Psychological Issues and Spiritual Practices: Shouldn't Practices Trump Therapy/Medication?

[Satya]

Psychological Issues and Spiritual Practices: Shouldn't Practices Trump Therapy/Medication?

 

(This is taken from a previous thread, but [in addition to another thread] I thought this could do with a thread of it's own [i hope it doesn't seem I'm flooding the forum, searched through but couldn't find a similar discussion.)

 

Any thoughts on how spiritual practices work in general and how this relates to mental health would be much appreciated.

 

Taken from: http://thetaobums.com/topic/34480-looking-into-new-practices-for-mental-health-enlightenment-and-then-perhaps-immortality-;-in-woteva-order-formerly-taoist-systems-of-practice/

 

 

 

A teacher of Taoist practices isnt necessarily going to be able to help you all that much with anxiety and dealing with other sometimes deafening psychological phenomena, a doctor who is ready to listen carefully to you might be a good first step there.

 

 

I agree with finding help, specifically tailored to the problem at hand. But, in addition, here is some story and some thoughts about mental health and spiritual practice:

 

After an initial year (years ago) of aversion to ANY western method (during my spiritual, put your money where your mouth is phase), I have since been in contact with western medicine doctors, therapists, etc for the past few years. No doubt, CBT and medication do work, and seem to have been the only thing that has worked for the severe anxiety (which will teach me to think in black and white "Only spiritual practices should help blah blah, etc")-(mainly the CBT/I believe [and the science points to] that it results in new neural pathways/neuroplasticity/a change in brain structure).

 

What Do Spiritual Practices Do?

 

This makes me wonder about practices in general. Aren't spiritual practices about clearing out the karma/conditioning/habits/attachment to-or-belief in thought-fear-worry-separation/fear/lies/falseness? This is how I have been taught/come to understand energy practices like Kriya Yoga, Tantra, Yoga, etc, that the spinal breathing is clearing obstructions/conditioning/karma out. And, then, self inquiry/meditative practices seem to be about highlighting Truth/True self, sitting/being with True self/stillness and slowly seeing through thought, undoing reactivity and attachment to thought/feeling, becoming less identified with noise and more with silence/stillness/emptiness/nothingness underneath/behind/between/at the birth of the noise, building new neural pathways perhaps/most likely, and in becoming less identified with noise, less noise arises?

What Is a Psychological 'Problem'?

All a psychological condition is, is an extreme instance, high on the spectrum, of a trait/phenomena that is present in ALL humans: fear, neurosis, depression, psychosis, etc. We all experience these things, but when one area gets out of balance it's labeled pathological, but it's all just noise, and spiritual practices are surely about clearing out this noise/and or attachment to/belief in noise, no? (this isn't typed argumentatively, in case it comes off that way; I'm genuinely asking myself/pondering all of these issues currently). CBT works. I guess CBT is like a forced kind of self inquiry type thing, that focuses on the specific issue at hand. It is very similar to the lower stages of self inquiry.

 

So Why Not Just Do CBT/Therapy?

 

So, you may ask, if CBT works, then why don't you just do that and then once you're sorted get back on spiritual practices? Well, it worked, (CBT and an SSRI [i hate medication, but I was out of options]) I had about 1 month of being fully 'functional'/back to normal compared to how I was when all of this pathological instance of anxiety started, but then it came back. So, I guess I should just keep up with CBT and stay proactive with that (perhaps set myself a weekly CBT reminder practice for life, like a spiritual practice, to keep tabs on myself) but, it's hard, AND, the fact that the issues came back points to me to a more underlying issue perhaps, maybe? I don't know. I'm sure with pro active CBT for years I would hopefully, eventually restructure/rewire my brain so the issues are non existent, but, again, this is difficult, it's very easy to relapse, and, why can't a spiritual practice also do this? Or, at least they should help right? (these are half rhetorical questions).

 

In addition, CBT, for me anyway, to fully work, I need (or at least feel I need and have in the past needed) the help of a physical therapist, to 'bully me' (I joke, but being almost forced in an agreed way is needed) into doing exposures/the CBT work. Self help materials don't seem to be enough. Hence why a spiritual practice to clear out mental gunk is preferable, as, therapy is expensive, and government/NHS support takes ages (I've been waiting for over a year now for an NHS therapist/psychologist, after seeing one initially and it working my sessions ran out).

