vegan & being full.

[mantis]

i've been a vegan for about 2 months - not really strict strict as at times i've eaten food both willingly and unwillingly that have dairy or something similar in them. anyways, this has really been bugging me as of recent. i eat dinner for example with like some tofu and rice and possibly a wheat bagel after but i never feel "full." i always feel like i can eat more than what i have. i have been thinking a lot about going back to a non vegan diet but avoiding red meat still and some dairy. this would allow me to eat chicken and fish which are both very nourishing. also i fear that i may not be getting enough protein as for someone my age i should be getting 70 grams a day at least and i don't think i'm near that.

[karen]

Hi mantis,

 

There are lots of things that need to be factored in to determine what's a good diet for you as an individual. But I can tell you a few things that can contribute to a disruption of the appetite regulating mechanism.

 

1. Zonulin - a protein found in grains, which can increase intestinal permeability, causing "leaky gut" and also interfere with appetite regulation.

 

2. MSG and free glutamic acid in processed foods - a big issue for vegans who are eating soy foods. This is how we get Chinese restaurant syndrome even when eating so-called natural foods. See the list of ingredients that contain hidden MSG:

http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html

 

3. Artificial sweeteners, especially aspartame, interfere with appetite regulation and make people hungrier.

 

4. Grains in general - promote insulin resistance and carb craving.

 

 

Let's take the tofu, rice and wheat bagel:

 

Tofu is not a healthy food for anyone. See the Weston Price Foundation website for lots of info on that.

 

Rice is okay for some people, in small amounts, but others do best with no grain at all. Brown rice should always be soaked or sprouted.

 

Wheat bagel - wheat isn't healthy for anyone, not even whole wheat, although some people can tolerate it better than others.

 

And on the issue of protein - the type of protein is just as important as the amount. You want to give your body the particular type of fuel it was designed for. And good quality fats are very important, and very lacking in vegan diets. Fats satisfy.

 

So your instinct is right - your current diet idea could use an overhaul .

 

-Karen

Edited August 6, 2007 by karen

[mantis]

fuck it then everything is bad for you i'm going to eat whatever the fuck i want

[karen]

Mantis,

 

Your post asked for information, and you got it. No need to be snide. Dietary guidelines aren't rules that prevent you from eating what you like - but going for whatever is attractive at the moment isn't what most people really want anyway.

 

Take care,

Karen

[mantis]

that post wasn't really meant for you, i'm sorry if you got affended. i'm just tired of people saying this is good this is bad when it comes to food only to have it be bs a few months or years later and what you thought was good actually causes cancer or something ridiculous.

[mYTHmAKER]

that post wasn't really meant for you, i'm sorry if you got affended. i'm just tired of people saying this is good this is bad when it comes to food only to have it be bs a few months or years later and what you thought was good actually causes cancer or something ridiculous.

 

 

Try adding some nuts to your diet. 3 -4 ounces a day.

check out Dr Fuhrmans site: http://www.drfuhrman.com/

Edited August 7, 2007 by mYTHmAKER

[witch]

Oh, here I replied in the other thread assuming you were a hardcore vegan! Oh well. Maybe hardcore vegans can benefit.

 

If you aren't, by all means take regular fish oil--it's much cheaper!

Edited August 6, 2007 by witch

[VCraigP]

Just wanted to put a finer point on what Karen and Witch had said.

 

Fats, Oils are what satisfy. Fats/Oils in the stomach send signals of satiety to the brain. Without these at any particular meal will definitely leave you unsatisfied. Further, fats slow down the absorbtion of carbohydrates thus helping reduce spiking of blood sugar for a more sustained release of energy from your foods.

 

 

One comment about your frustration on dietary information.

 

There is definitely a wealth of conflicting information out there. I will not try to summarize it in this post but I have found you need to do the research yourself and be guided by your own body's instincts and feedback.

 

this is one of the benefits of developing self knowledge and inner communication which is fostered by the various wisdom practices discussed (or not discussed as of lately) on this board.

 

IN my opinion there are few, if any comprehensive sources of education in this field. Most people with any experience in the nutrition industry know far more than your average M.D.

 

Finally, on a personal note I think Veganism is a modern form of insanity! It is based on a conceptual model (i.e. the MIND) driving the decisions on what the body needs. I think it is a typical mind centered approach which fails to recognize or communicate with the body to determine its needs. Veganism is not based on any historical or cultural approach to nutrition.

