.

[3bob]

A link on the "shadow", notes from Carl Jung

 

(oops the link did not work but its on wiki-pedia)

Edited December 15, 2014 by 3bob

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Michael Sternbach]

It also resembles the "shadow" part of the Soul that goes to the Underworld after physical existence in Greek metaphysics.

[Michael Sternbach]

Is it, to your knowledge, particularly tied in with the physical body in some way, perhaps identifiable with its etheric matrix or etheric double?

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Edit: See, I'm back on topic.

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Nungali]

I agree. The underworld houses the peaceful dead, and others, until it fulminates again, regenerating the land and moving souls back into incarnation, where a new breath soul is bestowed to them. Their previous memories and learnings are stored deep in the recesses of its dreamlike nature...

 

Oh yes! So much like the Aboriginal viewpoint !

 

I agree. The underworld houses the peaceful dead, and others,

 

 

 

until it fulminates again,

regenerating the land and moving souls back into incarnation,

 

 

 

where a new breath soul is bestowed to them. Their previous memories and learnings are stored deep in the recesses of its dreamlike nature... *

 

 

 

" One day ... that big snake under the ground ... he gonna wake up ! His dream .... finished.

 

All this < gestures out from the hill top to indicate the view .... thumps the rock we sit on ... points to himself ... leans over and touches me on the chest > ... finished ! "

 

* I find that bit v.interesting. I read it somewhere, cant remember where .... Harpur ? ... someone like that. This concept about things being things being stored ... especially (in context of Aboriginal systems) ...

" deep in the recesses of its dreamlike nature " ... or 'dreamtime' - the statement was that the traditions and mysteries cant be lost, they reside in this realm and can be reconnected to in the future.

It is somewhat disheartening when great teachers die and no one follows on as their successor ... I felt very sad about that when Uncle Bill died

 

"Me and Felix, only two left that know this stuff. The young ones, they arent really interested. We both be gone soon. Whose going to carry on?"

 

So this gives me hope when I see the tradition and teachers dying all around me. But I have seen it in action. My last teacher knows so much, and I know it wasnt all taught to him by elders and in initiation ... I observe the difference and growth between visits .... I havent been able to ever ask him a question he didnt have a good , knowledgeable and insightful answer to ... right on the button .... I believe he is at a stage now where 'the earth itself' teaches him. ( years back, as a little girl, his mother didnt even know what a koala was, she saw one and thought it was a monkey escaped from a circus ... all that gained back in 1 generation ! That gives me some hope.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Yes, the term Fylgia is used and the germanic languages greatly influenced english, but the wandering soul {that sometimes flys out in animal form} is an ongoing theme throughout all these cultures. Saying it originated somewhere just because they adopted a term for it from there seems problematic to me.

 

yes, and sometimes I think when one culture says this is soul ... or the soul has this part that does this or that, while another says something else ... we may not be looking at 'soul' or 'nephesh' or even 'fetch' as such .... they may not even be things ... but more like functions .... perhaps of one thing ? that cant be really described from this reality viewpoint . But the function is more evident than the thing itself.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Unless 'Lord and Lady' are some code for similar Germanic words for them that is the words used for them in this tradition .... I dont get that.

 

'Lord and Lady' : God and Goddess : dualistic principle of creation : Ungud and Wallenganda ... ?

[Nungali]

In any case, I was wondering about this.

Seth; I loved your earlier analogy about ripping one's shirt off, leaping on to the office desk, out the window and escaping

( When I have done stuff like this before I used to say "The devil made me do it". )

I am wondering if this (below) is connected to the Fetch and this above 'urge' and / or process as a frustrated desire to 'contact and express' :

Preliminary; Harpur writes about variations of theme, played out in various forms, reversals, rearrangements. etc. When 'soul" ( IMO, in this context ; desire to express a 'theme' from the 'mythic/imaginative' desire nature in and through the rational ego / physical world) is suppressed, it will find a way of expression, even if it slips out distorted, inverted, or in any way or form it will or can, some times overpowering all other sensibilities and rational or social boundaries.

