Is Jesus legit in Taoist practice or no? Off topic derail from the JAJ Neigong book thread

[joeblast]

zyd, is this a discussion about JAJ's daoist alchemy or is this a debunk flowing hands thread?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

zyd, is this a discussion about JAJ's daoist alchemy or is this a debunk flowing hands thread?

This is a fair question and I will answer it informally rather than quote everything that I believe supports my approach. If you want I can prepare a more detailed reply with quotes.

 

In so far as 'flowing hands' has been not merely critical, but completely dismissive of this particular work, then to answer such criticism is about Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy. In so far as 'flowing hands' dismisses the traditions of Religious Daoism that are the context in which Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy exists, then this discussion in answering that criticism, is about Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy.

 

Now if someone had come here and said, 'according to my school and its teachings in such and such a book or books', I could examine those books and the history of the school and I could then put them in a constructive juxtaposition with Jerry Alan Johnson's work. Would you be questioning me about that?

 

Now here is the problem, because 'flowing hands' is criticizing Jerry Alan Johnson on what amounts to his own authority, because even though he claims that his teachings, and thus the authority for his criticism, comes from 'immortals, we have only his word that they come from 'immortals', there seems to be no way to answer his criticism except for an examination of himself based on statements made in this thread and others. This is the problem with which I was confronted when I started to address his criticism and this is also the reason why out of fairness both to 'flowing hands' and to the general readers of this thread, I spent a lot of time looking at his posts. He, his posts and his relation with the Huang Lao Xian Shi temples are the only 'text' that I have. In examining them I am examining the basis of his criticism of Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy and therefore my examination of him, his posts and his relation to the Huang Lao Xian Shi temples, is part of this thread. Does that make sense to you?

 

Before this series of posts 'flowing hands' was nothing to me. I saw some of his posts and thought them a little eccentric, but interesting and not much to concern myself about, but when I started to engage him here, I was dismayed by his answers and general attitude. I had seen his posts earlier and thought that the problem was with his respondents and their inability to mount a suitable defense of Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy congruent with his statements about Jesus. I believe that I did that, but in the process what emerged was a general criticism of Religious Daoism which has to be addressed because Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy exist within that context. If you undermine the context, you destroy the content, just as undermining the foundation will collapse the building on which it stands.

 

In any case that is how I look at the matter.

[GrandmasterP]

In fairness to FH zyd he has said " you go your way and I go mine".

That seems to me to be the best way forward.

Nobody is going to agree about everything but everyone has a path to follow.

Dr J does his thang and FH does his.

It's all good.

The more fruit in the orchard the more we have to choose amongst.

Some like apples , some like pears.

It's all fruit.

Edited April 7, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[altiora]

In fairness to FH zyd he has said " you go your way and I go mine".

That seems to me to be the best way forward.

Nobody is going to agree about everything but everyone has a path to follow.

Dr J does his thang and FH does his.

It's all good.

The more fruit in the orchard the more we have to choose amongst.

Some like apples , some like pears.

It's all fruit.

Your sentiment is perfectly correct.

 

But as someone who was watching this from the sidelines, and hasn't commented until now, one is entirely cynical about FH saying "you go your way and I go mine" FH's approach has not been "hey we have different approaches, all is cool". Rather it has been Dr JAJ's approach is not a true path acccording to what the immortals whom I talk to have told me, and you have to take as correct that I do in fact talk to immortals.

 

It has been a depressing feature of TaoBums that extremely doctrinaire people come on, denigrate others, claim that they alone have "true teachings" and then, when challenged, claim that their challengers are being intolerant and closed minded.

 

ZYD is perfectly entitled to challenge the denigration campaign undertaken by FH, and people who come on to TB should be expected to put up evidence and reasoning that can be assessed by others.

Edited April 15, 2014 by altiora

[flowing hands]

Your sentiment is perfectly correct.

 

But as someone who was watching this from the sidelines, and hasn't commented until now, one is entirely cynical about FH saying "you go your way and I go mine" FH's approach has not been "hey we have different approaches, all is cool". Rather it has been Dr JAJ's approach is not a true path acccording to what the immortals whom I talk to have told me, and you have to take as correct that I do in fact talk to immortals.

 

It has been a depressing feature of TaoBums that extremely doctrinaire people come on, denigrate others, claim that they alone have "true teachings" and then, when challenged, claim that their challengers are being intolerant and closed minded.

 

ZYD is perfectly entitled to challenge the denigration campaign undertaken by FH, and people who come on to TB should be expected to put up evidence and reasoning that can be assessed by others.