 

This is my own personal bias. I have my own issues with food, and am not a vegetarian - at all.

 

Good luck on your diet.

More importantly good luck developing the dialog with your body.

 

Craig

[freeform]

I'm just tired of people saying this is good this is bad when it comes to food only to have it be bs a few months or years later and what you thought was good actually causes cancer or something ridiculous.

 

Mantis - there isn't anything that is definitively good or bad for you.... it just doesn't work like that - there is what you injest and what effect it has on you... Some would say crude oil is bad for you - to me that's a value judgement and takes you away from reality - I suspect if you down a pint of crude oil, you'll die - that's the effect that crude oil has on you in that quantity... many food colourings are made from crude oil derivatives, and we still eat and drink them.

 

There is no good and bad - there is just an effect on your body - and it's subjective... listen to what others before you have said about the effects of certain foods and try them yourself and see what effects they have on you, this takes awareness and discipline - eating can be a form of chi kung if the awareness is on your body.

 

If you do this properly, then your body will crave exactly the sort of things that you need (as long as the awareness is on the physical body, not the mind or the emotions!!!) - you may crave meat, you may even crave a huge chocolate cake, you may crave a frutarian diet (I doubt it - it's a very 'mental' diet, as is hard core veganism) - just trust your body, it knows far more than your little self and your limited mind does.

 

[edit]

Just checked back after I wrote the last post and noticed that Craig wrote almost the same advice at almost the same time!

 

A coincidence like that is always worth exploring!!

Edited August 6, 2007 by freeform

[karen]

Mantis,

 

You've gotten excellent responses from folks here, and I hope it helps. I completely agree with you that there's something wrong with the the way the "expert" opinions in the health field change all the time. I followed the vegetarian, grains and beans type of diet for decades, before I discovered that many of the assumptions I had about that were coming from the health food industry's promotional campaigns, not from any real science.

 

And by science I don't mean just the conventional research, which has heavy biases. But the kind of direct observation of nature that Weston Price did, when he visited indigenous people and saw the diets that kept them healthy.

 

This is where we don't get the truth handed to us on a silver platter anymore - we have to do the investigation ourselves. There are people around who have done this kind of independent research for many years and can help guide others and show them some shortcuts through the jungle. I do private consulting to help people cut through the confusion.

 

It really is like wandering in the wilderness sometimes, when you're looking for natural approaches and there are just too many fad diet books and diet gurus out there saying conflicting things.

 

It doesn't mean that it's all meaningless, but that you have to zero in in a simpler way on some basic principles that are grounded in reality, not in marketing hype.

 

For starters, you could try changing just ONE thing about your diet, and notice how you feel. Like freeform says, there is no good or bad in an absolute sense, but that you'll find that you feel better from eating a certain way. And that may shift at different times, because we're always changing.

 

If you eat foods that don't enhance your health, you'll notice that effect and have a choice about changing that or not - it's only your choice.

 

So, the whole diet and health food industry would like us to think that it's about which diet is best, which supplements are the latest and greatest.. they're selling products. But it's really about finding out what works for you as an individual, and everyone is unique, so every diet is unique.

 

Take care,

Karen

 

P.S. Another tip for starters is to choose foods from the outer aisles of the supermarket - fruits and vegetables, animal foods, eggs, etc. - in other words, the least processed and packaged. Then you can start tweaking things later.

Edited August 6, 2007 by karen

[VCraigP]

Karen

 

Your comment about changing "just one thing" reminded me of a very interesting conversation I had an airplane.

 

We were talking about nutrition in general because that's my field in a broad sense. He mentioned that he wasn't really "into" health foods, but that he had wanted to change and improve what he was putting into his body. So he did something I thought was really smart. He ADDED just one thing to his diet. He started eating Blueberries all the time. His experience was pretty remarkable considering how simple of a move this was. He said he had more energy, was able to think more clearly and just felt better in general.

 

Now, of course this is a silly simple thing to do, but in my view really intelligent. It was a change he could easily maintain without jarring his system or causing resistance. But because of the strong nutritional value of blueberries he was able to feel a result quite rapidly. He didn't have to buy any supplements, but rather used a whole food as a supplement.

 

Of course this is not to say that all you need is blueberries, but rather to point out how one small change could make a big difference.