He posits certain analogies of themes and variant expression. One is the 'Witches want to steal or babies' theme; it has appeared throughout faery tradition, folk stories, still occurs in Africa in reality - even today, and in the case of the 'Fake Child Services Officers' ( a modern variation in a modern setting with MiB characters as the 'witches' ). He also sees correlations with shamanic 'gruesome experiences' and the themes some serial killers and psychopath seem to need to act out.

Bearing this in mind, I have for a while, been wondering about this phenomena - Species Dysphoria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_dysphoria


http://cdn.spectator.org/styles/article_page/s3/13542006196075.jpg?itok=bQ0dCDfP

Edited December 16, 2014 by Nungali

[3bob]

Thanks for the links.   Some of very the best pointers to Atman (as Brahman especially) are in the Upanishads!!

I don't see a comparison between the "shadow" as described by Jung as being in the same ballpark, although Atman would know "shadow" and all other categories yet could not be put in a category per-se.  It's amazing how an advanced being can help one see their shadow without one getting lost to it...

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Michael Sternbach]

I agree. The underworld houses the peaceful dead, and others, until it fulminates again, regenerating the land and moving souls back into incarnation, where a new breath soul is bestowed to them. Their previous memories and learnings are stored deep in the recesses of its dreamlike nature...

 

So the fetch remains on Earth and/or in subterranean regions between incarnations while other parts of the subtle body ascend to the planets and stars (or to the multidimensional levels of existence represented by them) - in form of the Astroeides Ochema or "astral vehicle" (according to a Greek school of thought).

 

So, many a ghost story could have been caused by a (frustrated?) fetch. The idea of the earth-bound spirit comes to mind. Spooky!

Edited December 16, 2014 by Michael Sternbach

[rex]

...

Edited December 18, 2014 by rex

[Nungali]

Haha... good

That makes sense to me. I haven't read Harpur in a while but I like him.

Some of that stuff is very interesting, but what to say about it?

 

yes ... I sorta left the conclusion hanging in the air like a chrome plated fart.

 

I think a practice like you outline acknowledges this particular need to express. By doing such things we may give an outlet that isnt warped or harmful .

 

A bit like the Saturnalia or Mardi Gras ... it might seem ( to the more 'reserved' ) a little wild or crazy ... but it provides a valid pressure release and a way of exploring important parts of our life ... other than the 'daily mundane grind' (which may be the least important)

 

However ... in my case .... nowadays :

 

 

[Nungali]

So the fetch remains on Earth and/or in subterranean regions between incarnations while other parts of the subtle body ascend to the planets and stars (or to the multidimensional levels of existence represented by them) - in form of the Astroeides Ochema or "astral vehicle" (according to a Greek school of thought).

 

So, many a ghost story could have been caused by a (frustrated?) fetch. The idea of the earth-bound spirit comes to mind. Spooky!

 

I am not answering for Seth , Fetch or TWC ... but ... on the level of my shamanic studies here;

 

Earth is the divine realm. It isnt expressed as 'the living body of God', but it may as well be. There is a great spiritual comfort knowing that one will be turned back into (or never was separate from in the first place) the environment. You are still part of the environment but travelling through it in a different form.

 

I dont know about " other parts of the subtle body ascend to the planets and stars" in this tradition here... it is spoken about, but more as a group thing ( eg. Uncle Link told me the Bundjalung were 'Morning Star People'. I.e. a group , not an individual.)

 

I have a concept about that from Hermetics and 'neo-Egyptology' ... but it seems to be becoming 'less necessary' . In any case, is it the 'astral vehicle' ... ( " this too must die " ) .... that makes this 'journey' ? IMO that dies in the 'second death', if anything else 'continues on' I feel it is something else ... and that is the thing we must connect with and 'download' our relevant incarnational experience into (otherwise what is the point) ... on the shamanic earth level, that same experience is downloaded in to the 'collective pool'.

 

I am interested to hear Seth's TWC take on it.

