how does one reach enlightenment?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I think he widespread definition of it equates it with death, or at least the spiritual and psychological "splodie head, nothing left" variety of it, instantaneous and immediate. Boom! Sounds pretty dangerous and permanent to me tbh, and im no big fan of permanence mind you. Are we talking "end station" or a deep insight about oneself?

 

I've been fond of the idea that enlightenment is pretty much a realisation of the structure of ones mind, whats going on there with the perciever, the deciever, the informant and scientist, the bigot, the fool and all those weird and ill-quilted rags, or slightly defected legos if you will. It wont do much, one will just be fundamentally aware and ever so constantly reminded that what habitually thinks of itself as an entity or individual is playing a joke on itself while desperately trying to survive and function.

Kinda like the old "chop wood, carry water" thing, you know? Just because one "got" it in a deeper sense it doesnt mean one stops pooping more or less regularly or being bored or having lousy days or catching head colds.

Or does it? You tell me

 

Getting a grip on things and putting the work in to slowly (key strategy for me, rushing always leads to Answers and quick fixes) just play the hand you have and at the same time unify the pieces to a whole wich has a center and a radius potentially spanning nigh on infinity, now thats a new horizon and the rest of a lifetime to enjoy getting frustrated over.

Mastering oneself without controlling oneself and all that. Not saying i have, im still at a stage of becoming friends and i get reminded a lot and often about how ridiculus it all is.

I meditate (often but not regularly), i mco, i kung fu qigong and tai chi because i need a structure to help my mind just forget and go, but its contrived and basically all fancy wrapping paper on something i keep re-gifting myself all the time.

 

Probably im just spouting horsemanure to most, but if enlightenment happens, the light switch is turned on. You see where it was dark. Nothing says it stays on permanently, being of a more taoist view i think its all a game of balance, gaining enlightenment and losing it again and on and on until the pendulums movements get less and less wide.

I think it was Oshos book on the TTC that got me in on this in the first place.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Infinity]

You see where it was dark. Nothing says it stays on permanently, being of a more taoist view i think its all a game of balance, gaining enlightenment and losing it again and on and on until the pendulums movements get less and less wide.

I think it was Oshos book on the TTC that got me in on this in the first place.

 

I kind of subscibe to this idea. I feel we have moments, pointers or impermanent realisations that maybe get stronger and turn into full realisation which would be undeniable truth to us of our nature – conciosness / mind / energy.

 

At the moment we are attempting to be this or that when really we are the contradictory unfathomable all. Have not read that specific Osho book but have read a few 'enlightened' peoples bios, 'the knee of listening' by Bubba Free John (adi Da) and 'The Play of Consiousness' by Muktananda's and others.

 

In the 'the knee of listening' if i remember correct he says that enlightenment is our very nature and the only road there is to 'understand' we are already there.

 

Maybe we have to turn all the stones over and look in all the corners for it until we give up and realise its just an idea and we are what we are and hey presto!

 

∞

Edited May 1, 2014 by Infinity

[Infinity]

 

WHAT IS YOUR PERSPECTIVE?!

 

 

This is not my perspective but amember of TTB's, but imho a very very intersting one! Greatest respect to you Dawg!

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/30012-a-path-to-enlightenment/?hl=dawg

 

∞

[C T]

Haha with drugs you can do it instantly.

The bardo states are a trip of a lifetime... unfortunately, there's no access to drugs there. Enjoy the ride in the meantime.

 

Drugs do lend an idea of bliss, i agree... but drug-induced bliss is the loser's way out. Maybe that is the precise factor which so convince drug users that they are 'enlightened' when in fact they're faring worse than deluded beings who do not engage in drug use.

 

Imagine having a good night's sleep, say, 10 solid, undisturbed hours, waking up then fresh, wide awake and energised... as compared to a short, restless night with nightmares induced by an overactive imagination, subsequently waking up feeling groggy and in a less-than-rested mood... ah, sure, no problem, 2 cups of coffee and all's sorted then, wide awake. In both instances, there is the onset of awakening, in one, its a natural unfolding, while in the other coercion had to be applied. Translate this to enlightenment, usage of drugs would be a similar thing ~ its a compensatory need, never to be confused with a naturally disciplined approach to spiritual awakening.

[Infinity]

The bardo states are a trip of a lifetime... unfortunately, there's no access to drugs there. Enjoy the ride in the meantime.