 

Again, any thoughts on how spiritual practices work in general and how this relates to mental health would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you

Edited April 26, 2014 by Satya

[Aetherous]

I've had supremely great psychological results working with this style of meditation. Buddhists call it 'calm abiding with an impure external support'. (A pure support would be a statue of a Buddha for instance...impure just means any random thing, which is fine.)

Really healing for the mind and emotions! The way that the book describes the how and why of the practice is quite beneficial, too.

[Satya]

I was going through the forums and came across that book. In this thread I think: http://thetaobums.com/topic/33386-what-did-meditation-do-to-me-please-read/#entry515578

 

Did you post it there too?

 

I've put it in an online basket to buy later (going to broke soon after this book binge).

 

It looks interesting. I'm interested in the combination of spiritual practices and mental health for professional/academic reasons also, and, nothing beats an RCT to test something out (apart from a decent amount of personal experience, but, you know, that takes time).

Can you describe the practice at all, to give me an idea?

 

Among others, I've just started a Shamatha practice, following alan wallace and the attention revolution. Obviously the benefits of laser-like focus are self evident, but general well being is preferable and there's only so much time in the day to do practices (unless there's some esoteric magic time spell that I haven't come across yet! ).

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Simon Maguz knows the Manly Hall.

 

xxx.

...

[Satya]

Can you elaborate captain?

[Aetherous]

Can you describe the practice at all, to give me an idea?

 

Some of it involves training your attention. So an example of that is noticing new details about something you're looking at...a leaf for instance. You can try to notice a new detail, and that trains your attention away from the mind and its past/future "black holes". Black holes are basically experiences from the past or ideas about the future which suck your energy and attention away from peace and clarity in the present moment. So, that's one example of training the attention. I like how it goes into detail of how and why to do it in the various ways it describes...more helpful than just being instructed to "focus on one thing".

 

The other half of it is training your interpretation...so for instance, you contemplate various things like gratitute, compassion, acceptance, love, forgiveness, etc. An example of a practice...instead of walking around with a mind full of concerns and a face glaring at everyone, you could consciously try to look at the next 10 people you walk by with pure compassion, acceptance, love, and forgiveness. That look changes your way of being from destructive, to healing.

 

Those are some basics from memory. I actually haven't read the entire new version of the book yet, I only read the older one.

[liminal_luke]

Hi Satya,

 

I think it´s important to take mental health seriously. That means being open to using all available tools as necessary to help yourself live a happy, productive life. Drugs have many drawbacks, for sure, but when they´re needed, they´re needed. My partner´s depression and anxiety have (finally!) started to subside thanks to pharmaceuticals that are working when nothing else would. Could he have gotten similar results from a rigorous exercise and spiritual practice regimen? Yes, I think so. Then again, who has the motivation for such things when emotionally down? Medication can be a stopgap to get people stabilized to the point where other more holistic interventions start to seem more doable.

 

The term "spiritual practice" covers a huge range of activities so I don´t think you´ll find a one-size-fits-all answer to how cultivation might fit into a mental health wellness program. One person might be sitting in a zendo for hours looking at a wall, while another spars in a martial arts dojo. Both arguably spiritual pursuits.

 

If we´re talking general chi gong though, I think it´s safe to say that the practice improves health. This is roughly a two step process: clearing out all the yucky stuck chi, and bringing in fresh chi. Some practices are more oriented toward detox, some towards building vitality. Basically I´d say try whatever you´re drawn to and keep doing whatever works.

 

Liminal

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

Can you elaborate captain?

 

Nurses are more important than wizards.

 

I know nuthin'.

 

I'm Manuel.

 

XXX

...

Edited April 29, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[Bearded Dragon]

Read up on Ed Muzica's history. He had severe depression after seeing essence and is an advocate for medication where necessary. Not triggered by that. I just mean some time afterwards.

[Captain Mar-Vell]

...

The Kundalini awakening experience brings with it many pitfalls.

 

XXX

...

Edited April 29, 2014 by Captain Mar-Vell

[GrandmasterP]

Cultivation is one thing.

Therapy is another.

Anyone with underlying mental health issues can become worse by embarking on cultivation.

Every reputable teacher and all cultivation books come with that disclaimer at the beginning.