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Nungali]

Yes, we speak to something like this as well. Sometimes the dreaming soul is described as belonging to the Earths dream, like its a tiny node of dreaming stuff from the soul of the earth... [/quote}

 

A 'seed' germ', I have heard it referred to as. The man will go to the waterhole , sacred or increase site and collect a 'node' and take it home and give it to his wife. It sounds simple, but the process and techniques behind it (relating to where, who can and cant , combinations, i.e. totemic combinations and rights, clan relations and combinations, kinship - moiety systems ) are known to be one of the most complex researched (still, we only know a minute fraction of it ) .

 

 

And when this started to make sense to me, a great deal of my death anxiety relaxed also.

Realising that the dreaming soul is always there underneath the daylight breath soul, that most of the concerns and stresses belong to the breath soul, and that the processes of sleeping and winter mirror the process of dying, make it far less threatening. I sometimes look forward it now. To finally be able to let go, to relax back into something deep,vast, dark and nurturing.

 

 

 

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/174555

 

[ Still ... I have my romantic notion of part of me ascending and dissolving , and giving all up to the ..... <insert whatever here > ... (I insert 'Star Goddess' ) . ]

 

 

Yet I want to achieve the wedding more and that takes time and cunning, and living well.

 

 

 

I tend to think that the astral body is the wandering spirit, or at least a face of it. In astral projection one can sometimes have that same diminished connection to the breath soul, like in sleep. You get out and sometimes have to make a concerted effort to remember what your intentions were, or you just stand there thinking oh well, im out now, what should I do? with nothing much coming to mind.

 

 

 

I guess drilling the unconscious with 'magical practice' could help ... so its sort of an automatic response.

[3bob]

Nungali said:

 

"Still ... I have my romantic notion of part of me ascending and dissolving , and giving all up to the ..... <insert whatever here > ... (I insert 'Star Goddess' ) . "

 

Ok, there are parts that may do that. Btw, I heard your linked poem as an articulate exercise in nihilistic depression. I think it's a more or less self-inflicted narcotic like lie as far as Spirit is concerned - for spirit sees death die and when you see and know yourself as spirit then you also see death die, for that spirit of truth is life and joy that is beyond (and thus not tied to) death and sorrow, nor a fading away into some vague, fated and unavoidable nul where one might believe there is rest, for again the most true and lasting rest is also in the indestructible, irresistible and irrepressible Spirit as Self that is ever alive in a far greater sense than being bound in some time or place and identified with forms that do come to an end.

 

Best wishes and some luck to ya

Edited December 17, 2014 by 3bob

[Cookie Monster]

I had no clue this existed either, but it definetely has my attention now O.O

[Seth Ananda]

.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Seth Ananda

[Nungali]

Well the dreaming/wandering soul does. Fetch or 'active soul' {meaning an active or maybe activated wandering soul} is only had by the magically inclined individuals...

 

I sort of missed this bit before - I think.

 

So it is not a normal intrinsic part of the psychological landscape? It has to be activated, so therefore it may not exist in that form in all of us.

 

This goes along with some ideas I have had about 'that which does survive' or the 'Immortal Osiris'

 

In a way it reminds me of that part of the 'being' the Egyptians called the Akh ... it is something that 'becomes' we dont start off with one ... some call it the 'glorified soul' . Whether it is a 'right' for just the King , or in latter times, everyone is probably insignificant . It needs to be developed by activated magical practices. IMO there is probably a natural corollary for some, but we 'help it along' with certain process.

 

On another note ..... I watched 5 hours straight of NTV last night (indigenous tv channel) a lot of it was about what I wrote above ; how to 'talk to country' how to allow country to teach you and receive the knowledge embedded in collective spiritual landscape (and how these teachers are dying out ) . It was hard for them, you could see them struggling with our limited language concepts (English language and mental concepts) . Also, in one way, the language they do use and what they describe can be misinterpreted as childlike and simplistic .... but if one has a little bit of knowledge of what they speak, one can see how deep and profound they are !

 

I had a full night of related dreams because of that ... not surfaced fully into consciousness .... good !

(but I feel happy and content about it ... like I have just returned from a trip and talked to a lot of people )

Edited December 17, 2014 by Nungali