 

Drugs do lend an idea of bliss, i agree... but drug-induced bliss is the loser's way out. Maybe that is the precise factor which so convince drug users that they are 'enlightened' when in fact they're faring worse than deluded beings who do not engage in drug use.

 

Imagine having a good night's sleep, say, 10 solid, undisturbed hours, waking up then fresh, wide awake and energised... as compared to a short, restless night with nightmares induced by an overactive imagination, subsequently waking up feeling groggy and in a less-than-rested mood... ah, sure, no problem, 2 cups of coffee and all's sorted then, wide awake. In both instances, there is the onset of awakening, in one, its a natural unfolding, while in the other coercion had to be applied. Translate this to enlightenment, usage of drugs would be a similar thing ~ its a compensatory need, never to be confused with a naturally disciplined approach to spiritual awakening.

 

I would say there are many drugs which give many experiences and some can give a seeming escape (denial) from your problems and others can give you altered states which can open you up to new parts of yourself and new paths.

 

With my experiences with LSD it seemed like an amplification of myself and I feel it taught me alot, I only ever did hallucinogens I never wanted pain relief only knowledge. Who knows another path may have taught me stuff too maybe more? Food are essentially drugs too, chemicals which effect our body/mind balance.

 

But in the long run I agree with you and they are essentially pointless and any serious persuer of knowledge would see this too. If I had known more then things may have been different but where we are/were only gives us seemingly certain options.

 

∞

[C T]

I would say there are many drugs which give many experiences and some can give a seeming escape (denial) from your problems and others can give you altered states which can open you up to new parts of yourself and new paths.

 

With my experiences with LSD it seemed like an amplification of myself and I feel it taught me alot, I only ever did hallucinogens I never wanted pain relief only knowledge. Who knows another path may have taught me stuff too maybe more? Food are essentially drugs too, chemicals which effect our body/mind balance.

 

But in the long run I agree with you and they are essentially pointless and any serious persuer of knowledge would see this too. If I had known more then things may have been different but where we are/were only gives us seemingly certain options.

 

∞

I guess its really pointless where there is an onset of dependency. The problem is, most who are prone to addictive indulgences never agree that dependency is very much part of their psyche. I'm sure you have friends or know people who are in this kind of situation. I know a few. They all say they are 'managing' well and always on top of things, but in truth, observe long enough, and its quite evident there is a gradual slipping away of that part of the spirit that breathes life into one. You can see it in the eyes, they always reveal the truth.

 

Another thing some dont seem to understand is that enlightenment is not an altered state. In its simplest form, enlightenment grows from complete okaying with whatever condition there is presently, and from here, learning not to identify with fragments of said condition, but with the totality of it, meaning, being ok with the past (causes) that brought on this (whatever) present condition, and then, knowing full well that what is happening now (either thru thoughts, emotional reactions, present habits) are the causes for tomorrow's resultant states, and this, when seen clearly, engenders some immediate responsibility to do whats necessary in this present time to reap certain fruits in the future.

 

Then, we find out what we actually want, and do the right things in this immediate present to ensure that each moment onwards lead to that goal, step by step. In Buddhism, this sort of knowledge is called 'clairvoyance'. Most people want to be happy, but some do the exact opposite to get that. So, they dont have the clarity to act according to natural laws of cause and effect. I am of the opinion that the approach used by psychedelic experimenters falls in this category of people.

[Marblehead]

I think I might have said this before but I'll say it again just in case:

 

Leave the freakin' drugs alone. Let nature be your guide.

[Infinity]

I think I might have said this before but I'll say it again just in case:

 

Leave the freakin' drugs alone. Let nature be your guide.

And if nature says eat a natural magic mushroom, what then? Shamans from all over the world have used natural drugs for a long long time and still do.

 

What about if your ill but a drug can alter your body/mind for the better is that ok? A mind/body altering drug is a drug?

 

I am not sure about absolutes, life is not rigid it's dynamic and everything has it's place.

 

Not saying do or don't that's an individual choice just exploring your statement.

 

∞

[Marblehead]

Challenging response. I'll do my best in reply.

And if nature says eat a natural magic mushroom, what then? Shamans from all over the world have used natural drugs for a long long time and still do.

And many lose their mind before their body is finished living. Yes, we know that there are some drugs that have no long-term effect on the body or mind. And they are not the kind that alter the mind so much that the person does totally stupid things. But I will still suggest that if we become dependant on any drugs we will at some point start looking for something stronger to do a "better" job.

