themselves all the time.

 

For instance:

Someone very wise to relationships once told me relationships (broad sense, not just life partners) are 65% unsolvable conflicts, those conflicts are thresholds and springboards, at least to me, because i view them as the game of yin and yang, the cycle of elements. But this also causes trouble, because sometimes its not good to apply those ideas to something, applying an abstract model that has perhaps some relevance but also very much makes the situation or phase of the relationship into something it isnt. Thats something i struggle with, just because it can be applied it doesnt mean its analogue.

 

If i had to sum it up further id say im taking the long way to advocate formlessness in mind, guess im looking for acknowledgement, maybe just making a fuss while stating the obvious

Edited April 16, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Marblehead]

Chi is the energy of the universe. We each have our personal life energy (Chi). In order to have energy flow there must be both negative and positive, Yin and Yang.

 

Balance is hard to attain so I have rather opted for harmony. Harmony between the polarities of Yin and Yang, negative and positive.

 

Dualities is another tough one. Good and bad; they both exist in reality just as does beautiful and ugly. I didn't like dualities very much so I opted for useless and useful (to me) rather than placing value judgements on things where it would suggest that something good for me would be good for everyone. Useless and useful allow me to place value for myself without placing value for others as well.

 

That old saying about a rich man's garbage is a poor man's treasue still stands.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Marblehead

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Agreed, i still consider harmony a balancing act, balance tends to sound static or permanent when anyone who has balanced an umbrella or a spear on their chin knows it is far from a static exercise

 

I like the utility thing myself, flexible and still clear in its purpose and as you say it doesnt assign value for others.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Bearded Dragon]

Accept everything. Let go of everything. It's easy but progress is slow.

 

If you just concentrate on the idea of letting go (while allowing it to happen by itself) then there isn't anything else to do.

 

Getting stuck is ok also, as long as there is progress. It puts you in a place where there is work to do.

[Dragon X]

I Like the concept of 'useless / useful ' but the difference between Harmony and Balance sumhow eludes me. like sumthing on the edge of my mind and i can just about grab it, but it is out of reach. although am gettin closer to understanding what Rocky Lionmouth meant by negativity.

 

Bearded dragon spoke volumes when he said: ' Accept everything. Let go of everything '

[Stosh]

I've been thinking a lot over these past few years about how easy it is to say bad is bad and i dont want that, pertaining to for instance behaviour and thought patterns, lazyness, dark aspects of my psychology such as depressions and becoming absorbed in gloomy ideas about life and the world.

 

Early on i got stuck in the idea of saintly behaviour, suppressing aspects of oneself and censoring negative emotions and experiences, wich of course turns out is a very unhealthy way of positioning oneself in relationship to oneself and others.

I was yanging it basically, thinking i was cultivating a balance between light and darkness - what a stupid thing right? Forceful violence made upon myself by me.

 

Nowadays i entertain a broader idea of wholeness, oneness even, slowly coming to accept my negative sides and others negative sides as something good, enjoyable even. Getting angry, harboring darkness and negative thinking, as long as i dont hold on to it, as it is fleeting, empty, not something to judge but to observe and accept as a small part of a complex whole.

 

Basicallly percieving my weaknesses and flaws as useful things, information about now, a counterbalance to all the "good" shit i seem to do. Im not being my best or worst me but just me.

 

But how to reconcile this with all the practices explained as things to do to "better oneself"?

Reading and listening to some people that share my interests i hear so much that falls into the category of stiffly holding on to both goodness and happyness like its the truth about life and the deepest of mysteries, while a lot of it ends up as repression of fantastically useful parts of us.

What happened to the balance? Whats with the happy pill panacea? I love me a boring day being grumpy, it passes and the day before or after will be different. Expecting eternal bliss to be a constant state of mind doesnt mean you'll be smiling 24/7, not to me.

 

Follow the tao and balance ensues. Follow good and bad and negativity are going to be screaming so hard for attention not because they are distractions (not more than goodness at least) but because one is neglecting aspects of oneself and denying them space they cannot vacate, a space no one has any valid business to edit or censor. Im not talking about meditation here, im talking about daily life and following the Tao in every breath, because all else is violent madness.

 

These are all parts of my nature, the nature of everything. Resistance is futile, embracing the muck with the gold seems like the only viable option.

Emotions are empty, thoughts are empty, i am empty, but this does not mean life does not affect me on some levels. All things are impermanent and everything is ever changing, ever churning motion, ever grinding towards entropy and yet continuing.