 

It is also a depressing feature that the only book that I would follow, the DDJ, is seen as an 'extremely doctrinated text' (have you really read this and understood even some of it)? I am just as others are, entitled to question the validity of someone who calls themselves a Daoist, sells many books and DVD's to the general public, but perhaps makes a confession and an important confession, to having Jesus in his heart. Writing books does not mean that what you write is necessarily correct, nor has it been a denigration campaign by me. I f I wanted to denigrate the man I would start systematically looking at all his books and DVD's, which would cost me a small fortune, but a questioning about certain facts to the validity of self cultivation. There are many doctrines and techniques banded about, whether there is any truth in these is another matter. Validation of such techniques comes from people who have a need, who are intense upon themselves and any criticism of their perceived guru or such like is perceived as a threat to that need. Therefore this is how many cults and gurus come about and people are deceived into buying into their teachings. So the pure way is you have to earn teachings by overcoming the self and not by buying DVD's and books that really not many people could use anyway.Selling books and DVD's is a business, but can be perceived as giving information. Information can be given free of course, as I do on this site at times. I also have given help to people who are complete strangers to me for free, therefore I am untouched by the power of corruption and the reasons why I would do things for people.

[BaguaKicksAss]

At a guess, any being working towards spiritual awesomeness and such, *should* have Jesus in their heart, and Buddha, and the Dao, and Qwan Yin, and Tahuti, and Thor, and, and, and.... or perhaps just none, but definitely not close off their heart to any particular one. (note that I am far far away from such ideals and happy with it lol). Does it really matter what name or lack of name we put to such things? If dude prefers a name, so be it. If dude's name is different than the ones I use, oh well, as long as he's unconditionally connected, all is good. I doubt the Jade Emperor is complaining... While I personally feel JAJ could perhaps have better taste in names he uses (), I don't feel he's lacking anything in his practice, nor that it is something I couldn't personally use with my very different names .

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Your sentiment is perfectly correct.

 

But as someone who was watching this from the sidelines, and hasn't commented until now, one is entirely cynical about FH saying "you go your way and I go mine" FH's approach has not been "hey we have different approaches, all is cool". Rather it has been Dr JAJ's approach is not a true path acccording to what the immortals whom I talk to have told me, and you have to take as correct that I do in fact talk to immortals.

 

It has been a depressing feature of TaoBums that extremely doctrinaire people come on, denigrate others, claim that they alone have "true teachings" and then, when challenged, claim that their challengers are being intolerant and closed minded.

 

ZYD is perfectly entitled to challenge the denigration campaign undertaken by FH, and people who come on to TB should be expected to put up evidence and reasoning that can be assessed by others. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Thank you 'altiora', I appreciate your post. I have been very busy the last week to ten days and in the time left over spent a little of it wondering if what I was doing by posting here was really appreciated by anyone. As I have mentioned it takes a lot of time to simply do the searches and take the notes, and work them into a coherent post, much less a series of coherent posts, and I did think about cutting the matter short and I still may, but before I make a decision I want to make somethings clear about 'fairness' and how I see it in the present circumstance.

 

Earlier I said:

 

Now here is the problem, because 'flowing hands' is criticizing Jerry Alan Johnson on what amounts to his own authority, because even though he claims that his teachings, and thus the authority for his criticism, comes from 'immortals, we have only his word that they come from 'immortals', there seems to be no way to answer his criticism except for an examination of himself based on statements made in this thread and others. This is the problem with which I was confronted when I started to address his criticism and this is also the reason why out of fairness both to 'flowing hands' and to the general readers of this thread, I spent a lot of time looking at his posts. He, his posts and his relation with the Huang Lao Xian Shi temples are the only 'text' that I have. In examining them I am examining the basis of his criticism of Jerry Alan Johnson's Daoist alchemy and therefore my examination of him, his posts and his relation to the Huang Lao Xian Shi temples, is part of this thread. Does that make sense to you?

 

fairness . . . to 'flowing hands': Means doing everything that I can to understand his position, which means reading his posts and trying to understand his world view and how his posts as an account of his teachings and methods fit into his world view. I think that I understand that clearly now. If I need to give an account of it I will do so in his own words, based on his posts here and draw as reasonable a picture from them as I can.

