A year of Agrippa :)

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I'm glad you will finally be posting with us again!

[Larxene]

Hello BKA,

 

I was directed to this thread by Michael Sternbach because I am interested in reading and interpreting Aggripa's Of Occult Philosophy. I have some questions. How is this online book club thing gonna work?

 

Also, where is the link to your blog where you implied you are posting information about Aggripa?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Larxene

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hello BKA,

 

I was directed to this thread by Michael Sternbach because I am interested in reading and interpreting Aggripa's Of Occult Philosophy. I have some questions. How is this online book club thing gonna work?

 

Also, where is the link to your blog where you implied you are posting information about Aggripa?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Larxene

Thanks for reminding me about this. I got distracted with school again.

 

Basically I'm going to post chapters, and we can all discuss them .

 

I'm also posting them at: http://enochian.org/ayearofagrippa/ but haven't advertised it yet, so no traffic yet.

 

I'm glad that folks are encouraging others to read what is nearly the only good book on magic .

Edited November 18, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[Michael Sternbach]

Larxene,

 

 

Welcome the Tao Bums! Glad that you followed my invitation. You won't regret it! (I believe.)

 

 

BKA,

 

Thanks for coming back to Agrippa.

 

Stupidly, your link doesn't function from where I am. I get a blank page.

[Larxene]

Hello again, BKA.

 

Okay, that sounds about right to me. Don't worry, it happens. I am planning to create a blog specifically for interpreting Agrippa, but I am also being bogged down by school.

 

The link turned up a blank page for me as well.

 

 

 

Michael,

 

We'll see what happens.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Larxene

[BaguaKicksAss]

Just copy / paste instead of click the link.

 

Please, please, please, don't use modern magic ideas/thinking to try to interpret Agrippa; Tyson tried this and it didn't come out so well.

 

More coming soon .

[Michael Sternbach]

Just copy / paste instead of click the link.

 

Nice web-page, BKA. "Athena" is another alter ego of yours? The Goddess of War and Art - why am I not surprised...

 

Please, please, please, don't use modern magic ideas/thinking to try to interpret Agrippa; Tyson tried this and it didn't come out so well.

 

Larxene, you should know that BKA is somewhat of a purist. Therefore I think you and her will get along well with each other...

 

BKA, I will try to empty my cup for Agrippa. Make sure you fill it with delicious wine!

 

More coming soon .

 

I'm looking forward to it.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Nice web-page, BKA. "Athena" is another alter ego of yours? The Goddess of War and Art - why am I not surprised...

 

 

Larxene, you should know that BKA is somewhat of a purist. Therefore I think you and her will get along well with each other...

 

BKA, I will try to empty my cup for Agrippa. Make sure you fill it with delicious wine!

 

 

I'm looking forward to it.

 

Athena is my actual born with name. Yep, interesting life .

 

Check out my cast seals! I like to show off my latest projects lol.

 

Me a traditionalist, are you sure? We are not even talking post ancient Babylonia and Egypt here.... (though pre Levi, Rudd and Mathers, so all is good )

Edited November 18, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[BaguaKicksAss]

There, that should be enough to get us started on some pretty interesting conversation

[Michael Sternbach]

 

Athena is my actual born with name. Yep, interesting life .

I had a dog called Athena. She was so lovely... when she barked it reminded me of the terrible battle cry of the Goddess when she was born from her father's head.

 

Athena was also the muse or (some might say) HGA of Giordano Bruno, another Renaissance magus; he was strongly influenced by Agrippa, who was his hero.

 

Check out my cast seals! I like to show off my latest projects lol.

 

Me a traditionalist, are you sure? We are not even talking post ancient Babylonia and Egypt here.... (though pre Levi, Rudd and Mathers, so all is good )

You don't need to be THAT traditional in order to be traditional. You CAN even be a Golden Dawn traditionalist, btw (I know that you are not). But let's not get sidetracked and start fighting about the better system... let's see what we can learn from Agrippa.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[BaguaKicksAss]

I had a dog called Athena. She was so lovely... when she barked it reminded me of the terrible battle cry of the Goddess when she was born from her father's head.

 

Athena was also the muse or (some might say) HGA of Giordano Bruno, a Renaissance magician; who was strongly influenced by Agrippa.

 

 

 

You don't need to be THAT traditional in order to be traditional. You CAN even be a Golden Dawn traditionalist, btw (I know that you are not). But let's not get sidetracked and start fighting about the better system... let's see what we can learn from Agrippa.

 

I had a cat named Hekate once. Then at another point in time a dog named Loki. They both sort of fit their names.

 

But, but, the GD went and changed the perfectly good Agrippa and Enochian to fit their system of correspondences :'(

 

Onto chapters 1-3!

