Mixed internal arts - MIA

[Jox]

I have read a little trough personal practice discusions recently and I see that some practitioners mix a lot of stuff together ... taoist - budist - shamanic - fitness, etc ...

 

So ..., what do you think?

Experiences, warnings, advices, education, etc ...

 

 

Peace, Jox

Edited May 5, 2014 by Jox

[GrandmasterP]

Chan's Taoism minus those silly hats, Zen came from Chan.

Howsoever anyone cultivates, single brand or casserole it's the mind that experiences cultivation's effects.

No biggie what anyone chooses to do just as long as they choose experienced teachers.

Most teachers would recommend though that a student sticks to one method rather than chopping and changing.

That said most zennists use QiGong ( walking QiGong especially) but not all QiGongers sit zazen.

The folks who come to us disappointed are generally people who have got so far with a book or DVD then hit a wall.

No book or DVD can offer the motivation to stick at it that a good teacher trained in coaching and mentoring can.

Plus making the disciplined effort to attend and stick with a class is a great focus.

Groups work together helping and encouraging one another.

One of the things I've noticed from the online cultivation related forums I frequent is that you get lots of 'butterflies' online.

People who constantly flit from one new thing to another.

A rolling stone gathers no moss.

Edited May 5, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[BaguaKicksAss]

I have read a little trough personal practice discusions recently and I see that some practitioners mix a lot of stuff together ... taoist - budist - shamanic - fitness, etc ...

 

So ..., what do you think?

Experiences, warnings, advices, education, etc ...

 

 

Peace, Jox

 

I personally don't like mixing relish and peanut butter...

 

Though mixing a couple of different curries together can work.

[soaring crane]

What do YOU think, jox?

[joeblast]

the lowest common denominator, all are methods of training the awareness. if at any point doing any of this it isnt,

 

[Raynevin]

I have read in some places that the Taoists and Buddhists borrowed practices from each other.

 

I think at the general level of abstraction there is the issue of how various practices impact the physical, mental, emotional and astral bodies, and how certain constructs (e.g. focus on the Dan Tien) are beneficial for different reasons.

 

Then there is the sphere of traditions and paradigms, and those traditions and paradigms might have specific ways of conceptualizing and doing things.

 

The error is when there is false attribution or conflation between a practice as such and the philosophy/theology of the parent system. If, for example, skeletal shaking is a reliable technique for clearing blockages, I don't see the need to limit or color that practice with any particular dogma; obviously monks and lineage holders have their ceremonial and traditional obligations but those don't necessarily extend to the lay dabbler who hasn't initiated into those traditions.

 

I think there is something to be said for respecting the wisdom of everyone that came before, just rationally speaking; so if a tradition has been working for a millennium and it has masters who say it is a complete tradition, then just for practical reasons one has reason to stick to it with faith that their practices all fit together and don't conflict with each other and have lead others to high attainments.

 

All in all though I think the body of knowledge would be well served by more objective deconstruction and analysis from a supra-traditional perspective (ala Yang Jwing-Ming's "Embryonic Breathing" and Dr. Bynum's "Dark Light Consciousness").

[SonOfTheGods]

some spectators view it as "mixing"

 

those actually doing it- are "evolving"

 

all depends on the point of view

[SonOfTheGods]

I was inspired lol-

some spectators view it as "mixing"

 

those actually doing it- are "evolving"

 

all depends on the point of view

http://thetaobums.com/topic/34749-mixing-matching-its-all-the-same/

 

In depth, my answer

 

good thread OP!

[thelerner]

If your sensei says don't mix. Don't mix.

 

Still I have great respect for people like Glenn Morris who dedicated himself to studying widely and experimenting with himself and students the best way to approach esoteric meditation. There may be a reason why the MMA kicked ass against pure styles.

[Jox]

If your sensei says don't mix. Don't mix.

 

Still I have great respect for people like Glenn Morris who dedicated himself to studying widely and experimenting with himself and students the best way to approach esoteric meditation. There may be a reason why the MMA kicked ass against pure styles.

 

So it goes ..., if we have MMA why not MIA ...

[Jox]

 

...

 

Now if John Chang, Wang Li Ping, Master jiang trained in only one system of alchemy and didnt mix it then why would you?

 

...

 

I dont know for masters John Chang and Jiang, but master Wang Li Ping supposed to be thought from three different teachers at the same time ... Were his teacher from the same tradition or not? I dont know, but If they were not, then he got a mix ...

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jox

[Bearded Dragon]

some spectators view it as "mixing"

 

those actually doing it- are "evolving"

 

all depends on the point of view

 

You could evolve hurdles by taking away the hurdles, then you have sprinting. They don't do it though.

 

The fact of the matter is that our bodies work the same. Fighting is just the interaction of moving bodies. There is no evolving and there is no mixing. There is only discovery. Discovery can be used to fill the container that is "the art".

[Jox]

What do YOU think, jox?

 

I can not think right now ... just for fun ... let it go ...

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jox

[GrandmasterP]

MMA rocks.

A good MMA player will kick the erse of most purists.

That argument has been fought and won time and time again.

Cultivation though...