 

Fairness . . . to the general readers of this thread: This means that think that the readers of this thread should know that his behavior here is typical and in point of fact he had been posting on three other treads related to another schools teaching in which he had derailed thread by dismissing the schools teachings, imperiously affirming his own knowledge as being the only true knowledge and that one of these threads was one that he started specifically to accuse this school of attacking him magically. All of this wasted the time and energy of people who were on those threads, some of whom cross posted here and had already been dealing with him for months. I suspect that they already found him:

 

'very boring' and were 'simply not interested' in more of the same from him, nor do they 'have the time' to waste on more posts from him. Phrases which I chose with a particular reference to:

 

I'm afraid not to be rude but I'm finding your referencing books very boring to make out that somehow they are far better than anything I could possibly known or say, or my Immortal teachers also very disrespectful. So here ends the monologue, I'm simply not interested, nor do I have the time, in arguing with you OK.

 

Did fairness to these people stop him from insisting that they listen to him again?

 

I wrote the above the other day before this series of responses began, and here he is back again showing that he cannot even read, but is still as contentious as ever and repeating the same critique of Jerry Alan Johnson that he has before. When does 'flowing hands' unfairness to other people stop?

[joeblast]

ffs just rename this thread and pit it, because beyond page 1 or 2 it hasnt been anything but pissing up a wall and none of it has been about JAJ's DA.

 

annoying only because ya click back here to perhaps maybe possibly read something about the topic, and.....nope.

Edited April 16, 2014 by joeblast

[GrandmasterP]

Yep.

It's become the 'have a pop at FH club house'

Membership 1

To the Pit with it and good riddance.

:-)

Edited April 16, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Apech]

Maybe part of this could be split out because I'm interested in JAJ.

[dawei]

Maybe part of this could be split out because I'm interested in JAJ.

 

Yes, I just thought about that... but given 24 pages it will take some work to split out appropriately.

 

For now, let's comment back to the original topic.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I figure the discussion can continue over here. I'll move a post or 3 over too later on.

[dawei]

Except the split needs to occur starting back at page 4... oh well... this is a start but I would make two viable threads and not a pitted one.

[BaguaKicksAss]

There are some really good posts about page 15 or so too lol.

 

I was just taking care of *future* posts mostly .

 

There are lotsa staff here with move privileges (don't use split it won't work to get them to this thread), if anyone wants to sweep up a little .

 

Hmmm, move out of the pit, sure. Someone had mentioned pit so I figured... glad to move it over to Taoist though?

[flowing hands]

What is Dao xin how does it pertain to Daoist alchemy? Why is Dao xin so important to Daoist alchemy? There are many references to Daoist alchemy in the DDJ. This is where we should take our starting point. Does Li Erh say have Jesus or anyone else in your heart? What is the basis of Daoist alchemy? My posts here were about this and not the denigrade of a single person, although the OP was about JA Johnson. It would not matter who it was I am concerned with the understanding of what is going on. Daoism is very different to any other belief system; I was brought up to believe in nothing and was left to believe what I had in my heart. When I read the DDJ and Chuang Tzu, I knew that I was a Daoist. I knew I was something different even as a small child. Now I want people to really understand Daoism, part of the reason why I am alive is to just do that. If people knew just this and practiced it in their everyday lives, then the world would be a much better place. I don't mean in a hippy way, I mean balanced. So why is it wrong for a Daoist cultivator in terms of alchemy and as a Daoist to have Jesus or anyone else in their hearts?

[liminal_luke]

All traditions pick up cultural clutter: rules and regulations about how things should get done and who should do them that aren't strictly necessary for spiritual advancement. Read this book and not that one. Follow your teacher and no one else. Flowing Hands maintains that taoists shouldn't have Jesus in their hearts, and, as far as his corner of the taoist universe goes, I'm sure he's right.

 

That kind of thinking doesn't sit well with me though. Guess I don't want anybody to tell me who to bring into my heart and who to kick out. Truth is, I'm not all that concerned with being a taoist. I just know that there's more to this world than meets the eye. There's more to being a human being than getting a good job, finding a life partner, having kids. And I'm on taobums to figure out what that something more is for me.

 

Right now I feel mostly aligned with taoism. I like working with energy, feeling the warmth in my dan tien, learning about internal alchemy. But if Jesus has something to teach me I'll gladly set a plate for him at my inner table too.

 

Liminal

Edited April 17, 2014 by liminal_luke

[GrandmasterP]

If someone wishes to include Jesus in their cultivation then where's the harm?

Those Orthodox Christian Hesychasts ( for one example) are as close to Taoist hermits as makes no difference.

Anybody who knows TTC and reading the Philokalia will see the similarities.

John Main the monk who started the Christian meditation tradition and wrote all those books was a Taoist in all but name and he celebrated ' Mass' every day of his working life until his death.

Here's absolutely no point anyone getting sniffy and claiming...

"That's NOT proper Taoism! THIS is proper Taoism!"