 

 

What are your thoughts on this and the "negative"?

I think youre exactly on target but.. youre being influenced by a cockeyed idea that bettering yourself directly means fitting the ideas of what someone else promotes as "good" or 'negative'. I always like to use my cat as an example , so forgive the implication that you are a cat, but ,, she isnt operating on the moral paradigm at all ! Yet , to an observer, she is a 'good' cat.

Shes pleasant..... and still can do her jobs as a cat , which are to eat mice ,and keep me company.

I repeat for emphasis,, the moral paradigm doesnt facilitate or make happen the 'goodness or negativity' that she displays. She just IS , whatever she is. Like wise , you or I am , whatever we are,, and without the self judgemental paradigm we still would be.

Picture you are alone on an island , does the idea of goodness or badness still apply? I say no, I wouldnt be doing things to be good or nice or mean. Id just be living.

Not living on an actual island , one has to daily come to terms with the additional factor of society though ,right.. but the idea of what good is ,, is still just as fungible, you can do whats expedient, you can be pleasant to retain friends , or you can be mean because you dont want any. Assuming you have some of the normal social instinct of any human , you will trend toward being nice for that reason alone.. thats not phony forced or fabricated. The same goes for some of the other paradigms.

Like I said at the beginning , I think YOU are on target, I think the confusions are someone elses.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Conflict could be viewed as a negative but walking is conflict two opposing forces going in opposite directions, one leg moves forward and the other leg moves back. the harmony is achieved by one body united in moving in a direction. The universe works the same way, without conflict the planets would not be able to move or stay in orbit.

 

The harmony is the unified mind it does not come from looking outside with mental contrivance . Balance and harmony with all things what is your relationship with what is contrived as negative in your life?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I think youre exactly on target but.. youre being influenced by a cockeyed idea that bettering yourself directly means fitting the ideas of what someone else promotes as "good" or 'negative'. I always like to use my cat as an example , so forgive the implication that you are a cat, but ,, she isnt operating on the moral paradigm at all ! Yet , to an observer, she is a 'good' cat.

Shes pleasant..... and still can do her jobs as a cat , which are to eat mice ,and keep me company.

I repeat for emphasis,, the moral paradigm doesnt facilitate or make happen the 'goodness or negativity' that she displays. She just IS , whatever she is. Like wise , you or I am , whatever we are,, and without the self judgemental paradigm we still would be.

Picture you are alone on an island , does the idea of goodness or badness still apply? I say no, I wouldnt be doing things to be good or nice or mean. Id just be living.

Not living on an actual island , one has to daily come to terms with the additional factor of society though ,right.. but the idea of what good is ,, is still just as fungible, you can do whats expedient, you can be pleasant to retain friends , or you can be mean because you dont want any. Assuming you have some of the normal social instinct of any human , you will trend toward being nice for that reason alone.. thats not phony forced or fabricated. The same goes for some of the other paradigms.

Like I said at the beginning , I think YOU are on target, I think the confusions are someone elses.

 

I dont get that a lot but i get it from people who are close to me lately, nice!

I was thinking along similar lines, there's some outside stuff seeping in, and i guess my reaction is one of allergy, guess i have a tendency to internalize and figure the problem is mine, but then again i was raised catholic...

 

I do appreciate the implication of being a cat, i get that a lot and being an admirer and friend of felines in general i take it as a compliment, and the analogy applies, the being and operational mindset is valid and to me desirable in some ways, but then im not a cat so the needs and formulations will differ of course.

I need to ponder the confusions, its always a good thing checking the barometer once in a while, but its also important to recognize confusion as a passing thing and resolve it pragmatically along the way. Less effort, less energy wasted and whatnot.

 

Conflict could be viewed as a negative but walking is conflict two opposing forces going in opposite directions, one leg moves forward and the other leg moves back. the harmony is achieved by one body united in moving in a direction. The universe works the same way, without conflict the planets would not be able to move or stay in orbit.

 

The harmony is the unified mind it does not come from looking outside with mental contrivance . Balance and harmony with all things what is your relationship with what is contrived as negative in your life?

 

Agreed, conflict is important and unavoidable, smoothness in conflict and resolution is one of my goals, appropriate applying of energy to resolve and move on.

 

My relationship to what is contrived as negative is becoming more useful to me, im conflicted and its helpful at this point. Not many judge me negatively and when they discover im a person capable of pettyness and anger they act surprised the weirdos, but mostly im alone with external judgements in my head. I keep collecting them lfor some stupid reason it seems, work in progress and all that.