 

just another thought.

 

- freeform -

thanks for being on my wavelength dude

 

Craig

[mYTHmAKER]

Mantis - there isn't anything that is definitively good or bad for you.... it just doesn't work like that - there is what you injest and what effect it has on you... Some would say crude oil is bad for you - to me that's a value judgement and takes you away from reality - I suspect if you down a pint of crude oil, you'll die - that's the effect that crude oil has on you in that quantity... many food colourings are made from crude oil derivatives, and we still eat and drink them.

 

There is no good and bad - there is just an effect on your body - and it's subjective... listen to what others before you have said about the effects of certain foods and try them yourself and see what effects they have on you, this takes awareness and discipline - eating can be a form of chi kung if the awareness is on your body.

 

Sorry to disagree but there are things that are definately not good for your body.

You may not feel the effects right away but somewhere down the line it will catch up with you.

What is subjective is whether or not you have an immediate reaction.

Even if your genes are top notch your body still has to waste energy disposing of toxins.

There may not be one best diet for everyone but the rule of thumb should be the less

processed the better, the fresher the better, the more organic better, the less cooked the better.

The mainstay being fresh fruit and vegetables regardless of whether you are vegetarian or cannibal.

Eating the food of your choice in this manner will be most helpful and healthful to your body.

BTW the healthiest part of the bagel is the hole.

[mantis]

thanks for all the replies guys and sorry for the hostility i showed her i was just greatly frustrated. i'm going to go with what i feel is right to it - and that's as simple as it'll be for me. thanks everyone.

[karen]

Sounds good, mantis. Mythmaker, freeform, I have another way to look at the question of whether there are absolutes in what is good for us. The problem is that the intellect wants to force the issue into an either/or kind of false dichotomy, the old objective vs. subjective philosophical argument, which can't be won on that level of thinking.

 

What we're going for, I think, is a new kind of objectivity - not the kind that's separate from us and simply tells us the rules to follow. But an objectivity that comes from each person's inner capacity to activate the function of resonance. Let me clarify what I mean by resonance, as opposed to attraction.

 

You see the mango ice cream, and the false ego is attracted to it. It's all about "yum, I want it." Then we fight with that desire, because we know that it's not always reliable. We could say there's no absolute right or wrong about it, sure, but also that if we just keep eating mango ice cream whenever we get the urge, we might not be getting what we really want and need.

 

So how do we solve that problem? Not by creating rigid rules that say "ice cream is bad for you." But not by going with whatever feels good to the false ego, either. There is another way, as usual!

 

It's a sort of higher sense of objectivity, which operates through resonance. I can know what's good for me in an objective way, without rules telling me what I'm supposed to do, but also without the subjective bias (which is really the false ego trying to convince me that mango ice cream is a healthy fruit ). There are a lot of ways we can delude ourselves about those choices.

 

With this higher form of objective thought, I might actually know that today a little mango ice cream might be just what I need, even though it may not be "correct" in any theoretical sense. Tomorrow it may not be the right thing. It's a matter of activating a higher function of desire, that works according to true resonance, not attraction. And then there is no right or wrong in the sense of rigid rules, but a rightness in terms of the resonance.

 

The learning process is about recognizing the difference between false attraction and true resonance.

 

Then it would seem that eating only what is truly resonant with you at a particular time, assuming that we were fully attuned to that, is the best thing. But not always. There's another side to this, that taking small amounts of poisons, or substances that are "bad" for us, can give a kind of workout that we wouldn't get otherwise if we were eating everything that agreed with us all the time. But this is a more advanced practice, you could say.

 

There was a guy who ate an airplane. Took a while, and I wouldn't say that it was healthy in the usual sense, but he got a kind of workout from that. That's just a bizarre example, of course, but the point is that we have choices that Weston Price's natives never had. And that's because we now have the capacity to use this higher Reason to make choices that are truly resonant.

 

Our consciousness has evolved, and we're not hunter-gatherers eating only what's available in season, according to pure instinct. The challenge now is to develop this higher capacity for Reason, which older cultures couldn't have activated. That's why we have to put some thought into our dietary choices, and learn certain principles. It's not about one-sided intellect, but not about one-sided instinct either.

 

Oh, and some totally raw ice cream made from raw cream, egg, honey and fruit might actually be totally healthy in the summer. Might be too healthy, and I might need to find some steel shavings to top it off.