[Nungali]

I think that you may be reading both too much and too little into this, too much of later ages and not enough of traditional cosmology. The rays are like the rays of sunlight, but the very fact that they are light rays should lead us to ask, "What was light to Agrippa?", not project into him what we think they might be. To jump ahead and little I will quote one of my favorite passages from Chapter XLIX (49), "Of Light, etc.":

 

 

This is no mere mechanical ray, this is a ray of understanding and intelligence, in the modern theory, information. I would recommend Chapter 2 of Physics in Mind, by Werner Loewenstein, "Information Arrows" for an interesting and relevant modern discussion.

 

 

 

Edit: I accidentally cut off part of the quote about Celestial body, added: ", where it becomes a store of life, and an effectuall propagation, even a visible splendor"

 

 

Okay thanks ... I can see it that way as far as 'celestial rays' go ... I will defer the questions about 'magical sympathies' to later.

 

<stacks another book on in tray ... stack starts to wobble ... >

 

 

[Larxene]

Looks like this will get messy.

 

Michael, I am kinda purist, but it's more like, I want to examine one perspective in great depth before moving to the next perspective. It is like trying to understand a person. From the outside in, we can "understand" what a person is going through, but we may not sympathise with him. To symphathise with him, we need move into his shoes, to "be" like him, to take on his mindset and values. This approach, both outside in and inside out, is richer and more comprehensive.

 

But yeah, I think we'll get along.

 

 

 

Hey BKA,

 

I wish I can participate, but right now I'm tied to some $%^&ing assignments. It's partly my fault for leaving them until the last minute...

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Larxene

[BaguaKicksAss]

Looks like this will get messy.

 

Michael, I am kinda purist, but it's more like, I want to examine one perspective in great depth before moving to the next perspective. It is like trying to understand a person. From the outside in, we can "understand" what a person is going through, but we may not sympathise with him. To symphathise with him, we need move into his shoes, to "be" like him, to take on his mindset and values. This approach, both outside in and inside out, is richer and more comprehensive.

 

But yeah, I think we'll get along.

 

 

 

Hey BKA,

 

I wish I can participate, but right now I'm tied to some $%^&ing assignments. It's partly my fault for leaving them until the last minute...

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Larxene

 

TTBs is just perfect for those little breaks you need when your mind is about to melt... .

 

Just join in when you can.

 

I'm currently doing work during the day, then night classes learning to make better jewelry, so Agrippa is getting a bit neglected until December. Only 2 more weeks!!!!

 

With your approach mentioned above, looks like you may be reading, and researching Agrippa for quite some time (though at a guess, you already have been for at least awhile).

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

Should organize those....

 

 

[BaguaKicksAss]

 

I agree these can get a little messy, but it could be good in order to answer people's concern's as one goes along. I don't know if you have read the tread from the beginning, but I was at great pains to make clear the context of Christianity at the time Agrippa wrote as part of my analysis of his letter to the reader.

 

To symphathise with him, we need move into his shoes, to "be" like him, to take on his mindset and values.: I completely agree with this approach and it reminded me of something I posted earlier:

 

 

To understand Agrippa in his own terms is a laudable goal and the only real way to benefit from the Three Books of Occult Philosophy, it is a lot of work, but absolutely worth the effort.

 

I'm on page 7 so far, and having trouble figuring out what I should be looking for and getting out of it? Help?

 

PS, have to love TTBs members who provide links to free books when recommending them!

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I'm on page 7 so far, and having trouble figuring out what I should be looking for and getting out of it? Help?

 

PS, have to love TTBs members who provide links to free books when recommending them!

 

I always try to provide online references where possible, this sometimes means doing a lot of searching just to make a post. For older books online copies are available, but for newer ones there is always the library and the miracle of inter-library loan. I have sometimes been amazed at one can get through inter-library loan. Once you have it you can scan it and then study it at your leisure.

 

Now that you are posting more chapters, I will comment more. I do hope that you will provide some of your own insights, as I think that your experience and perspective is valuable.

 

I will probably start with a discussion of how to read Agrippa and then an analysis of the larger structure. I will also give some references to the worldview of the time to understand how Agrippa saw the world in which he lived. This is particularly important because the "Scientific Revolution", of which I have indicated Agrippa's The Vanity and and Uncertainty of Arts and Sciences, indirectly contributed is one of the biggest blocks to our understanding of Agrippa and how to apply his rules of magic practically. I will also do a detailed analysis of the elements and have some recommended reading from older sources about them.