[deci belle]

Rocky said:

…but the difference between Harmony and Balance sumhow eludes me.

 

There is a classic taoist technical definition of balance and harmony. Balance is one's psychological state before feelings arise; harmony is adapting to the situation after feeling arise.

 

 

…but mostly im alone with external judgements in my head. I keep collecting them lfor some stupid reason it seems, work in progress and all that.

 

Being stuck with external judgements is the result of accruing them. A good exercise is analyzing the mechanism of how this comes about. You will find that you will never come to the end of it as thoughts come from nowhere.

 

You might eventually arrive at the conclusion that the problem probably isn't the judgements themselves~ it's just having them at all!! This realization can be called pacifying your own mind.

 

We all go through these seemingly endless loops, like a stupid song that won't stop playing in our heads.

 

They just are. These are a reality we create and sustain ourselves. The real problem/solution is just forgetting them.

 

Whether one is a buddha or an ignoramus makes no difference. In fact, the only difference between a buddha and an ignoramus is that an ignoramus cannot forget thoughts and feelings as they arise. Why? Because they arise unawares.

 

In order to avoid this, one must be able to see thoughts and feelings as they arise. If one doesn't see thoughts and feelings as they arise, one is simply not being mindful. Following thoughts and feelings arising unawares is the working definition of delusion. Mindfulness is practicing subtle observation of mind 24/7. It's just a subtle continuity of concentrated awareness.

 

There is no higher meditation. Nothing compares to the effective power of self-refinement of simply observing mind at all times. Formal meditation is for those with weak minds— it is nothing more than a temporary expedient until one gains the presence of mind to subtly observe the mind-monkey at all times whether standing, walking sitting or lying down.

 

So, what you are describing as vexing is the fact that you are aware of your delusion— Yay!! That's a good thing!!

 

The only thing one can do (to arrive at buddhahood, see your nature, and clarify yourself) is to practice subtle observation for a long, long time until you eventually arrive at habitually seeing your thoughts and feeling arise as they arise. Why? So you won't follow them at all, much less without knowing it.

[GrandmasterP]

Cracking thread Rocky thanks for starting it and for your pellucid honesty.

Insightful doesn't cut it man, those are transcendent words you wrote there.

I'm the grumpiest of Grandmasters sometimes.

Goes with the territory, still working full time at 62 and hoped to retire at 60, married, arthritic, kids and grandkids with all their joys and sorrows.

Students, some of whom each new academic year seem to present with more and more neediness.

( When did it become acceptable for grown men to tear up weepily over nothing?)

The usual.

Pobody's Nerfect and sometimes it is a stone burden to get my shit together everyday and just cultivate.

When it's flowing nicely I can observe the grumpiness and pain and all and let it slide, ( like it says in the book).

Other times, when I stop I'm in the same place as when I started.

Way I call it to students and myself goes...

" We are always better from cultivating but just sometimes we're no better by cultivating. Just keep cultivating."

Edited April 24, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Stosh]

( When did it become acceptable for grown men to tear up weepily over nothing?)

 

 

I doubt they tear-up over nothing ,GMP

The civilized world is becoming more complex every day more stress less escape from it, even things like video games , which are considered fun , are increasing stress.

Hundreds of facebook friends substitue for actual close friends , the concerns of everyone from pole to pole including dolphins and Al queda now is potentially theirs to share in.

The clarity about ones social role is muddied , the ancestral home has become a relic ,and religion has been taking a beating. ... times have changed sir , and maybe so have you , maybe you have become a ,more richly needed, relief to the young men are needing to express this flood of emotion .

No, I doubt they tear-up over nothing , but I could see how it might burden you as well ,just to see it.

[GrandmasterP]

I blame these 'reality' shows on TV.

Every other person in those spends half the show sobbing over some trifle or another.

It's possibly a generational thing too.

Our two lads ( in their 40s) have the required stiff upper lip but the lads the granddaughters walk out with emote for England or seem to.

I'm not 'down' on sensitivity but for chaps, there's simply a time and a place IMO.

In public isn't necessarily the place.

Times change though.

 

:-)

Edited April 24, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Rocky Lionmouth]

There is a classic taoist technical definition of balance and harmony. Balance is one's psychological state before feelings arise; harmony is adapting to the situation after feeling arise.

 

+1, total keeper!