 

What about if your ill but a drug can alter your body/mind for the better is that ok? A mind/body altering drug is a drug?

That's a different situation but I would still recommend taking the drugs no longer than absolutely necessary.

 

I am not sure about absolutes, life is not rigid it's dynamic and everything has it's place.

Agree. And I was only voicing my opinion. I follow my own advice. What others do is up to them, bottom line.

 

Not saying do or don't that's an individual choice just exploring your statement.

∞

Yep, it is good to consider such things. It is also good to maintain some kind of control of our mind. Some drugs take that away from us.

[beyonder]

But I will still suggest that if we become dependant on any drugs we will at some point start looking for something stronger to do a "better" job.

Nonsense. As far as I can tell, that whole "gateway drug" theory only holds for opioids...

 

Do note that the agitated neuroreceptors differ per drug family, based on the specific neurotransmitter analogues. Psychoactive compounds only work because they mimic certain neurotransmitters, and those are drug (family) specific.

Edited May 1, 2014 by beyonder

[Jetsun]

Timothy Leary and others tried their best to do it with drugs during the 1960's-70's, as far as I can tell they opened their minds in various ways and saw through some of their own conditioning, but that's about it.

[mYTHmAKER]

when one is "enlightened" does one know one is "enlightened"?

[jschultz]

It's not anything to achieve or as a path to follow or get to either. I think the reason it's so hard to "find" or "achieve" is because you have to let go of what you think of as you to truly live in the moment and just "be". Everything exists in the moment, all possibilities, etc, and everything including all that you consider you to be is all from the same infinity with no divisions/duality/descriptions/etc. There is no light or dark, or good or bad, there is just "is" (but even that small word is, is an attempt to define/describe something that is everything including the thought/word "is"). We think of concepts/ideas/beliefs as real when they really aren't. We think of a political party as being real, but it's just a concept, a way to think, and a belief but it's not alive and it's not "really real". It's impossible to imagine "is" because by doing so you are classifying "it" as a thing, or a place, and infinity cannot be divided.

 

As humans we see our lives, and we're taught to learn and grow, by seeing separations, divisions, and distinctions (this and that) and it's how we think and experience most of our lives. As individuals separate from others and from our environment. Only by being completely open (minded/hearted/etc) and giving up that "individuality" and all divisions/distinctions can we hope to simply "be". There's no place to go because you're already there, it's just so hard to "be" because we learn by creating distinctions and naming things, that the thing outside is called a "tree", that we "breath" "air", and that separation and individuality is everywhere. We're taught to take a stand or choose sides, that other "individuals" that don't believe what we do or think the way we think are "bad" or "stupid" because our beliefs and choices are the "best".

 

I have "experienced" enlightenment myself, and I think this person does a good job of describing "it". http://paidtoexist.com/enlightenment-is-overrated/ (That is not "me" though I feel much the same about enlightenment as "he" does) I do hope those here hoping to experience "being" in their lifetime are able to. Having lived in an extremely anxiety and depressive life for many years myself previously, it has been life changing and wonderful for me. I do think people that have experienced being, and decide to teach/help others, can likely be very helpful in getting others to experience being as well. I think it's also very important to know though that only you can "be" from your perspective/awareness/consciousness, no one can take you there or "show" it to you or describe it fully. I personally had no teacher, belief system, or steps that I followed.

[doc benway]

"how does one reach enlightenment?"

 

Two steps to get you started:

 

First - determine what it means for you to reach enlightenment

Second - figure out who is asking the question

[Seeker of Wisdom]

If you experience something and then it ends, it wasn't enlightenment. It was a profound mental state, like a satori. You can have experiences that transcend duality and all conceptual frameworks, but they are still conditioned phenomena.

 

Simply because something is so profound that you instinctively grasp on to it as enlightenment, and can't imagine how there could be anything greater, doesn't mean that it really was enlightenment. There is a big difference between stepping out of Plato's cave and exploring the entire world beyond.

[jschultz]

If you experience something and then it ends, it wasn't enlightenment. It was a profound mental state, like a satori. You can have experiences that transcend duality and all conceptual frameworks, but they are still conditioned phenomena.

 

Simply because something is so profound that you instinctively grasp on to it as enlightenment, and can't imagine how there could be anything greater, doesn't mean that it really was enlightenment. There is a big difference between stepping out of Plato's cave and exploring the entire world beyond.

