Why should I have a teacher? Or follow anyone's advice here at all?

[Ryan94]

I don't see any real taoists here. Just massive liars, idiots or deluded fools under placebos.

 

Neither do i see any real taoists amongst the gamdmasters or teachers of taoism. By 'real taoists' i mean people who follow only the teachings of Lao zi and Zhuang zi and don't follow the ridiculous superstitions of chinese folk religion of the fantasy fairytales from buddhism/hinduism/christianity.

 

Since no one has yet reached enlightenment/immortality/maximum cultivation/whatever the goal of Taoism is, there is no need to be taught from anyone about something which no-one at present day has obtained.

It's like a blind boy asking his blind father to describe the colour 'blue'. He cannot possibly know, and even if he did know, there's no-way he can describe it in a way his son will understand the answer or interpret the real meaning.

[idiot_stimpy]

Just massive liars, idiots or deluded fools under placebos.

 

I can only speak for myself.

[dogson]

Hey Ryan,

 

Even though yours is a very trollish post, and I'm even fairly convinced your whole mission is to just stir up negative energy, you're still good practice.

 

Allow me to offer a weird comparison between yourself and a master guitarist. Often, when one's ears become highly trained, musicians run into the problem where their instrument always sounds out of tune. It's not the instrument that's bad. It's simply that their acceptable threshold of vibration is so narrow that it's literally impossible to tune the instrument into that precise of a range.

 

Everyone who studies taoism, health, immortality, energy work, yoga, meditation, or anything else interprets it a little differently. My guess is, even if you met a real immortal, their hairstyle would offend you, or their total lack of desire to do things your way would put you off. And that's often the point with a real teacher - if they're really intuitive, they'll go out of their way to appear as far from what you expect a "real taoist" to be as possible, because like any other ISM, conforming to any kind of picture or ideal is a trap. The reason that all spiritual teachers teach anything is to liberate us from our monkey-like need to copy something and to act of our own free will, to act intelligently, to think for ourselves.

 

As far as the topic of your post, I actually agree with you. If you have such a specific idea of what genuine taoism is, you know what your own personal tao is, and you really won't find anyone who lines up with that. It's totally for you. Practice it wholeheartedly and enjoy every minute of it! And if you're lucky nobody will come and try to copy what you're doing

[Infinity]

I don't see any real taoists here. Just massive liars, idiots or deluded fools under placebos.

Neither do i see any real taoists amongst the gamdmasters or teachers of taoism. By 'real taoists' i mean people who follow only the teachings of Lao zi and Zhuang zi and don't follow the ridiculous superstitions of chinese folk religion of the fantasy fairytales from buddhism/hinduism/christianity.

Since no one has yet reached enlightenment/immortality/maximum cultivation/whatever the goal of Taoism is, there is no need to be taught from anyone about something which no-one at present day has obtained.

It's like a blind boy asking his blind father to describe the colour 'blue'. He cannot possibly know, and even if he did know, there's no-way he can describe it in a way his son will understand the answer or interpret the real meaning.

To know if someone is lying one has to know the truth and if they know the truth why would they need a teacher?

 

I can only presume you are seeing the colour 'blue' or how would you know that others are not seeing it correctly? As you say a blind person cannot describe something he has never known.

 

So why are you here? To lead the blind?

 

∞

Edited May 10, 2014 by Infinity

[Mystique Enigma]

Reminds me of a small story .....

 

To a traveler who asked how he could tell a true Master from a false one the Master said shortly, "If you are not yourself deceitful, you will not be deceived." 

 To his disciples the Master later said, "Why do seekers assume that they themselves are honest and all they need is a test to detect deceit in Masters?"

[Infinity]

 

Reminds me of a small story .....

 

To a traveler who asked how he could tell a true Master from a false one the Master said shortly, "If you are not yourself deceitful, you will not be deceived."

 To his disciples the Master later said, "Why do seekers assume that they themselves are honest and all they need is a test to detect deceit in Masters?"

Or perhaps 'In the eyes of a thief everyone is a thief' by someone somewhere

 

∞

[LAOLONG]

the tao reveals it self also in idiots and deluded fools .

[Chang]

I don't see any real taoists here. Just massive liars, idiots or deluded fools under placebos.

 

"When you see a worthy person emulate them.

When you see an unworthy person examine yourself closely."

[GrandmasterP]

I once read a story about the Greek philosopher Socrates that highlights the point well. The story goes that whilst Socrates was sitting outside the gates of the ancient city of Athens, a traveller approached him and expressed an interest in moving to the city. As part of the conversation the traveller asked, ‘What are the people like here?’ In response Socrates asked, ‘How do the find the people in your own town?’ The man responded, ‘I’ll be glad to get away from them – they’re all backstabbers and thieves!’ With a look of sympathy and regret Socrates told the man that Athens would be a poor choice for a relocation because he’d find that everyone was exactly the same there.

 

Later the same day, another man approached Socrates and similarly asked about the virtues of moving to Athens. Again, Socrates asked the man, ‘What’s it like where you live now?’ The man responded, ‘If I move away I’ll be leaving many friends. Everyone in my town goes out of their way to help one another – cooperation, kindness and respect are part of the culture there.’ Socrates smiled and said, ‘Welcome to Athens – you’ll find everyone’s just the same here.’

[林愛偉]

Interesting concept here, because it reflects the common idea that Daoism was made by Lao zi and Chuang zi, and that all of Daoism revolves around them. This common belief is indeed a falsity, and simply shows the commercialism involved within Daoism and cultivation generally.

 

As well, it shines the mirror on common ideas that Daoism is simply just following the so called ways of nature, when I personally have never once heard anyone, anywhere, in Daoism, lay out any type of "ways" of nature. Especially when talking about the "will of heaven", which no one seems to be able to state from which heaven they are following the will of.