 

Being stuck with external judgements is the result of accruing them. A good exercise is analyzing the mechanism of how this comes about. You will find that you will never come to the end of it as thoughts come from nowhere.

 

You might eventually arrive at the conclusion that the problem probably isn't the judgements themselves~ it's just having them at all!! This realization can be called pacifying your own mind.

 

We all go through these seemingly endless loops, like a stupid song that won't stop playing in our heads.

 

They just are. These are a reality we create and sustain ourselves. The real problem/solution is just forgetting them.

 

Whether one is a buddha or an ignoramus makes no difference. In fact, the only difference between a buddha and an ignoramus is that an ignoramus cannot forget thoughts and feelings as they arise. Why? Because they arise unawares.

 

In order to avoid this, one must be able to see thoughts and feelings as they arise. If one doesn't see thoughts and feelings as they arise, one is simply not being mindful. Following thoughts and feelings arising unawares is the working definition of delusion. Mindfulness is practicing subtle observation of mind 24/7. It's just a subtle continuity of concentrated awareness.

 

There is no higher meditation. Nothing compares to the effective power of self-refinement of simply observing mind at all times. Formal meditation is for those with weak minds— it is nothing more than a temporary expedient until one gains the presence of mind to subtly observe the mind-monkey at all times whether standing, walking sitting or lying down.

 

So, what you are describing as vexing is the fact that you are aware of your delusion— Yay!! That's a good thing!!

 

The only thing one can do (to arrive at buddhahood, see your nature, and clarify yourself) is to practice subtle observation for a long, long time until you eventually arrive at habitually seeing your thoughts and feeling arise as they arise. Why? So you won't follow them at all, much less without knowing it.

 

Deci, ever so kindly i thank you, i forget noticing the delusions and external is positive, that part is so easy to forget! Yay!

"Take care, step by step, slowly to follow the way, never mind and you can relax" my grandmaster said a few months ago. Also a keeper.

 

Yes, the having the judgements is the problem and regaling them the reins of the whole cart is no way to live, not even surviving.

The tricky part is when emotions come in and strenghten a judgement, being essentially arising and recessing and like thoughts come from nowhere. Thats where its easy to get overpowered by strenght in numbers, a clear clue to knowing my mind is yet fragmented.

On a good day i know that what thoughts and emotions are adding information about me and life, leaving the useless as is - is easier.

 

 

 

Cracking thread Rocky thanks for starting it and for your pellucid honesty.

Insightful doesn't cut it man, those are transcendent words you wrote there.

I'm the grumpiest of Grandmasters sometimes.

Goes with the territory, still working full time at 62 and hoped to retire at 60, married, arthritic, kids and grandkids with all their joys and sorrows.

Students, some of whom each new academic year seem to present with more and more neediness.

( When did it become acceptable for grown men to tear up weepily over nothing?)

The usual.

Pobody's Nerfect and sometimes it is a stone burden to get my shit together everyday and just cultivate.

When it's flowing nicely I can observe the grumpiness and pain and all and let it slide, ( like it says in the book).

Other times, when I stop I'm in the same place as when I started.

Way I call it to students and myself goes...

" We are always better from cultivating but just sometimes we're no better by cultivating. Just keep cultivating."

 

Happy i can add to the sum on here, or detract, you know

About the honesty i just feel there are situations enough everyday that entice me to rein in and not share, not speak about what seems important and how i feel about it. If people dont pick up on it i drop it, but its always worth trying for a "real" subject and be "real" about it (absolute terms used for illustrative purposes). Its frustrating how many people spend so much energy on speaking halfway, speaking not about their experiences and hiccups.

 

Tears are good imo wish i could shed them more but alas i was raised in the old school, but the needyness seem sad.

Maybe its society and the stress, or is it a polarisation that calls for each student to accquire a mental and spiritual swiss army knife? Youre a Grandmaster, at first glance without knowing to well your situation it sounds like a good indicator that they come to you.

 

Well spoken about maintaining the practice, also a keeper!

 

 

 

 

 

[GrandmasterP]

Yep I am a Grandmaster sho nuff.

Got the Diploma and everything.

That Dip plus a pound coin will buy you a cuppa tea in the Refectory at work.

Masters teach.

Grandmasters teach teachers.

Sightly worrying sometimes.

No wonder the world's in the state it is.

Bumbling along with good intentions is about the best any of us can do sometimes.

 

:-)

Edited April 24, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Well, I still consider myself master of my own destiny. Nothing beyond that.