 

What is enlightenment though, it's simply a description for something that cannot be defined the same as a satori is a definition, the same as any other "level" (greater or lesser) of being would be simply a definiton. "Infinity" or "is" (still just definitions) I would say is not a conditioned phenomena because "it" isn't able to be defined or divided (greater or lesser). I would personally say, while thinking here and typing, that there is no end to learning and growing while living here in this "perceived" life that is able to type and think. While typing and thinking I am creating distinctions and perceiving within this "reality" though, which "we" that are reading this are a part of.

 

How do you get greater levels of being from something that is "everything"? Personally that's why I don't understand why so many beliefs create limitations and "levels" that need to be achieved. A good teacher, or master I would consider personally to be someone who can simply "be" at all times instead of falling back into living with distinctions/divisions/separations. To not get "stuck" or hold onto those thoughts/divisions/distinctions/etc. In that sense I personally could see how there may be "levels" of "being" in a sense. Experiencing "is" and "being" is not a conditioned phenomena and there is no "lesser" or "greater" that can be attached to it. In that sense I would agree that any experience that transcends duality could be a conditioned phenomena and not enlightenment, but once you have known what it is to "be" there is no going back, but there can still be work to be done to overcome the previous "ego" definition/division/duality based way of living.

 

Is that what you mean by, "If you experience something and then it ends, it wasn't enlightenment" and "can't imagine how there could be anything greater, doesn't mean that it really was enlightenment"?

[Seeker of Wisdom]

...I would agree that any experience that transcends duality could be a conditioned phenomena and not enlightenment, but once you have known what it is to "be" there is no going back, but there can still be work to be done to overcome the previous "ego" definition/division/duality based way of living...

Well put.

 

I think it is important in discussion of things like this to emphasise the part of your post I put in bold.

 

Sometimes people hear advanced teachings and think that they don't need to do anything (which is true in a deep sense) but apply this profound truth wrongly, by just wallowing in their ordinary views and habits.

 

Someone who has recognised their primordial enlightened nature does nothing, but this wu wei is clearly different from the way a normal person does nothing lying on the beach on vacation.

[jschultz]

Well put.

 

I think it is important in discussion of things like this to emphasise the part of your post I put in bold.

 

Sometimes people hear advanced teachings and think that they don't need to do anything (which is true in a deep sense) but apply this profound truth wrongly, by just wallowing in their ordinary views and habits.

 

Someone who has recognised their primordial enlightened nature does nothing, but this wu wei is clearly different from the way a normal person does nothing lying on the beach on vacation.

 

Thank you for the clarification, I understand what you mean, and I'm "new" to being. I can see how it might be possible in a sense to deny "enlightenment" by thinking that you were "done". Though personally I find it, even in my ego now, essentially unthinkable and impossible to ever be able to go "back", or as you put it to do nothing and lie on the beach doing nothing on vacation now.

[jschultz]

Hehe, and I've just learned more from myself and my ego by my last sentence.

 

"to do nothing and lie on the beach doing nothing on vacation now."

 

compared to saying

 

"to lie on the beach doing nothing on vacation now"

[GrandmasterP]

Those Bom Shankar Shiva lads in India are whacked out of their trees on bhang 24/7.

That seems to suit them but as far as them being enlightened goes, I dunno.

'Shamans' in South America seem to be running gap year camps these days.

It's a living I suppose.

Edited May 1, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Marblehead]

Nonsense. As far as I can tell, that whole "gateway drug" theory only holds for opioids...

 

Do note that the agitated neuroreceptors differ per drug family, based on the specific neurotransmitter analogues. Psychoactive compounds only work because they mimic certain neurotransmitters, and those are drug (family) specific.

I can't speak further to this. My knowledge of the subject is lacking. I voiced my opinion and understanding and that's the best I can do.

[MooNiNite]

My understanding on this is that enlightenment/ self realisation is our essential nature and can never be reached and is dependent on nothing but simply is the current case.

 

And it is our will to be something else which prevents it (unlove). We cannot become ourself.

 

Years ago when dropping LSD I used to enter this super conscious state where my head opened up and I new everything and nothing had to be done and everything was totally perfect, unfathomably perfect and beautiful.

 

Well I began to notice a kind of method to get there. I would basically suddenly realise I was there. So when I was not I would try focus on realising I was there and some times I would flip into this state. It was a weird mental acrobatic performed while tripping.

 

∞

 

i know the feeling