 

Craig - I didn't read your post until just now, and caught the word "airplane," ha! Great story. Add blueberries.

 

-Karen

[mat black]

Karen, Im wondering, does millet also have the insulin reistance and carb craving effect of other grains?

 

Thanks

[mantis]

for anyone who was curious - i ate meat and i feel no different, in fact i feel better. i felt somewhat groggy and fatigued before doing so which had been treading me for a few days. i am still going to cut out red meat and most of my diet will be poultry and fish and what not.

[beancurdturtle]

You need some of my good chick pea stew. Carmelize onions in some good olive oil (don't skimp), drop in some cubed fresh tomato, toss in the overnight soaked chick peas and a couple teaspoons of good masala spices. Then stew it up until its mush and firm little tidbits.

 

Put it in a bowl and sprinkle some black sesame oil over it. Then eat up.

 

Try lentils, chick peas, and other legumes. Cook them with good spices and healthy oils. You'll be a happy camper.

 

Nuts are a hot tip too. Almond milk is good - especially homemade.

[freeform]

Karen - great post, you brought something new to the table. I completely agree about the resonance vs attraction - and the 'higher reason', I'm curious about.

 

mYTHmAKER, I actually agree with your general guidelines - but there are still exeptions when you use instinct. If Taoist sages can follow the movement of stars and planets with their bodies, we can definately cultivate a sensitivity for what's good for us in the moment.

 

The way I was introduced to it was through kinesiology. It's a way to bypass the ego, and recieve communication straight from the body. You hold a substance and test if you go weak or strong as a result - it's very clear, and for me worked amazingly. (I was tested with a blindflod and consistently went weak when there was white spirit or some other poison put in front of me). This is like a helpful crutch - after being tested hundreds of times I would begin to notice subtle internal differences between when it was poisonous or nutritious. So we carried on testing subtly different foods, to develop the sensitivity (rather, I think the sensitivity was already there, it was just a way of learning to make it conscious - unmasking it).

 

Eventually I stopped using the normal kinesiology method and developed my own (one I wouldn't need a partner for) - I would hold a substance up to my belly and and just let go internally - I would then feel a slight pull towards the substance or a slight push away from it - I actually rocked a little on my feet. So I would go into health food shops and test everything I could. After a while I didn't rock anymore, the push and pull was felt internally. Later still I didn't need to put the food in front of my belly, I could just hold it... later still I could get a 'reading' from just being near the food and now I can just think of a food and take a reading.

 

This is not some special skill - I have a feeling that it's an innate capacity that is never excersised and so we lose the consciousness of this sensitivity. The pull and push is very subtle and internal, it is so easy to miss. Having prescribed, objective diets stunts this ability even more - we start using the mind to work out what's good for the body - the body, meanwhile, being the gentle soul that it is never shouts, but always whispers its message, and ofcourse the obnoxious, loud mind drowns out the message pretty easily. (untill you get ill!)

 

The interesing thing I found when testing was that one thing can be a pull one day and then can be a push the next - it even sometimes changes in the same day. Testing vitamins and suppliments was also interesting - most of them tested bad. Many of what's considered 'bad' (sweets, some processed foods, things that arent fresh) sometimes test good!

 

Oh and another thing - I found that you had to be properly hydrated for this to work - if you are dehydrated everything tests bad - I'm guessing because you need water first.

 

Is this way of eating infallible? - no. Sometimes it's hard to close in on the sensation, especially when the mind is over-active (which happens by default in most supermarkets... there might be a reason for that!!) It also takes much longer to shop - one tomato can test good whilst another from the same basket can test bad etc. And in certain situations you just have no choice - so you test 'not eating' and you test 'eating the airplane food', and see which one is the least damaging. And ofcourse it's still a struggle going against the grain, trying to be in the body and aware and sensitive, whilst everyone around you is resonating differently and dragging you in that direction with them...

[OpenSecret2012]

i've been a vegan for about 2 months - not really strict strict as at times i've eaten food both willingly and unwillingly that have dairy or something similar in them. anyways, this has really been bugging me as of recent. i eat dinner for example with like some tofu and rice and possibly a wheat bagel after but i never feel "full." i always feel like i can eat more than what i have. i have been thinking a lot about going back to a non vegan diet but avoiding red meat still and some dairy. this would allow me to eat chicken and fish which are both very nourishing. also i fear that i may not be getting enough protein as for someone my age i should be getting 70 grams a day at least and i don't think i'm near that.

