Confusion around "Kunlun."

[Leon Frost]

Hi all! I sincerely hope this is the right forum - I wasn't quite sure where a topic like this belonged.

I recently purchased the Primordial Alchemist book, which details the "Kunlun" system. I really find myself resonating with Max Christensen's vibes, and the practices he's bundled into his system are fascinating. With that being said though, I did some searching online and of course I inevitably found some old threads around here. It seems like there was a great deal of controversy about the system a few years back, especially around Sifu Lum's side of Max's practice.

I keep seeing folks talking about something called Red Phoenix, as if it's essential to make Max's system work. What is it, and why would he not include it in the book if it's so essential? I truly do not have the money to learn this key practice at a seminar or something, I'm a self-employed college student and literally cannot spare anything from my budget. Is there no way for me to get the most out of these teachings?

I saw one thread where someone mentioned that the Maoshan Golden Flower practice in the book is basically the same thing, but several people disagreed. I'm just not sure what to believe, or what I should do with this system. Can anyone offer advice?

[liminal_luke]

Hi Leon,

 

The "Red Phoenix" practice has never been included in a book. If you can't go to a seminar you could probably get it from Max, or another teacher, through a skype session. I wouldn't sweat it much though. Jenny Lamb who taught Max Kunlun--though she calls it Yi Gong--doesn't teach red phoenix as part of the standard practice, and advised me not to do it. In any case, you can go very far without it.

 

Liminal

[NotVoid]

Hi Leon Frost. From my own perspective, the obvious problem with Max Christensen's stuff is there does not seem to be any clear info about who his teachers were, and what specific practices he learned from any specific teacher (there are other 'teachers' like this here in the West as well). That is a real problem. For example, some people who posted here before stated that a teacher named Jenny Lamb located in the US stated that she actually taught Max Christensen practices that he incorporated into his 'kunlun' stuff. Some people seem to just say whatever, but it should be a concern if a teacher can't clearly explain who all their teachers are, and what specific practices they learned from each individual teacher. It should be raising red flags if they can't or won't do that. Some people seem to take the attitude that it doesn't matter, as long as the teacher seems to know something, but in such a situation you really just don't know what you are learning and what all has just been made up, and where everything is coming from. Also, if indications are that a 'teacher' is not being fully honest and forthcoming about what they are teaching and what their real background is, then who knows what all else they are not being honest about? Does Max Christensen provide specific details in his new book where and when he is supposed to have learned his practices, and from which specific teachers? Last time I looked on his website there was no details at all about this. Just my own view.

Edited April 21, 2014 by NotVoid

[Leon Frost]

NotVoid - From what I can tell, Max's system is a combination of Jenny Lamb's Yi Gong (Kunlun posture) and Andrew Lum's Maoshan stuff (Golden Flower, and Red Phoenix, whatever that is). It doesn't seem like Max made any effort to hide that fact, though I may just be unusually skilled at digging up information with Google.

Liminal - I looked up Skype sessions, and even those are out of my price range, which is incredibly frustrating. My understanding from searching the old threads is that Max took Red Phoenix which he learned from Sifu Lum, and blended it with Jenny Lamb's Yi Gong. There are a lot of claims from someone named Mantra, who talked as if he represented Max, that this pairing was essentially a reuniting of two divided Taoist sects that were meant to be used together, or something. How can that be, though? I don't understand how the book can claim to be a self-contained system while not including something that is supposedly the "other half" of this "quick quick" path.

Another thing: It sounds like it's nothing THAT special - I keep seeing people who've learned it but later dropped the Kunlun system refer to it as being no different from your typical third eye breathing exercises or something, but all the Kunlun folks who've learned it and are still practicing are like, "Yeah, this is a really big deal, instant enlightenment experiences." It's very confusing and I'm just not sure what to think.

[balance.]

I've been romping with kunlun for 3 years.

 

It opened me up to Spirit.

 

Don't worry about haters/doubters.