 

I am now doing some teaching locally and related to that I am going back and revising teaching material that I wrote in 1986-87, which was a very good (if I do say so myself), practical introduction to Natural Magic and explains in detail what Agrippa taught and how it affects practice. These are lecture outlines, but I am thinking of writing them out as essays and I might post them here online, though if I do it will probably be in my Personal Practice section.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I always try to provide online references where possible, this sometimes means doing a lot of searching just to make a post. For older books online copies are available, but for newer ones there is always the library and the miracle of inter-library loan. I have sometimes been amazed at one can get through inter-library loan. Once you have it you can scan it and then study it at your leisure.

 

Now that you are posting more chapters, I will comment more. I do hope that you will provide some of your own insights, as I think that your experience and perspective is valuable.

 

I will probably start with a discussion of how to read Agrippa and then an analysis of the larger structure. I will also give some references to the worldview of the time to understand how Agrippa saw the world in which he lived. This is particularly important because the "Scientific Revolution", of which I have indicated Agrippa's The Vanity and and Uncertainty of Arts and Sciences, indirectly contributed is one of the biggest blocks to our understanding of Agrippa and how to apply his rules of magic practically. I will also do a detailed analysis of the elements and have some recommended reading from older sources about them.

 

I am now doing some teaching locally and related to that I am going back and revising teaching material that I wrote in 1986-87, which was a very good (if I do say so myself), practical introduction to Natural Magic and explains in detail what Agrippa taught and how it affects practice. These are lecture outlines, but I am thinking of writing them out as essays and I might post them here online, though if I do it will probably be in my Personal Practice section.

 

Oh! I would most definitely be interested in such writings from you. Will check your PPF regularly.

 

Also thank you muchly for sharing your how to see things from Agrippa's perspective writings.

[Larxene]

Hi Zhong,

 

I was thinking along the lines of creating a "table of contents" kind of thing at the first page of this thread. It would contain links to the posts regarding specific chapters, and links to specific questions and concepts that are pivotal in learning Agrippa. If you have gone through 30+ pages threads, you will be able to see why this is a good system to have. When we click the title of a thread, it always sends us to the first page, so we can access the table of contents right away. We may also not know which page has the information we need without a table of contents.

 

There are two problems with this. First is that BKA doesn't have the time to do it. The second is that the "table of contents" can get incredibly long, which can be tedious to go through as well, but not as tedious as going through pages of threads.

 

I guess I am just a little OCD about organisation.

 

 

 

BKA,

 

This is how I will participate. I will break every chapter down into smaller quotes, and write my interpretations on it. For the sake of keeping things organised, I will post my interpretation on a separate post. Then you guys can comment about whether I am right or wrong, stuff like that.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Larxene

Edited November 20, 2014 by Larxene

[Nungali]

I always try to provide online references where possible, ..... These are lecture outlines, but I am thinking of writing them out as essays and I might post them here online, though if I do it will probably be in my Personal Practice section.

 

 

Thanks Donald . Would you mind putting a notice in this thread if/when you post related stuff in your PPs ?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Hi Zhong,

 

I was thinking along the lines of creating a "table of contents" kind of thing at the first page of this thread. It would contain links to the posts regarding specific chapters, and links to specific questions and concepts that are pivotal in learning Agrippa. If you have gone through 30+ pages threads, you will be able to see why this is a good system to have. When we click the title of a thread, it always sends us to the first page, so we can access the table of contents right away. We may also not know which page has the information we need without a table of contents.

 

There are two problems with this. First is that BKA doesn't have the time to do it. The second is that the "table of contents" can get incredibly long, which can be tedious to go through as well, but not as tedious as going through pages of threads.

 

I guess I am just a little OCD about organisation.

 

Yes, I have already posted similar ideas in response to one person who used to post here and lot and get very huffy when the line of posts was desecrated by criticism, my response was here:

 

I don't see any reason to set up a system in which a public posting becomes private property. A little editing goes a long way. Aside from the fact that hand offs in topic can be handled very well, my thread Theurgia-Goetia, on Gods and Demons (http://thetaobums.com/topic/27141-theurgia-goetia-on-gods-and-demons/?p=405616]) being an excellent example of a good hand off from Apech's thread on Ancient Egyptian symbols. Obviously such matters can be handled well if both parties are willing to act respectfully toward each other.

 

As for what I said about a little editing, if someone comments in a way that leads to a serious loss of the topic, one can go to ones own comments, post a reference to the most intelligent 'on topic' post after yours and to your own response to that. In that way one can skirt around some of the borderline 'nutcases' who sometimes derail otherwise interesting topics and so can readers who are interested in following the discussion, at the same time legitimate criticism can also be maintained and people can have a chance to read it for themselves. Since what the 'nutcases' want most is attention, when they don't get it and see that they are being worked around, maybe they will let it drop, if they continue, then maybe the Mods should step in.