Alternative medicine and medical quackery can be killers.

Complementary approaches approved by a qualified medical professional are fine but nobody who is sick and undergoing or in need of professional medical treatment should embark on any cultivation or meditation practice at all unless and until they get the 'all clear' from their Doc.

Edited April 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Satya]

Aetherous (and/or everyone), will give that book a look (sounds similar to the shamatha practice I'm starting). Thank you.

 

Bearded-dragon (and/or everyone), yes, like I said, medication can work (though I'm not a fan). Thank you.

 

Liminal (and/or everyone), ok, yeah, good distinction between clearing/detox and cultivation. And, yes, I learned after a little while of being stubborn/black and white thinking, not to rule out any methods, either side of the fence (western/eastern medicine/technique), and I agree that medication can help to get someone to a place where they can start doing more holistic work, but, (seemingly to me) of course medication does not cure anything. New neural pathways have to be built/old ones closed/brain structures changed through therapy (Jeffrey Schwartz [i think him anyway] has shown that not just neural pathways/structure can be changed [as a lot of neuroplasticity research does] but that actual brain chemistry can be changed through therapy/mindful will) OR, perhaps through being on medication, a persons thought processes become less anxious/depressed building new pathways and after a while they develop new pathways; however, the problem here is then coming off the medication and levels of chemicals in the brain, and this raises questions on the difference between chemical aspects and neural pathways in relation to mental health/recovery/the brain that are perhaps worth my investigation further.

 

Practically (for me and others), this is how I see it: medication to help get functional, then (and/or at the same time) exercise (numerous studies showing better biochemistry from exercise), diet,

 

(ensuring all vits, minerals and essential fatty acids [i see no problem with supplements]; omega 3 plays a massively important role in a lot of mental health, specifically EPA it seems [might be worth looking into for your partner]; happy to post some research here's just a preliminary online search: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15907142 but it's been shown to work/help for anxiety, depression and psychosis based disorders)

 

and, what seems to me to be the most important, therapy/CBT/whatever modality is recommended for the disorder, either in person from a therapist, or self help materials, and stay INCREDIBLY diligent/mindful not to slip into old habits/patterns of thinking, for as long as possible, building new habits/changing structure of the brain. Alongside this, a meditation/stilling/getting familiar with silence practice would I think arguably be fine/beneficial.

 

But, here is a difference between what you Liminal and you GrandmasterP suggest, in that energy practices can lead to health/or not. Qigong is said to be for health, and mental health is still health, no? So, in addition to other practices it should be able to be used for curing mental health, no? It is also still a physical problem (though in the brain), the main notable difference to me is that it's a physical problem that can be (after a lot of hard work) wilfully fixed/altered, after a lot of effort/therapy work, by anyone, without the (noted/mentioned/acknowledged at least anyway) use of chi/energy/cultivation/detox, but will and effort alone, as opposed to Qigong/healing/energy work in other areas where people are said to be able to alter physical parts of the body through will, but using chi/cultivation/detox.

 

So, GrandmasterP (and/or everyone), why do you say that cultivation shouldn't be used in this instance of mental health issues? What sets it apart for improving physical health and mental health (which is a distinction that I assume you are making, but, correct me if I'm wrong)? Do you agree with my definition of a mental health problem being just a universal trait but high on a spectrum? If so, my question remains, if spiritual practices are about clearing out identification to noise/conditioning/fear etc, then what's the difference between a universal trait (anxiety) at normal and pathological levels? Would you say that meditation/stillness practices are universally ok for mental health?-(to me I would say they are) And, what about clearing/detox practices with regards to energy work? Also:

 

 

Complementary approaches approved by a qualified medical professional are fine but nobody who is sick and undergoing or in need of professional medical treatment should embark on any cultivation or meditation practice at all unless and until they get the 'all clear' from their Doc

 

I understand and partly agree with the sentiment, but A: I don't think that a lot of doctors would know what to say on this, or they'd probably just say go ahead, thinking that the practice couldn't do much harm, and at least would have placebo benefits. And, B: again, I repeat my universal trait question as above, what's the difference, it's all clearing/losing identification with the gunk/noise/feeling/thought/phenomena. And, C: This seems like a bleak statement/outlook for someone with a chronic health problem, as, even when it goes away, it has the potential to come back; most/if not all mental health problems are said to generally have a chronic course across the lifespan, fluctuating up and down. So, you saying not to go ahead until they're 'all clear' is both by definition difficult to understand/define what 'all clear' is (being currently well, or being 'cured' which sometimes isn't possible), and bleak for people who want to dedicate themselves to something more/higher in there lives. Are you saying these people can never do a spiritual practice? (Arguably it's good to get functional and then work on other stuff, but, maybe you can see what I'm getting at?)

 

Manuel/Marvell, "Simon Maguz knows the Manly Hall" can you elaborate on this? And, yes, nurses are important, though, if they were all wizards maybe recovery rates would be higher?

 

Liminal,

The term "spiritual practice" covers a huge range of activities so I don´t think you´ll find a one-size-fits-all answer to how cultivation might fit into a mental health wellness program. One person might be sitting in a zendo for hours looking at a wall, while another spars in a martial arts dojo. Both arguably spiritual pursuits.

Yes, though there are a 'huge range of activities', these can be put into a small amount of categories: Devotional practices (Bhakti Yoga);

 

Self-inquiry practices (Jnana Yoga);

 

Meditation/meditative/mindfulness/stilling/attention/concentration practices (often seen together with Jnana practices but also in most whole systems/Raja Yoga);

 

Energy practices: clearing and/or cultivation (Tantra/Yoga/Qigong/etc);

 

And then you could say that Yama/Niyama/conduct could maybe be called practices but that's more of a way of living/personal character/reading/conduct;

 

Also, though these I am not so familiar with, so correct me if I'm wrong, but magickal practices and, similarly, entity/spirit practices (Kabbalah, Hermetics, Tantra, Yantra, Taoist Magick, OBE, Shamanic) do these fall under the same area as energy practices? Maybe some would consider physical practices/exercise as practices also, but I'm not sure I would.

 

I'm looking to investigate practice and theory for myself and general research purposes, so want to gain an understanding of how all of these work, or are supposed to work, in relation to mental health/mental phenomena/thought/feeling, etc.

 

General question to all: What do you think that a Lama/Sifu/Guru/Tau/Preist/Sensei would have recommended to someone with a mental health problem (anxiety disorder, mood disorder, depression, OCD, psychosis, etc) before therapy and psychiatry existed? Or, even today, what would they recommend?

 

Still seems odd to me. Why wouldn't spiritual practices, being able to lead to such supernatural or near supernatural results (depending on what you believe/have experienced) trump therapy/medication? Again, I agree in using targeted/researched methods specific to the problem, but, thinking about all this is raising many questions about spiritual practices in general. If there are practices (like energy practices) that will clear out gunk/icky chi/stuck energy/karma, OR, through meditation/meditative practices that cut off/stop identification with fear/though/gunk, and are supposed to do this entirely to lead to enlightenment, then shouldn't they be superior in clearing out all gunk/identification to gunk? I guess science may show this to be the case one day, and like I said, CBT is like a self inquiry/mindful practice to a degree (but very specific/targeted), also there is a lot of research gaining around mindfulness/meditation/and spiritual practices in general as being effective for both mental and physical health, but I guess it'll take a lot of research to cover all practices.

 

Unless we're talking absolute non dual Truth here, I know there's not going to be a simple answer, and I'm not expecting one. I just want to figure out/research/understand more the relationship between thought/feeling/mental health/chi-prana and spiritual practices.

 

(Anyone can of course chime in, even though questions are directed at specific people).

 

Thank you very much for the input everyone. Though, some of my initial questions still haven't been addressed; however, an important further distinction seems to have been highlighted (to me at least) between energy clearing in the body and cultivation.

 

Thank you everyone.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Satya

[GrandmasterP]

Most excellent points Satya.

From a purely practical point of view anyone who teaches a QiGong class or publishes a QiGong manual without a health disclaimer could get their erse sued off and lose their house.

The insurance companies insist on it.

We live in litigious times.

It is unlikely that QiGong would exacerbate a pre existing mental health issue.

It is not impossible that it might.

It is more likely that a litigant with a smart lawyer could claim that it 'had' .

Hence those disclaimers.

Edited April 27, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Satya]

Most excellent points Satya.

Thank you GrandmasterP. And thank you for providing the input allowing them to be raised. I hope none of it came off as argumentative, none of it was meant to. I just have a recent surge in questions around these issues and have not yet arrived at any complete/satisfactory answers.

 

Indeed. Litigious times, I agree.

[GrandmasterP]

Thank you GrandmasterP. And thank you for providing the input allowing them to be raised. I hope none of it came off as argumentative, none of it was meant to. I just have a recent surge in questions around these issues and have not yet arrived at any complete/satisfactory answers.

 

Indeed. Litigious times, I agree.

 

(((( Gassho))))

:-)

 

We've had a thread over on DW along similar lines.

May be of interest to you.

 

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=16169

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I have found this and some of your other threads deal with some interesting topics

The following posts of mine deal with mind/body and thus practice/therapy-medicine issues from a Chinese perspective. They are part of a thread that begins here:

Any Advice on Helping Someone With Both Mental Illness and Spirit Trouble?

 

These posts are marred by the fact that I am old enough to have been studying through the 'Pinyin' revolution and tend sometimes to write old school rather then Pinyin and not realize it until later. Thus Zhangfu throughout should have be Zangfu:

First response starts to address question of organs in mental states

The second response is a little fuller:

An introduction to mind/body relationship in Chinese traditions.

And finally the third, which goes into more detail:

A continuation with some modern and cross cultural ideas thrown in

 

Obviously these discussions are only an introduction to the relevant issues.

[Gerard]

My advice and experience on this:

 

1. Ground work

2. More ground work

3. When finished, start all over again

How much time do you spend in the natural environment?

 

The brain is not the problem, it is only the heavenly mirror of the internal organs (yin/earth aspect of the human level). These need to be thoroughly cleansed (expect hard, arduous, dedicated and long work) and the five elements refined.

[Jetsun]

Again, any thoughts on how spiritual practices work in general and how this relates to mental health would be much appreciated.

 

Thank you

 

I have done a fair bit of investigation into this area myself. From my own perspective spiritual practice is about allowing things to return back into right relationship and connection with the whole, then in that relationship things take on their natural function which is ultimately healthy.

 

To think it is about fixing, improving or changing anything is to bring the regular driven neurotic attitude into the spiritual realm, which is something we all do to one degree or another but ultimately it won't work, but hopefully the spiritual practice will either bring that into consciousness or will fail and the lesson will be learned in the repeated failure to get anywhere with that attitude.

 

I spent years trying to fix myself using both psychological and spiritual methods, but really just allowing things to exist as they are is far more compassionate and healthy, then things change naturally when you stop fighting and resisting them. That is the paradox which the ego doesn't like because it means it's not in control.

[liminal_luke]

Hi Satya,

 

You´re looking into this so intensively I thought I´d write a follow up to my earlier thoughts, give my take on how different spiritual practices might bear on mental health issues.

 

First off, I agree that mental health is physical health. Depression, for instance, causes physical changes in brain tissue (a point discussed in the book Against Depression by, I think, Peter Levine). At also leads, in many cases, to other diseases that are undeniably physical in nature such as heart disease. So it´s an error, in my opinion, to draw too solid a line between physical and mental health.

 

For this reason, I think that anything that can improve physical health can also improve mental health. There are numerous scientific studies documenting the utility of chi gung for various ailments. I imagine it would work as well for mental issues as for arthritis, etc.

 

Ideally, a person wouldn´t just do any chi gung but follow specific practices prescribed by a doctor of chinese medicine, or some such knowledgable person, so that the practices target the specific problem. Mental problems are diagnosable by chinese medicine. For instance an irritable person might have "liver wind rising." It´s not so simple as saying I´m anxious or depressed and therefore this is going on for me from a TCM point of view. The diagnosis is more nuanced than that and would need to be made by someone who really knows how to read a pulse and hone in on what´s happening in a certain instance.

 

Once a person has such a diagnosis it´s easier to design a therapeutic chi gung program. In chinese medicine each of the five elements is associated with a particular organ system and particular emotions. For instance, the "kidneys" belong to the element water and when the water system of the body is out of whack it can result in fear. The different elements influence each other in complicated ways so it´s not always so simple as saying "I´m afraid so I´ll work on my water element." It might make more sense to work on the metal element that nourishes water, for instance.

 

Anyway, someone who does this kind of healing work could identify which elemental systems need support and prescribe certain movements, meditations, and life style adjustments suited to a particular case.

 

Ok, moving on. Spritual practices can benefit mental health by encouraging "mindfullness." This is especially true of buddhist types of meditation. On a superficial level, training concentration to focus on say the breath, for instance, allows people to distract themselves. And the ability to be distracted is no small thing. Imagine the benefit of peacefully focusing on respiration when the mind is going around in circles in a negative way. Practices like vipassana additionally lead to a sense of "spaciousness." A person might have the same negative thoughts but there is the sense that the thoughts are emerging within a bigger space. The drop of poison that could kill someone when dropped into a juice glass isn´t going to seem like such a big deal when dropped in the ocean.

 

In a more general way, spiritual practices can help a person relax and destress. And addressing stress goes a long way towards helping any health issue. I´m thinking of something like a class in restorative yoga here.

 

Then there´s the social aspect if the practice takes place in a class format or with a teacher. You could probably join a knitting circle and get the same benefit, but if interests run toward the spiritual it´s hard to beat the interpersonal benefit of belonging to a supportive community of fellow seekers.

 

Liminal

[Satya]

I haven't had time to write replies/respond to all the posts yet, but thank you all for the contributions.

 

At the suggestion of Zhongyongdaoist, I've copied this (below) from another thread on a potential Spiritual Thesaurus (http://thetaobums.com/topic/34641-is-there-a-spiritual-thesaurus-multi-spiritual-linguals-wanted-perennial-philosophyperennial-technique/#entry543671), as it was deemed relevant/inline with the topic.

 

 

...

It would be nice to see competent psycho therapy, ayurvedic medicine and traditional chinese medicine more widely available on the NHS.

 

When I first saw a psychiatrist, I told him that I would very much prefer any of these treatment methodologies to the chemical cosh of anti psychotics.

 

All three were refused me, I'm guessing largely on the basis of cost.

Though I agree (short-term) cost is an issue in the NHS, I don't think cost would have been the reason here.

 

Only treatments that have been examined and shown to work in multiple randomised controlled trials (RCTs) and then (usually anyway) a meta analysis, are offered on the NHS (you can see what's available on the NHS [on/in NICE guidance] and why it's available [on/in FULL guidance; an extensive review of available research; for example here http://www.nice.org.uk/Search.do?x=0&y=0&searchText=anxiety&newsearch=true to the right of "Anxiety CG113", there's FULL, Quick and standard NICE guidance]). Which, of course, makes sense, we don't want our taxes being spent on treatments that don't work; I could go on a tangent about how SOME treatments don't suit being studied in the multiple participant RCT format, which I believe may theoretically sometimes be the case, but, that's too off tangent (for another thread/day perhaps), and, RCTs are the best that we have in terms of studying efficacy of treatments for everyone.

 

There has to be extensive/thorough evidence before the NHS will fork out for a treatment, and, in terms of TCM and Ayurveda, I don't think the evidence for many specific ailments (including perhaps whatever you went to the Doctor for) is available, yet (though, more is becoming available, for various "alternative" therapies).

 

Psychotherapy (competent psychotherapy) on the other hand, proven psychotherapeutic modalities given by trained individuals, are available on the NHS; however, arguably, this is where cost becomes a problem. Waiting times are long due to not enough therapists being available, due to limited funds.

http://www.infocoponline.es/pdf/040808while.pdf

 

http://www.mind.org.uk/media/280583/We-Need-to-Talk-getting-the-right-therapy-at-the-right-time.pdf

 

http://www.mind.org.uk/media/494424/we-still-need-to-talk_report.pdf

 

http://www.mind.org.uk/media/498974/mind-briefing-on-access-to-talking-therapies.pdf

 

Cos talking therapies and self- help are ultimately super- cheap compared to most alternative therapeutic interventions.

I agree with this (if you mean alternative interventions such as medication). Therapy, in the long term, is more cost effective, compared to medication. The problem is that governments in general don't ever seem to look at/'do' long term, constantly looking at short term solutions, that lead to more problems than solutions, but keep the tax payers 'happy-ish', and show that they've "done their job" in their term, "providing services whilst keeping in the budget" (another tangent I could go off on).

 

There's also/possibly/it is likely that there are financial biases at play. Pharmaceutical manufacturers putting money in the pockets of decision makers. Drug companies (like any economic power) have often been shown to be dodgy, leaving out important data in studies, paying people off .

 

If the government provided more funding for psychotherapy, it might cost a tad more in the short term, but long term costs would soon go down as mental health problems went into and stayed in remission; medication does not fix anything, it simply masks symptoms (though, this DOES allow people to function and then potentially recover [it's their behaviour which helps recovery, enabled by medication, not recovery caused by medication]). For actual recovery, we need WAY MORE psychotherapists/WAY MORE psychotherapy, and other methods that cure/fix the problem/get to the underlying cause and change brain structure/chemistry, for the better of course (such as spiritual practices [iF THEY ARE SHOWN TO LEAD TO RECOVERY AND ADDRESS UNDERLYING PROBLEMS, WHICH IS PART OF WHAT I'M LOOKING INTO ON THIS OTHER THREAD]).

 

GrandmasterP: MBCT is an interesting and (relatively) new development indeed. I performed a literature review on MBCT in one of my degrees. Combining therapeutic and mindful principles in a group setting, is potentially, very cost effective.

 

And, Captain: MBCT IS a treatment that's available on the NHS if you're interested (but only for depression; you can check NICE guidelines).

Edited April 28, 2014 by Satya

[GrandmasterP]

Yep MBCT is in the early days still.

There's some good research been done but still lots ongoing.

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Thanks for re-posting this here, like I said I think some good can come out of this being here.

There are two issues that influence what you have described, one is money and the other is paradigm bias. Paradigm bias means someones interpreting another persons experiences within a paradigm that negatively assesses them a priori, a fundamentalist Christian will tend to negatively evaluate experiences of 'spirits', a materialist therapist will view spirit visions as hallucinations, mystical experiences as 'depersonalization' and anything that is conducive to these experiences, such as meditation, as being irresponsible escapism. Most 'alternative' therapy forms are associated with alternative worldviews which are viewed with suspicion by such people and without addressing on a larger scale the notion of paradigm bias, alternative therapies will be an uphill battle.

Money issues come to the fore in two cases:

 

There has to be extensive/thorough evidence before the NHS will fork out for a treatment, and, in terms of TCM and Ayurveda, I don't think the evidence for many specific ailments (including perhaps whatever you went to the Doctor for) is available, yet (though, more is becoming available, for various "alternative" therapies).

Who is going to pay for these expensive studies? Unfortunately the neither TCM, nor Ayurveda has the deep pockets of drug companies to support such research, so that even without postulating:

There's also/possibly/it is likely that there are financial biases at play. Pharmaceutical manufacturers putting money in the pockets of decision makers. Drug companies (like any economic power) have often been shown to be dodgy, leaving out important data in studies, paying people off .

Drug companies will have an advantage. Given that such abuses have been documented, it increases the clout of drug companies in the healthcare field. To a certain extant money issues even affect:

Psychotherapy (competent psychotherapy) on the other hand, proven psychotherapeutic modalities given by trained individuals, are available on the NHS; however, arguably, this is where cost becomes a problem. Waiting times are long due to not enough therapists being available, due to limited funds.

Because the Psychotherapies are usually based on particular schools of thought don't have the deep pockets to do the research, they will be hampered in terms of competing with drug companies. Psychotherapies and alternative therapies are dependent on research done in educational institutions, which while it may be a little more open in that regard, nonetheless is not free from paradigm bias.

 

For Alternative and spiritual oriented therapies to take root, there must not only be a concerted research effort, but also an educational effort designed to undermine and if necessary combat the ill effects of paradigm bias. How this can be arranged is the challenge to be addressed.

 

If anyone has not heard of it:

The Scientific and Medical Network

Is an interesting organization that I came across a while ago that seems to be working in this direction.

[Jetsun]

I think the majority of people still have a very mechanistic mindset so they want controllable reliable results from something they try, so I take this drug and it creates this effect on the brain which cures this problem. The problem being that most alternative spiritual healing therapies are more artistic than mechanistic scientific, therefore the results individually and in scientific studies are likely to be unreliable.

 

A person may go to a spiritual healer and the outcome may be that they have made peace with their issue and no longer fight it or resist it, which in itself is often the highest form of healing yet not particularly helpful in scientific statistics. Or a person may go to healer and get healed for something they didn't expect or might help bring about a more healthy holistic attitude to their problem, none of which can really be measured.

[GrandmasterP]

+1 Jetsun.

'Healing' doesn't necessarily mean 'Curing'.

Edited April 29, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Satya]

You/Horus asked about what 'brain issues' I wanted to fix on another thread, and, not wanting to take that one off track, and, considering this one already exists, I am elucidating the general mechanisms behind the issues I want to resolve.

 

Also, for any of you enlightened/clever/woteva folks out there, understanding the mechanisms might provide the opportunity to suggest additional resolutions (though, from extensive research of my own, I'm yet to come across anything that works, in principle or practice, better than CBT/ERP, but I'm willing to hear thoughts/suggestions [whilst I await for support to become available through the NHS]).

 

 

The issues, are anxiety brain issues.

 

Generally, a combination of over estimation of risk, over-thinking and, to be incredibly general, I think it comes down to a lack of trust in the Tao/God/Brahman, that I need to check/stop things from happening, ensure they don't, before they do (for my body avoiding the possibility of infection, consuming foreign objects, contact with dangerous toxic chemicals; for my possessions; ensuring that my tech doesn't get damaged, etc).

 

The answer, to just surrender, trust, etc, is SIMPLE, but NOT easy. A key difference.

 

Neurologically, the dominant theory is that it's due to faulty connections between the cingulate gyrus, caudate nucleus, and orbital frontal cortex (could go into more detail, but, very briefly, the brain continues to create feelings of anxiety even after a task/problem has been resolved, so, you don't feel as if the task has been done/resolved; hence repeated checking, etc). Summarised by the label, OCD; but of course with any anxiety disorder, there is also a general underlying anxiety too (in addition to all of the comorbid issues that you get with all mental health issues).

 

Really, CBT/ERP psychotherapy works (sort of, targeted/specific self inquiry; you can read about theories in my other threads), and has worked before, but, limited budget for NHS in uk means that I've been waiting a LONG time to be seen again.

 

It's irritating, as, all people will highlight; those with OCD are logical, reasoning, and often high functioning individuals in all other aspects of their lives, and they/we/I know that I overestimate risk/that the problems are not really problems, but the OCD is what makes problems that do not exist appear to, but, because OCD works through sending FEELINGS of fear, it overrides the higher thinking centres of the brain in the moment you are dealing with something that triggers OCD (blood (or something that looks like it), chemicals, whatever, OCD manifests in a million different ways), so that, no matter how rationally you think, and even if you know there's not a problem, you FEEL like there is, and that causes you to start to THINK that there is/doubt your own thinking. We have a brain inside our brain, the reptilian brain/limbic system. We've evolved for these more primitive emotion/feeling parts of the brain to dominate/override higher thinking, for purposes of mating/reproduction, and survival (fear ensured that we were alert to noises/stimuli that warned of attack = those that checked more, were more high strung, those that checked their cave entrance for predators, that they had enough food, etc, those people survived whilst the more care free often died out, hence the genetic/DNA lines that carry predispositions toward OCD).

It's thoroughly unpleasant, irritating, and, as an otherwise rational, logical, reasoning (and, hopefully this doesn't come off as arrogant in any way, but) I think reasonably intelligent individual, it's embarrassing.

 

But, like anything, it's all about re-establishing HABIT. Through CBT/ERP you basically, in a graded way, expose yourself to stimuli that evokes OCD response, so, eventually, you HABITUATE (exactly like how they treat phobias; though OCD is a different beast altogether in it's presentation, as new fears/obsessions can arise anytime, unlike phobias), to the stimuli, and no longer respond to it with compulsions. It's hard work, having to expose yourself to what evokes fear in you the most (everyday for therapy to work), so, understandably many don't even engage in therapy (what would you say to someone telling you to go and do [insert what scares you absolutely shitless the most in the world] every single day, sometimes even twice), and, this is why therapists are needed; the principles of overcoming it are simple, but, you need the therapist to prompt/encourage, almost force you (but with love and compassion) to do that which you fear, without responding to it with a safety behaviour/compulsion.

So, like I said, the methods to overcome it are simple, but, certainly NOT easy.