Fess up ( talking-to myself here not criticising anyone on here and have no right to)....

Most IA students don't even cultivate one form a fraction as much as a purist MA player cultivates and trains.

Every day, every week the MA player cultivates their form.

They turn up to dojo and sweat.

The IA guy is in his apartment either doing it or more generally not doing it, very little application generally no teacher hence far less motivation than the dojo-goer with a teacher.

The MMA pros work even harder than the purist MA players work - cos in MMA they have to train loads of styles not just one.

Now, in comparison; your average internal cultivator just fecks about.

A burst of enthusiasm to start with then less and less practice then switch to some new fad and so on.

No way do most internal cultivators bring a fraction of the application to their form that even the laziest MA player still attending a dojo brings to theirs.

 

Hence the 'best' IA cultivators, in my opinion; come into IA from MA and bring that MA mindset with them.

Stickability.

Edited May 8, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[thamosh]

If your sensei says don't mix. Don't mix.

 

Still I have great respect for people like Glenn Morris who dedicated himself to studying widely and experimenting with himself and students the best way to approach esoteric meditation. There may be a reason why the MMA kicked ass against pure styles.

 

Well to be considered a martial art each style has to have so many strikes, locks, and so on.

 

So theres no need to really go outside the art its just that the art isnt being taught correctly or completely.

 

You dont want to spend 20yrs mixing arts just to find out that the art you started with had all the training you were looking for in the first place.

 

Mixing the arts will only delude the arts more.

 

Plus you cant mix something you dont understand. It takes a long time to understand the nature of an art.

 

To mix arts implies one is lacking......that's dangerous thinking.......

[BaguaKicksAss]

GrandmasterP knows a bunch of IA slackers .

[Infinity]

In my experience (dragged up a Roman Catholic) many traditions are empty or have little spirit as they have been diluted through the years. So I like to understand things and know why and what I am doing.

And when I understand how things work I may understand that this could work better if done like this...

So MIA sounds like an evolution when done with knowledge and insight.

However, I am new to this and currently following a path I trust already trodden and until I understand better will not deviate (accept maybe a little).

For me the fruit is more important than the tree.

∞

Edited May 9, 2014 by Infinity

[SonOfTheGods]

Jeet Kune Do by some slacker named Bruce


/sarcasm

Edited May 9, 2014 by SonOfTheGods

[GrandmasterP]

GrandmasterP knows a bunch of IA slackers .

I am one of those 'IA slackers'.

Ya want any slacking done.... GMP ( Ye olde firm. Slackers to the Gentry. Est.1952) ... Then look no further.

 

:-)

Edited May 9, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[GreytoWhite]

I have found that some IMA artists and teachers are good at their game of push hands or maybe even have some good qinna but once you start striking many crumple under pressure. Having fought A LOT through childhood and adolescence and good friends who were full contact tournament champions in most of the arts that make up modern MMA to spar against taught me just what a fight is about - damage. One does not always have time to let off that full spinal wave and body rotation to get out a fa jin. Someone trying to hurt you doesn't care how good you are at push hands.

 

There are MANY useful drills in the IMA but one needs to polish the stone. FIGHT with your taiji, bagua, or xingyi - preferably from day one. My taiji teacher could wrap me up like a pretzel then throw me 10 feet but because he was a very small man I was still able to get an occasional head knock in. He trained judiciously and quite hard under some of the biggest names in Chen shi but they didn't teach him how to deal with a street fight. His body mechanics are damned near perfect, can express fa jin in almost every part of his body, and is one of the healthiest people I know but were we truly fighting in some of our sparring I may have knocked him out in the first exchange. I learned that regardless of body mechanics, serious training, there will always be someone out there you will struggle against for some reason. We need to train our skills but also face other people who train things outside of our specialties. Mad respect for folks like Tim Cartmell who have gone out, learned neijia very deeply and then continued to learn more from other arts instead of staying a big fish in a small pool.

 

If you can find some folks who are friendly and in other styles I highly recommend playing around and sharing what you know. I met a fellow shortly after I started training taiji. He mentioned he was a 7 dan in tae kwon do, had trained some Serrada Escrima, and that he rather liked bagua. After a few pushes back and forth and finding myself in utterly compromised positions where my neck was about to be snapped we really got to talking. I came to find out he had trained extensively with B.K. Frantzis, Xie Peiqi, and a few others in the Bay Area. One thing that he stressed repeatedly was that the internals are great but the normal physical must be developed for proper fighting usage. Many of the best internal masters were experienced in external arts and/or did manual labor for a living.

[Jox]

I wonder, if there is maybe the same situation in the "spiritual arts" as we can see recently in martial arts, mma vs tai chi. Traditional - "original" one one side and nontraditional on the other.       

[windwalker]

On 5/5/2014 at 2:07 PM, Jox said:

I have read a little trough personal practice discusions recently and I see that some practitioners mix a lot of stuff together ... taoist - budist - shamanic - fitness, etc ...

 

So ..., what do you think?

Experiences, warnings, advices, education, etc ...

 

 

Peace, Jox

MIA means missing in action.  Which one will be if they try to attempt things that they do not have a sound base in or understand.