 

You don't have to respond to everyone who posts. It is always possible to just ignore what someone has said, none of us have enough time to answer every question or comment thrown at us, especially if we consider it not relevant. We can say so and move on.

 

Part of my reason for joining this forum was to get intelligent feedback on some ideas. If all I wanted to do was to post 'original content' without any dissent, there are other places to do that, and if I wanted to control the comments, so that only ones that agreed with me and praised my deep and wonderful insights appeared, there are places to do that also, but I don't think that the Tao Bums should become one of them.

 

You might find the referenced thread Theugia-Goetia, On Gods and Demons of interest in itself.

 

Okay, I'll stop here. I still have school work to do . Comments will be appreciated.

 

 

 

Larxene

 

Comments coming, believe me, just ask Nungali about how it is possible to get some interesting sub-conversations going.

 

First comment:

 

The tricky term here is "vertue". What does this refer to? My interpretation is "essence" or "nature" or "quality", but it is not a dictionary definition. (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Dictionary definition:

 

6.

effective force; power or potency:

"a charm with the virtue of removing warts." (Dictionary.com, virtue, definition 6)

 

Essence, nature and quality are also correct and when we get to Chapter 10, where Agrippa starts his discussion of Occult Virtues we can talk about Formal Causes and their relevance to the Occult Philosophy.

 

And now for something completely different:

 

Thanks Donald . Would you mind putting a notice in this thread if/when you post related stuff in your PPs ?

 

I was going to do this anyway, but now that you mention it, yes that will be my policy.

 

On their way, an index to my posts on the Roman Catholic Church in Agrippa's time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Changed "there" to "their" in the last line.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Zhongyongdaoist

[Nungali]

Ask me what ???

 

actually I gotta dash off too .... now !

[BaguaKicksAss]

I could always do a seperate sub forum for each chapter if i were to do all this in my ppf, however not as many folks read/keep up with the ppfs.

 

I like the table of contents linking idea, if anyone would like to do parts of it i can edit the Forst post to include it. (or y'all can wait about a month when i have no classes

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I could always do a seperate sub forum for each chapter if i were to do all this in my ppf, however not as many folks read/keep up with the ppfs. I like the table of contents linking idea, if anyone would like to do parts of it i can edit the Forst post to include it. (or y'all can wait about a month when i have no classes

 

I'll have some more specific suggestions about how an index could be organized when I discuss the larger structure of the text, there are certain key chapters which could be put in an index in the first post and then a sub-index could be created when that chapter is reached.

 

Right now links to the major posts on the development of the development of the Roman Catholic Church from its roots in Hellenistic Judaism on, these are referenced in historical order not the order of the posts:

 

Hellenistic Roots of the Judeo/Greek synthesis of Patristic Christianity

 

It should be noted that even the Gospels and the letters of Paul, the supposed bedrock of Christianity, there is considerable evidence of Greek influenced thinking.

 

The Roman Catholic Church of 1500

 

My introductory post and rationale for looking at the History of the Roman Church

 

Prisca Theologica One

 

Which is immediately followed by:

 

Prisca Theologica Two

 

One of our members, Manitou, brought brought up the question of Idolatry in relation to the Hermetica and the doctrine in the "To Aesclepius, or the Perfect Sermon", that resulted in this post which addresses part of the reason why properly conducted magic could be countenanced by an open minded enough cleric:

 

Latria and Dulia, when something is Idolotrous and when it it not

 

Finally of the major posts on Christianity this one on Deification:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34615-a-year-of-agrippa/?p=587037

 

is an attempt to show that non-Protestant branches of Christianity have traditions of deification as part of their teaching. These doctrines do become important in Agrippa's teachings and are based, both on Psalms:

 

I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.

(Bible Hub, Psalm 82:6)

 

and its reference by Jesus in John 10:34:

 

"Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '?

(Bible Hub, John 10:34)

 

It is also an idea supported by many pagan traditions. Christianity, definitely not your run of the mill slave religion.

 

In between all of these were some interesting discussions, at some points becoming mostly a dialogue between Nungali and myself, but many interesting people contributed and I hope that they will also do so in the future.

[Larxene]

Hey guys,

 

I wasn't really concerned about "desecration" or criticisms. I was thinking more in the lines of this: imagine you stopped at page 15. You came back one week or one month later, and you forgot which page you stopped at. Are you going to re-read the 15 pages again? My eyes go X_X when I do that. A temporary solution is to bookmark the page, but there are problems with that as well...

 

Right now it's not a problem because this thread is only 6 pages long. I was thinking about the future, when we have gone through one whole book, and the thread reaches like page 20+. So yeah, like I said, I am just a bit of a neat freak.

 

Ignore my suggestion for now until we've reached at least 20 pages.

 

 

 

Larxene