 

 

- Something else you should try:

 

Drinking water. Whenever you feel hungrey, drink some water first before eating. While you are eating drink water (or whatever liquid, non-concentrate orange juice, soy milk, whatever.). You get the most out of non-water fluids by drinking them while eating, or after eating - the food makes them sit in the stomach longer, giving more of a chance to asorb their vitamins.

 

For the majority of people, the desire to drink and desire to eat, are closely tied together. Sometimes I drink a half gallon of water before eating.

 

 

****************************

 

IMHO the evidence shows vegan diet is a sham. And vegetarian diets are nothing special. (Not as bad as vegan. But not really as spectacularly greater than "normal" diets.)

Simply look at the Russian/Commie athletes, and their performances vs American/"Western" athletes. There is either no difference, very little difference, or the non-Western athletes run circles around the Western athletes. And even better example is S. American, African, Cent. American, athletes and how they dance around Western Athletes. They eat a mix of fruits, veggies, and MEAT.

 

IMHO kosher meat is better than non-kosher meat though.

 

Look at people who live very long. It's more from building more good Karma more than bad karma first, getting exercise second, and third eating sensibly.

Edited August 7, 2007 by OpenSecret2012

[karen]

Karen, Im wondering, does millet also have the insulin reistance and carb craving effect of other grains?

 

Hi Mat!

 

Not quite as much, and millet also doesn't have as much of the phytates that make other grains hard to digest and bind minerals. It doesn't have to be pre-soaked or sprouted like other grains do. So that's the up side. The down side is that millet isn't very nutrient-dense, or energy-dense. We're really extracting energy from foods, and the less energy the food has, the more the body has to provide it own energy to process the food.

 

So I wouldn't use millet as a staple food, but occasionally I'm sure it's fine. I prefer the taste of basmati rice and quinoa, so I go for those when I want a little grain (and when I'm not occasionally indulging my wheat addiction ) But generally I find there are plenty of yummy, energy-dense foods to keep me happy.

 

-Karen

[mYTHmAKER]

The interesing thing I found when testing was that one thing can be a pull one day and then can be a push the next - it even sometimes changes in the same day. Testing vitamins and suppliments was also interesting - most of them tested bad. Many of what's considered 'bad' (sweets, some processed foods, things that arent fresh) sometimes test good!

I use kinesiology (sometimes a pendulum) to test foods when I have a hunch they might be harmful.

However, I wouldn't use it to rationalize eating sugar.

I would eat a piece of fruit instead.

Eating the same thing everyday can build up allergies.

That's why it is recommended to eat what is in season

and possibly why you don't get consistant results with your system.

How many people do you know who are as discriminating as you are

and take the trouble to test their foods. Not many I'm afraid.

[karen]

Karen - great post, you brought something new to the table. I completely agree about the resonance vs attraction - and the 'higher reason', I'm curious about.

 

Yup, I find it fascinating, this idea of Reason which is not about the intellect as we know it. It takes some work to build a foundation for it in terms of defining the words being used.. because in this system, words like "thought" and "idea" have precise meaning as real phenomenon, beyond the abstractions we've made of them. Not to mention the old bugaboo "science", hehe.

 

I might try writing something on Reason, and see if I can avoid getting into the "retroactive man" conundrum - where every thought seems to require taking a step back to provide the background, so you never get anywhere .

 

-Karen

[mYTHmAKER]

Here is a video not for the faint of heart.

It is horrible to watch but a must see.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967

[d'avid]

@mat black: I eat millet a lot. I pursue an almost vegan diet. The carb craving from other grains possibly stem from the gluten. I've heart that wheat as most grains from which bread is produced contain highly addictive opiod peptids, that are found in diary products as well (they're there to build a bond betweend mother animal and the suckling babe.

 

Millet is rich in silicon oxides which are considered beneficial for the lighter bodies.

[mYTHmAKER]

i've been a vegan for about 2 months - not really strict strict as at times i've eaten food both willingly and unwillingly that have dairy or something similar in them. anyways, this has really been bugging me as of recent. i eat dinner for example with like some tofu and rice and possibly a wheat bagel after but i never feel "full." i always feel like i can eat more than what i have.

 

Eating beans will give a satisfied feeling