 

Regardless if one knows a truth of anything or not, a teacher helps one to refine their practice by assisting the student/cultivator in adjusting their views, and helping to change their habits as well as guide in practice how they apply their attitude and behavior.

 

So, the bringing up of this "problem" is still void of any true point because the views about Daoism are flawed.

 

Peace,

Lin

[RiverSnake]

Don't think you need a teacher just to get you started. There are a lot of simple and basic techniques out there that can be readily applied without anyone standing over you. When you get some experience under your belt then you will be able to tell the wheat from the chaff. Best of luck.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited May 10, 2014 by OldChi

[GrandmasterP]

Interesting concept here, because it reflects the common idea that Daoism was made by Lao zi and Chuang zi, and that all of Daoism revolves around them. This common belief is indeed a falsity, and simply shows the commercialism involved within Daoism and cultivation generally.

 

As well, it shines the mirror on common ideas that Daoism is simply just following the so called ways of nature, when I personally have never once heard anyone, anywhere, in Daoism, lay out any type of "ways" of nature. Especially when talking about the "will of heaven", which no one seems to be able to state from which heaven they are following the will of.

 

Regardless if one knows a truth of anything or not, a teacher helps one to refine their practice by assisting the student/cultivator in adjusting their views, and helping to change their habits as well as guide in practice how they apply their attitude and behavior.

 

So, the bringing up of this "problem" is still void of any true point because the views about Daoism are flawed.

 

Peace,

Lin

 

Cultivating Nembutsu diligently ( as per your avatar headline) will do the job equally well for those who cannot find a teacher.

That's why we have nembutsu as an option.

For cultivating IA though, teacher knows best for sure.

[doc benway]

 

Why should I have a teacher? Or follow anyone's advice here at all?

 

My response is that you shouldn't as you seem to already have it figured out.

 

 

I don't see any real taoists here. Just massive liars, idiots or deluded fools under placebos.

 

We tend to see what we are looking for…

I see a few genuine and lovely participants, many hurting and confused folks lost in the morass created by thought, and a few angry and bitter people who seem to be trying to ease their own pain and confusion by passing it on to others.

 

 

Neither do i see any real taoists amongst the gamdmasters or teachers of taoism. By 'real taoists' i mean people who follow only the teachings of Lao zi and Zhuang zi and don't follow the ridiculous superstitions of chinese folk religion of the fantasy fairytales from buddhism/hinduism/christianity.

 

Daoism, not to mention other spiritual paths in general, are more about opening to reality through careful observation and accommodation rather than narrowing our experience through the story created by our ideas and biases. Carrying judgement in your heart based on your assumptions and expectations of others is probably not the most expedient or skillful way of embracing wu wei and the three treasures.

 

 

Since no one has yet reached enlightenment/immortality/maximum cultivation/whatever the goal of Taoism is, there is no need to be taught from anyone about something which no-one at present day has obtained.

It's like a blind boy asking his blind father to describe the colour 'blue'. He cannot possibly know, and even if he did know, there's no-way he can describe it in a way his son will understand the answer or interpret the real meaning.

 

It may be helpful to understand your expectations of what the goals of Daoists are before concluding that they have never been reached. I agree that the teacher cannot tell you what Dao is but can help you to better understand what it is not and, if you are fortunate enough to find the right teacher, help you refine your search or your methods.

 

Good luck…. it sounds like you need some.

[Chang]

It is an unfortunate fact that we can only judge others by using ourselves as a measure and this can be dangerous.

 

The wise man can understand the fool because he has been foolish. However the fool cannot necessarily understand the wise man because he is not wise.

 

This is especially true when speaking of enlightenment. If we have not yet experienced that state of consciousness we can neither speak of it with authority nor comment on others who may or may not have attained that state.

[Apech]

the tao reveals it self also in idiots and deluded fools .

 

...there's hope for me yet, then.

[SonOfTheGods]

[soaring crane]

Sock puppet

[SonOfTheGods]

Sock puppet

couple of them, last couple of days

[BaguaKicksAss]

I've been tempted to have a play guess the sock puppet thread on TTBs, in off topic; it would be quite active year round .

 

I'll put in $1 on Teknix, any takers?

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I was gonna say that evil taoist debunker and bringer of light, wisdom and understanding but i think he might gong my wifi so better not...

[BaguaKicksAss]

Or Icedude, that was a good one (though Icedude isn't a first incarnation by far).

[BaguaKicksAss]

One reason to get a teacher is that someone who has been doing something for 40 years, likely has some good insights and techniques into it, unlike someone who is brand new at it. That's why we have universities and trade schools, and apprenticeship programs and such, for the more regular things one can learn. For the more subtle, qi deviations can be a bitch! Most good teachers don't force you to think or do their way, they more point stuff out, and give guidance when asked.

[soaring crane]

I was going for the exalted one.

 

But I'd best qualify my prior post by pointing out that it's just a feeling. I have no solid evidence. How could I?

[dogson]

We're psychic creatures and take on each other's qualities, too. Hanging out with *anybody* who has momentum on what serves your life mission can be outrageously helpful. Just a weekend workshop with BKFrantzis helped me hugely in my standing practice, to the extent I feel he activated something just by running a current through my channels.

 

Skill is different from consciousness - but they're interrelated at the deepest level. It can be really useful to find out how someone skillful *thinks* about their art... that's why I'm so obsessed with NLP and modeling right now. Rapid learning is really cool

[doc benway]

Or Icedude, that was a good one (though Icedude isn't a first incarnation by far).

My money's on sunlover, I think that was it's name…

Also one of many though I can't recall any of the other masques.