 

Kunlun is beautiful (as is Max). An unorthodox system to be sure. That's what it seems like most are attracted/repelled by. Since when though does an unorthodox system mean it's energy has been crippled? I've heard stories from Max and Jenny Lamb talking about schools leaking energy. Sometimes change is the best thing.

 

I'm an apprentice--- would be happy to teach you Red Phoenix if you have the inclination, Leon.

 

 

Red Phoenix is far more than just a 3rd eye practice. Pursued with proper intention, the Red Phoenix suite will systematically activate all dormant potential within the brain and bring about a dissolution of form. Very easy to get side-tracked with it. Too directly stimulates the development of siddhis without realigning yourself with virtue/highest-divine purpose---- this one of the challenges this practice presents.

 

 

What I understand is that the practices presented in the book can lead (dependent upon intention) to full and perfect awakening (in addition to formless-form. Red Phoenix offers a massive boost in growth and will manifest potentiality differently. Red Dragon is a another practice Max teaches that can be practiced instead of kunlun or red phoenix, or can be practiced in concert with all--- depending on your resonance. The quality of Red Dragon is much different than Red Phoenix. Something for everyone.

 

That said, the beauty of a competent system (like kunlun), is that after a certain point, your own awareness has developed to such a degree that you can receive perfect practices directly from Highest Divine Spirits and Ancestors (or demons, if that's your thing). Kunlun gives you the opportunity to truly follow your own path. If you're concerned about spending some money to learn Red Phoenix (which, even if you discard it, will accelerate your growth) , then just pursue the new book with deep sincerity and patience and allow yourself to open up to One. You'll receive all you need. Pretty incredible actually. I'm not aware of another teacher who encourages this sort of free-spirited departure. Beautiful.

 

 

feel free to PM me.

 

 

 

All the best,

 

 

 

balance.

Edited April 21, 2014 by balance.

[liminal_luke]

Opps...Bubbles kind offer made my plea for patience moot.

Edited April 21, 2014 by liminal_luke

[joeblast]

red dragon palm is not a beginner practice, I would not advise a beginner to do it. not very many people have been shown it, at any rate. 'ee said entire armies have been slaughtered in the past just for that knowledge, treat it carefully and with respect.

 

given that max's stuff is of a relatively 'quick' nature, make sure you put in your time with fundamentals and make it at minimum the second half of every session you do with this stuff. its every bit as important as the active stuff.

[soaring crane]

Opps...Bubbles kind offer made my plea for patience moot.

 

you had me scrolling up and down looking for a post by bubbles!

[liminal_luke]

oh gosh....sorry...meant balance Liminal

[Leon Frost]

Balance - PM'd you

Joeblast - is Red Dragon Palm the same thing as the Red Dragon that Balance mentioned? Anyway, I don't know if this matters at all, but while I am a beginner to Kunlun, I'm not a beginner to energy work in general, especially fundamentals. I've been at this for the better part of seven years, covering everything from Dr. Yang's embryonic breathing and Chia's healing sounds/inner smile, to Zhan Zhuang, to Chunyi Lin's first couple levels of SFQ. I've just never been as "drawn" to a system as I am to Kunlun.

Does that make any kind of difference, or is this really something that I need to be in the Kunlun system for a while before attempting?

Edited April 21, 2014 by Leon Frost

[NotVoid]

NotVoid - From what I can tell, Max's system is a combination of Jenny Lamb's Yi Gong (Kunlun posture) and Andrew Lum's Maoshan stuff (Golden Flower, and Red Phoenix, whatever that is). It doesn't seem like Max made any effort to hide that fact, though I may just be unusually skilled at digging up information with Google.

No, I read his original book on Kunlun years ago, and the impression he gave in the book was Kunlun was some esoteric practice which he learned in his travels to the far east from some unmentioned teacher, from what I recall. I can't tell from what you wrote if Max Christensen is now saying somewhere where he actually learned his 'kunlun' from, or was this from other people's comments? At any rate, Jenny Lamb has not taught something called 'kunlun' that I know of. She has been teaching something she calls yigong however. I was just mentioning this for something to be aware of.

 

The blurb on Max's current website about Kunlun which states:

"It is from his travels, diverse experiences, and in-depth studies, that Max draws on and presents time tested, esoteric root practices, through his KUNLUN NEI GUNG™ System."

I am pretty sure his old Kunlun book and old websites did not mention 'Kunlun' as being some synthesis by Max of various practices and teachers, but I no longer have my copy of Max's old Kunlun book from quite a few years ago (maybe 7 or 8 years ago I think). What does Max say about the origins of 'Kunlun' in his new Kunlun book? Does he mention learning practices from Jenny Lamb?

Edited April 21, 2014 by NotVoid

[joeblast]

Joeblast - is Red Dragon Palm the same thing as the Red Dragon that Balance mentioned? Anyway, I don't know if this matters at all, but while I am a beginner to Kunlun, I'm not a beginner to energy work in general, especially fundamentals. I've been at this for the better part of seven years, covering everything from Dr. Yang's embryonic breathing and Chia's healing sounds/inner smile, to Zhan Zhuang, to Chunyi Lin's first couple levels of SFQ. I've just never been as "drawn" to a system as I am to Kunlun.

 

Does that make any kind of difference, or is this really something that I need to be in the Kunlun system for a while before attempting?

yes.

...I dont really know ya, so it is tough to say what practices are appropriate for you. but it generally isnt something taught. I dont know why anyone even mentioned it

 

No, I read his original book on Kunlun years ago, and the impression he gave in the book was Kunlun was some esoteric practice which he learned in his travels to the far east from some unmentioned teacher, from what I recall. I can't tell from what you wrote if Max Christensen is now saying somewhere where he actually learned his 'kunlun' from, or was this from other people's comments? At any rate, Jenny Lamb has not taught something called 'kunlun' that I know of. She has been teaching something she calls yigong however. I was just mentioning this for something to be aware of, but I know many people prefer to ignore such things. To each their own...

thought the jenny connection was common knowledge! yigong and 'kunlun 1' are basically the same thing, max refers to his whole system of stuff as kunlun but generally when people say kunlun they are talking about the yigong shaking medicine practice. of course it augments the practice a bit if you are combining red phoenix or the golden flower stuff, that is basically what is meant when it is said 'yigong is not kunlun.' the fundamentals of the shaking medicine practice are the same.

[theurgy]

Humbly, I hasten to point out that when taking up a practice, look at the teacher and consider that by practicing their teaching, you will become them. By their fruit you will know them.

[balance.]

..... I dont know why anyone even mentioned it

 

It's fun to know up front that kunlun has such vast variety. It's also fun to know that persistence and dedication to a single path has certain rewards beyond the more predictable opening/refining/dissolving.

 

Anddd Red Dragon is being taught to the apprentices these days.

 

 

all the best

 

 

 

balance.

Edited April 21, 2014 by balance.

[balance.]

Humbly, I hasten to point out that when taking up a practice, look at the teacher and consider that by practicing their teaching, you will become them. By their fruit you will know them.

 

 

Max discourages this at just about every possible opportunity. You sell yourself short when you practice to become someone else.

 

 

 

 

all the best.

 

 

 

balance.

Edited April 21, 2014 by balance.

[theurgy]

Respectfully, a teacher must embody the results that a student wishes to achieve. The teacher must be able to demonstrate that the teaching is effective. Effective how? It delivers the sought for results. That is what I meant. This is what all ancient traditions teach. Max didn't teach you this??? Newer Age schools teach a placebo effect in which the student "does whatever feels groovy" with no standard to aim for until they must use the 4 words of true power: WHERE ARE THE RESULTS?

 

I trust you see the difference.

[joeblast]

It's fun to know up front that kunlun has such vast variety. It's also fun to know that persistence and dedication to a single path has certain rewards beyond the more predictable opening/refining/dissolving.

 

Anddd Red Dragon is being taught to the apprentices these days.

 

 

all the best

 

 

 

balance.

heh...I'm just going by what he said when...but that was 5, 6 years ago or more.