How could anyone know for sure and who, beyond teenaged years; would be so arrogant as to dismiss the faith-path choice of another?

One mountain, lots of paths up the mountain.

Edited April 17, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[flowing hands]

I think I'll dip out of here, I'm wasting my time. But let me tell you the number of Daoists in the Heavens outnumber any other belief system that you could possibly think of by 100:1. Have whatever you fancy in your hearts its entirely up to you. All paths do not lead us all to the ultimate goal, a silly saying designed to encompass all beliefs as if they all are valid. A mountain has many misleading paths and some are life threatening and lead you off to a precipice. The right path one might never find, for one is blinded by other things that one may carry in one's mind or heart. So what would one won't to carry in their hearts on such a difficult and self deluding journey?

I don't think there is anyone who can tell who is in the Heavens and who is not? So how does one know who has made it and who has not? Immortals were made by a deep knowledge that required a person to have gone through many cycles of training until they had discovered their Dao xin. Such knowledge first of all involved the overcoming of the self. This may take many lifetimes realistically.

[GrandmasterP]

I wasn't implying that you were getting sniffy Sifu FH.

Your posts are a like a treasure house containing great wealth of wisdom.

Edited April 17, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[thelerner]

All traditions pick up cultural clutter: rules and regulations about how things should get done and who should do them that aren't strictly necessary for spiritual advancement.

Right now I feel mostly aligned with taoism. I like working with energy, feeling the warmth in my dan tien, learning about internal alchemy. But if Jesus has something to teach me I'll gladly set a plate for him at my inner table too.

Nice.

[SonOfTheGods]

ffs just rename this thread and pit it, because beyond page 1 or 2 it hasnt been anything but pissing up a wall and none of it has been about JAJ's DA.

 

annoying only because ya click back here to perhaps maybe possibly read something about the topic, and.....nope.

Is there a split thread? link?

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

The Nazarene was a great Saint.

 

But I don't want anything to do with his legacy.

...

[BaguaKicksAss]

Is there a split thread? link?

 

This is the split thread, from JAJ book review thread .

[balance.]

How horribly narrow to think that somehow Jesus is different from any number of taoist immortals--- or further, that somehow being a daoist precludes or prevents having a resonance with JC. Has your practice opened you up to nothing? Buddha is God is Allah is Lu Dongbin et al. All of these various individuated presences spring from the exact same source. * There is no difference *

 

Once a practitioner escapes birth and rebirth, all is seen as equal. If you have the awareness to connect with a Highest Divine Source---- ask. Simple.

 

...... and to say Daoists outnumber all others? Please. (Keeping in mind that I *do* perform aspects of daoist neigung)

 

The path is not so very narrow. The path is narrow only in the mind of a scholar. Any competent set of practices will open you (heart!) to the simple and fundamental truth that all rivers flow into the same ocean. Some rivers meander--- some rivers are fast and direct. Personal resonance determines the rest.

 

Spirit is spirit is spirit---- whether it takes the face of an Ancestor, a Highest Divine Aspect of Nature, some daoist immortal, lower astral forms or even JC--- it makes no difference.

 

Purify your intention.

 

 

 

 

all the best.

 

 

 

 

balance.

 

 

 

 

ps--- I recognize that this was blunt. apologies.

Edited April 18, 2014 by balance.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I was always under the impression that taoism left room for incorporating whatever suits and is practical to the taoist. I was a taoist long before i left catholicism and while having abandoned what is imo an endless and forcibly sad funeral of a pretty sharp and spiritually connected person where two other pretty hateful dudes have hogged the microphone for ever (Paul and Peter), theres nothing to say beyond doubt that "this guy has no place withint his context and never should he have it".

 

Is it traditional? Nope.

Is it advisable on a broad level? Maybe not but thats so far beside the point it doesnt even matter, the personal context is fundamental and absolute in matters of faith and choosing how to express it. If you can happily do Big J and the Supreme Ultimate together good on you! More really is more sometimes.

 

A fung shui master i know says "no mixing of deities on the altar" because its disrespectful to all the deities present, i buy that, to each their own and give to God whats Gods and Guan Gong whats his.

But climbing high horses isnt a good way to gain knowledge or your peers ear, at least not among taoists.

 

 

There is always a valid point about the industry of selling teachings promising, but everybody has got to eat and no one forced anyone to buy something. If the material is dissapointing take it up with the author, ask for your money back or whatever.

If a certain practice didnt give you superpowers maybe a wider angle of perspective is needed?

 

 

Ps. If a practice unexpectedly DID give you superpowers, would you please share and make it short and extremely simplified?

Edited April 18, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth