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[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[BaguaKicksAss]

We need a trad witchcraft sub forum .

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Zhongyongdaoist]

I always had an odd relationship with the 'craft' having known some very influential people in it, but I have never really been interested enough to pursue it. I Knew people who worked with Joe Wilson and who practiced 1734 with him in the 70s and early 80s. I also knew people who were 'fam trads' as they used to call them and disdained the Gardnerians as arrivistes. Maybe someday I will have time to post on it. It was an interesting period.

[RiverSnake]

Recently read through another chapter of Serpent Songs....not to kind of book you run through. It's for sure deepening my interest in Tradtional Craft. Knew about him for awhile but I'm finally gonna pick up a copy of Artissons "Letters from the Devils Forest". Looks awesome.

 

Thanks for the thread Seth.

Edited December 9, 2014 by OldChi

[BaguaKicksAss]

Paul Huson has some neat stuff, and even left some good things in .

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[RiverSnake]

Paul Huson has some neat stuff, and even left some good things in .

Hahhaaa Bagua you left pawed rascal. Yes I'm familiar with Huson but have yet to had the pleasure of reading his work. Has quite the diabolical reputation. First heard of the book through several articles on each chapter over at the Used Key.

 

http://usedkey.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/we-make-a-start-the-introduction/

 

Yet to do so, still just gently dipping my toe in these waters. Thanks for the reccomendations.

 

 

Letters from the Devils Forest is great so far. 

 

I keep going back to 'Deed without a Name' through, probably in part because Lee is my teacher, but also because it is a superb book. Lee also has an article in 'Hands of Apostasy' but I have not got it yet. 

 

As for TW, I don't really do anything else these days. It has consumed my available time, and given such a rich array of amazing practices, and things that will take a long time to master.  I could not be happier with a tradition.

Very cool Seth. Glad to hear there is so much fat to soak up in the TW area. Looking forward to furthering and deepening my study.

[3bob]

Seth, What is the goal of this practice you are doing? How would you compare it with your past or present interests in forms of Buddhism and Hinduism?

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hahhaaa Bagua you left pawed rascal. Yes I'm familiar with Huson but have yet to had the pleasure of reading his work. Has quite the diabolical reputation. First heard of the book through several articles on each chapter over at the Used Key.

 

 

*Innocent look* LOL. With Huson, he left some stuff out.... but still an interesting read to get an idea of how some things, and some paths work. I was fortunate enough to see the original version of some of the rituals in his book.

 

My faves though are the Grimoirum Verum and the Grand Grimoire. Mostly the Verum though. Not traditional witchcraft some would say? I would say give it a re-read .

 

I'm curious what do folks think of Daniel Schulke? Is his stuff more traditional, or more past 50 years created?

Edited December 9, 2014 by BaguaKicksAss

[RiverSnake]

*Innocent look* LOL. With Huson, he left some stuff out.... but still an interesting read to get an idea of how some things, and some paths work. I was fortunate enough to see the original version of some of the rituals in his book.

 

My faves though are the Grimoirum Verum and the Grand Grimoire. Mostly the Verum though. Not traditional witchcraft some would say? I would say give it a re-read .

 

I'm curious what do folks think of Daniel Schulke? Is his stuff more traditional, or more past 50 years created?

 

True Grimoire has been calling out to me for awhile. Some kind of resonance there. Hmmm.....thanks for the recommendations. When I'm ready I'm sure I'll get a copy.

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[3bob]

Seth,

Thanks for the personal feedback. I kinda of get some of the "animistic" principles you mention through my limited contact and also studies of American Indian ways... I don't get an allowing of "darker aspects" unless one is talking about a joining with the evil forces within and without? (which would be or sounds exactly counter to the idea of joining to a wholeness?)

[BaguaKicksAss]

Cool, do you mean original source material, or Husons own private material? - Or both? lol

I really like Schulke, and I love the whole vibe/flavour of Cultus Sabbati. It still has the TW elements, but with big influences from A.O.Spare and others...

 

Pre-Huson.

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Zhongyongdaoist]

No problem

I apologise as I have been wanting to give better responses but time has been limited and my replies are a bit rushed.

 

The most important area we work with first is what we call the fetch. You might say its much like the astral body, and we sometimes refer to it as the wandering soul, or dreaming soul.

A possible difference though is we see it as being very close to the physical body, and we see it as having some very strong animalistic and even predatory qualities which we seek to nurture.

The fetch body of most people has been trashed and wounded by our culture and the religions. Just as it is not natural for an animal to 'have' to sit still for hours on end, or to sit too close to other animals, or to not snap or bite at something getting in its face, it is not natural for that part in us either. We know the fetch initially by its sensations, and by all the micro movements and 'needs' of the body.

It is not the daylight part of us, the breath soul or conscious mind that thinks it is in charge of everything {till we go to sleep} It is deeper than that, it is dark and primal, and amoral and permeable {like dreams}. When you close your eyes, and ignore the rational mind/breath soul for a minute, there it is, alive deep within your viscera.

This is the part we believe moves from life to life.

 

The breath soul, the bit that constantly says "I am me, and I am in charge" dissipates over the week and a half or so after death.

The deeper dreaming soul however has its own set of rules, its own type of awareness. It generally joins the peaceful dead and eventually floats on to the next life to be the background for a new breath soul, till somewhere along the line one of those breath souls fulfills the great work.

 

So a lot of our work is about getting to know that type of awareness. Gaining familiarity then competence with the fetch. Allowing it to be as fetchy as we can get away with letting it be, learning to fly, making friends from that level and so on.

 

For us, Fetch mastery is the absolute essential platform. The next part of the work involves starting to marry the Daemonic fire to the fetch.

The Daemonic Fire is what we call all the light, higher mind, inspiration and unitive experience kind of stuff.

The Danger is that it easily scorches the Fetch.

It can be like turning a flood lamp on in the face of a person who is peacefully sound asleep. If you were sadistic enough to do that to someone you will see their dreaming soul/fetch contract in shock. The spiritual light easily overwhelms the dreaming soul, which retracts back into the dark corners of your being.

Then that person {used to be me} walks around feeling blissful and patting themselves on the back for how spiritually advanced they are. When on one level all they have done is treat part of themselves brutally, told it its just 'ego', that it has to be all these Higher mind things, that it doesn't count and so on...

 

We don't do that. We very carefully introduce the Daemonic Fire to the Fetch. As it adjusts we can let a little more in. Not that you can always control the process. Daemonic fire is sometimes in a hurry and just bursts its way on in, and thats ok, and sometimes may mean the fetch was ready for a level up, but all in all its slow careful work.

 

Thanks for an interesting discussion Seth, I have noted your references to the "Fetch" in previous posts and found an interesting discussion here:

 

The Fetch: The True Spirit and the Meaning of Life

 

I assume that you are using "Daemonic" in its original meaning, which has nothing to do with "demons" in the usual sense of the word. Even Agrippa in his discussion of our guardian spirits uses Daemon in the Latin, and the Seventeenth Century translator used "demon" (Agrippa, Book Three, Chaps XXI & XXII) but many people reading this might not be familiar with the distinction and I bring this up to avoid misunderstanding. In antiquity Plato used the Greek daimon for our guardian spirit and referred to the true philosopher as a "Daimonic Man". This link will download an interesting short paper about:

 

Daimonic Men

 

There does, however, seem to be a class of beings that corresponds to the common notion of a demon, but confusing them with daimons, even the using the later Greek classification into "good" and "bad" daimons, i.e. agathodaimon and cacodaimon, there would still be a fundamental distinction that exists between a cacodaimon and a demon. In Classical Mythological terms it would be like the distinction between one of the administrative spirits of Hades rather than one of the residents of Tartarus.

 

I am sure that we would all welcome any comments that you have on the article that I cited and your own understanding of "Fetch".

[Nungali]

Interesting. It reminds me, in some ways, of the nephesh. I wonder how much of this is connected to kabbalistic traditions? And a 'star goddess' is worshipped ?

 

If this is 'traditional' when did it start?

 

 

I read some info on Fetch and it led to 'Feri tradition' and it suggests not that long ago, but perhaps this is a different tradition?

 

But I liked your descriptions ... the 'fetch' seems to me (in terms of my system) .... Hmmm, this is going to be a bit tricky and using words in an 'expanded context' ....

 

I construct a 'lower triangle' in the psyche, sort of like the 'Id' , Moon in the centre of a triangle with Venus / Mars as the base line and Mercury at the peak, this Moon triangle links up through Mercury with the Sun and the rest of the arrangements above it and the higher triangle, representing levels of 'Ego' and 'Superego'

 

The Fetch seems to be that lower part of the triangle ; Moon Mars Venus .... and its connection with the environment (as fetch also seems to indicate 'familiar' or 'totem' ? ) ... that part of the 'extended personna' (that is, this part of the psyche combined with and interacting with that part of ( the 'fetchy' part of) the 'external' environment.

 

As these parts of the psyche 'flow out' into the environment and interact with it, and the feedback from this experience flows back in, the energy is regulated by Mercury as it passes 'up' to higher aspects and dynamics ( where it circulates{ or lemiscates} and flows back down to 'inform and inspire' the lower triangle and its interaction with environment ) - . This part of the process could be the 'marrying of the daemonic fire' , from above, through Sun via Mercury.

 

I like the way you describe this process and point out the need to be 'gentle with it', it is an angle I haven't considered before. I have in other areas. "It can be like turning a flood lamp on in the face of a person who is peacefully sound asleep." Indeed. In the past I have cautioned similar in regards to evocation. If I found myself all of a sudden, in a cage, on a stage, spotlighted and "What is your real name, purpose and why are you here! ? "

 

" ..... er ... ummm ... I ... " <blink blink .... shields eyes against light with hand ... peers into the darkness.>

 

 

~ Thanks for the links Donald, I will read them later

Edited December 10, 2014 by Nungali

[3bob]

Hello Seth,

 

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to share that information!

 

It sounds like a feeding of the "fetch" to me and if so (?) where would the fetch fit in with the following saying?

 

"One evening, an elderly
cherokee brave told his
grandson about a battle that
goes on inside people.

he said "my son, the battle is
between two 'wolves' inside us all.
one is evil. it is anger,
envy, jealousy, sorrow,
regret, greed, arrogance,
self-pity, guilt, resentment,
inferiority, lies, false pride,
superiority, and ego.

the other is good.
it is joy, peace love, hope serenity,
humility, kindness, benevolence,
empathy, generosity,
truth, compassion and faith."

the grandson though about
it for a minute and then asked
his grandfather:

"which wolf wins?..."

the old cherokee simply replied,
"the one that you feed""

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

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Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[BaguaKicksAss]

Hello Seth,

 

Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to share that information!

 

It sounds like a feeding of the "fetch" to me and if so (?) where would the fetch fit in with the following saying?

 

"One evening, an elderly

cherokee brave told his

grandson about a battle that

goes on inside people.

he said "my son, the battle is

between two 'wolves' inside us all.

one is evil. it is anger,

envy, jealousy, sorrow,

regret, greed, arrogance,

self-pity, guilt, resentment,

inferiority, lies, false pride,

superiority, and ego.

the other is good.

it is joy, peace love, hope serenity,

humility, kindness, benevolence,

empathy, generosity,

truth, compassion and faith."

the grandson though about

it for a minute and then asked

his grandfather:

"which wolf wins?..."

the old cherokee simply replied,

"the one that you feed""

 

The "wolves" in this are more regular waking human ideas about things.

 

It is more like asking what would a regular wolf be like, not one where human values are put on them. Wolves just are, animals, not with good and bad, unless one has rabies or something, or something has gone really wrong. Where would a regular wolf in its natural habitat fit in saying?

[3bob]

Seth, Ok, it sounds to me like you and some others are talking about our physical-instinctive self driven by energy directly related to same, along with not quashing its various and more or less built-in and basic adaptations for survival. I see that as our animal nature that in essence is amoral and has one main and very limited genetic directive along with a related "astral" type of program, namely "the law of the jungle". Human beings are much more complex for better or for worse (thus the additional descriptions used in the earlier saying) than the other mostly reactive animals or certain types of beings and thus have a far greater potential range of ways of dealing with and living in said jungle. For instance animals do not have the option of breaking the laws of nature they live and die by, whereas mankind does to a greater extent including forms of self-destruction or to finally find his place in the spiritual scheme of things as a steward and keeper of laws higher than just the jungle level.

Edited December 11, 2014 by 3bob

[Nungali]

~ Thanks for the links Donald, I will read them later

 

They seemed v.diff IMO the first seemed (excuse me but) quite simplistic. The second more complex (of course, due to source) .

 

 

Its hard to say how much traditions are connected. I tend to assume they all have their roots in the earliest 'traditions', way back before we migrated out and covered the earth. But that (or similar) break up of the soul is quite common in celtic and european history. Im trying to think which scholars have covered it well. The two I mentioned to Donald do as far as I remember.

But yes there are similarities all over the world. Pranamaya kosha, the ruach, and Breath soul all seem to have very similar descriptions, even describing the amount of time it takes to dissolve after death. often described as 9 to 12 days.

 

Yes, I dont think any one system has it 'as it is' they are all takes on things that are complex and difficult to describe. thats why I like an eclectic approach. After a while one can see certain connections of signiicance and meaning among them.

 

The wandering soul and the Nephesh, the dream body... sure.

Feri is a good tradition. I have friends in it. Fetch certainly did not begin with them, if that is what you are asking?

 

Just that, I assumed traditional witchcraft in a family tradition might go back further than what wiki states for Feri ;

Victor Henry Anderson (May 21, 1917 – September 20, 2001) .... thought I might have the wrong group?

 

At first though I dont see anything I would disagree with there

Hmm, maybe. The Breath soul is the Mediator that facilitates the wedding, with possible help from the fetch mate. The end result is all three are forged together into a new whole. The process of 'knowing yourself' which came up in another thread, means knowing your depths. Knowing the parts that constitute 'you'.

That is experimental. It means knowing your Wandering soul, the fetch in its various guises. Experiencing this, or 'knowing it' mean your breath souls 'day light' awareness is getting all tied up in the deeper, usually hidden, less conscious package. That means less or none of it will dissipate after death.

 

lol, glad you appreciate that point

He is one cool dude that Donald

 

Yep ... except when he is grumpy ...having pop-up retards refute his years of learning with new-age cliches probably doesnt help ... I often use him as a sifter (ie. just follow links and papers he references instead of trying to find them amongst the rubbish heap myself) .