 

Respectfully, a teacher must embody the results that a student wishes to achieve. The teacher must be able to demonstrate that the teaching is effective. Effective how? It delivers the sought for results. That is what I meant. This is what all ancient traditions teach. Max didn't teach you this??? Newer Age schools teach a placebo effect in which the student "does whatever feels groovy" with no standard to aim for until they must use the 4 words of true power: WHERE ARE THE RESULTS?

 

I trust you see the difference.

cmon dude not this discussion again, its been had plenty of times over, if you want to read about it use the forum search function.

Edited April 21, 2014 by joeblast

[NotVoid]

thought the jenny connection was common knowledge! yigong and 'kunlun 1' are basically the same thing, max refers to his whole system of stuff as kunlun but generally when people say kunlun they are talking about the yigong shaking medicine practice. of course it augments the practice a bit if you are combining red phoenix or the golden flower stuff, that is basically what is meant when it is said 'yigong is not kunlun.' the fundamentals of the shaking medicine practice are the same.

No, it was not known at all until some students of Jenny Lamb posted here some years ago that Jenny Lamb stated that she taught Max practices which he teaches in his 'kunlun' practice. Max never mentioned learning Kunlun stuff from Jenny Lamb in his old book or on his old websites, nor even mentioned her as a teacher back then either that I ever saw. My impression from his old book and old websites a number of years ago was that he was presenting Kunlun as some esoteric system which he learned in the far east from some unmentioned teacher. Now he seems to be presenting Kunlun on his latest website as a system which he synthesized from various practices and teachers. That's the last I will say about it as if someone really wants to know more about this they can research some of the old posts here from years ago about Max and his 'kunlun' system, and how Kunlun was being presented back then...

Edited April 21, 2014 by NotVoid

[soaring crane]

My impression from his old book and old websites a number of years ago was that he was presenting Kunlun as some esoteric system which he learned in the far east from some unmentioned teacher.

 

That's how I remember it, too. Those were the days ... Kunloonies etc ...

 

I think, though, going back to your original reply, it's also possible to get too hung up on the 'authenticity' and 'lineage' angle. And many, many, many people simply do not live in a location that affords them access to a choice of instructors. I think the wrong advice in that situation is, 'do nothing, don't even start'.

[theurgy]

cmon dude not this discussion again, its been had plenty of times over, if you want to read about it use the forum search function.

 

Joe Blast, my comments were meant for the OP to consider as a student of an esoteric path. It is our responsibility to remind others to reflect on these important points from time to time as members of the community. I would say this to anyone who feels "strangely drawn" to any system of practice whether it be Wicca or Tenaga Dalam. My best to you.

[NotVoid]

That's how I remember it, too. Those were the days ... Kunloonies etc ...

I think, though, going back to your original reply, it's also possible to get too hung up on the 'authenticity' and 'lineage' angle. And many, many, many people simply do not live in a location that affords them access to a choice of instructors. I think the wrong advice in that situation is, 'do nothing, don't even start'.

I didn't say anything about not doing anything or not starting however. There are many 'teachers' out there.

[joeblast]

No, it was not known at all until ...

hm...ok join date, about the time I got into the picture here. like a candy store, this place was, when I got here

[Aetherous]

.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Aetherous

[deci belle]

Whether it is the same or not makes no bit of difference.

 

All the systems in the world are one— not in the sense of jumbling them all together as some people try to do.

 

They are all keyed to the natural evolution based on the immaterial essential order of one's unborn aware nature.

 

The buddha said, refer everything to the self.

 

In your studies and practical undertakings in response to situations, do not waiver from this dictum. Also do not pick and choose your way through various traditions. Just learn to discern the "eye" of the application of any system's method relative to your own situation.

 

The highest expression of wisdom is through symbolism to describe reality. Do not take anything literally.

[ralis]

There are a few here that imply that they have received the 'Red Dragon Palm' practice and at the same time may be warning or discouraging others from having it. That is the practice I am missing. I have the Kunlun/Red Phoenix and if anyone has the 'Red Dragon Palm' and are willing to share it you can PM me.