Real or fake ?

[adept]

There seems to be a lot of so called 'master's,sifu's,lama's and guru's' who are only too willing to show you their 'secrets' these days. Usually this comes in the form of having to hand over differing sums of money, ranging from a few pounds/dollars etc, for a book/dvd, to vast amounts of money for courses and seminars.

As there is such a lot of choice out there, especially since the internet is in so many homes, can we separate the wheat from the chaff? The fraud from the honest,sincere person who just wants to share what they know to anyone who asks?

I realise that a lot of practices can not just be shown and taught to anybody. I'm talking about the genuine seeker

who is searching for advice on their particular path.

Some of the name's that keep popping up on internet forums get a mixed response. I was looking for opinions on who we can or cannot trust with our time and money.

Here are some names that spring to mind

 

Mantak Chia

Lama Dorje

Dr Yang Jwing Ming

Kosta Danaos/John Chang

Paul Dong/ Rich Mooney

BK Frantzis

Peter Ragnar

 

Are these people genuinely out to help others, or are they just after our cash.

This could get interesting. Let's keep it civil and not let the topic turn into a slanging match.

 

Peace

 

Mark

[Trunk]

Here are some names that spring to mind

First thing you ought to do is put each of those names through the search facility here. There've been discussion threads of some of those, extensively, before.

[karen]

Mark, I would turn the question into an exercise for your own discernment. Perhaps that's the real benefit that the question could have for you? If we had these things pre-rated for us, we'd miss the chance to do our own spiritual exercise, which is what strengthens discernment.

 

Same as in the natural health field, there's a multitude of choices. In past ages there wasn't any of this, but now we have a rather unique chance to learn something from this availability of choices. There are zillions of outer forms, but very few fundamentally different phenomena. Look at the inner content vs. the outer form.

 

Even someone who is not after your cash could be quite sincerely deluded.. or someone may be an appropriate teacher for certain students but not right for you. Or you resonate with a particular teacher at a particular time, because that was a stepping stone to something else, and then it's time to move on. I would look for a resonance that feels true at this time, even if it's not the kind of intense attraction that the false ego loves. Same way you enter into any mature relationship. The true self knows resonance when it experiences it.

 

-Karen

[sunshine]

Yep. It's been discussed a lot in recent times... I personally feel you can never really know if you have not gone the path already to find out And as you can grasp from all the discussions on the topic even if somebody tells you their teacher is real and is not just out for money etc. etc. etc.: it does not mean that others believe you or trust the scenario. I have done many things in the last 14 years and often found it out to be a cheat, not really worth it etc. etc. etc. As I say. You have to go the way and find out for yourself

 

One thing I can tell you. Don't look for John Chang. He does not teach anyone of us anymore. And Kosta is not in the position to, as far as I understood.

 

 

Harry

[Guest sykkelpump]

There seems to be a lot of so called 'master's,sifu's,lama's and guru's' who are only too willing to show you their 'secrets' these days. Usually this comes in the form of having to hand over differing sums of money, ranging from a few pounds/dollars etc, for a book/dvd, to vast amounts of money for courses and seminars.

As there is such a lot of choice out there, especially since the internet is in so many homes, can we separate the wheat from the chaff? The fraud from the honest,sincere person who just wants to share what they know to anyone who asks?

I realise that a lot of practices can not just be shown and taught to anybody. I'm talking about the genuine seeker

who is searching for advice on their particular path.

Some of the name's that keep popping up on internet forums get a mixed response. I was looking for opinions on who we can or cannot trust with our time and money.

Here are some names that spring to mind

 

Mantak Chia

Lama Dorje

Dr Yang Jwing Ming

Kosta Danaos/John Chang

Paul Dong/ Rich Mooney

BK Frantzis

Peter Ragnar

 

 

 

Are these people genuinely out to help others, or are they just after our cash.

This could get interesting. Let's keep it civil and not let the topic turn into a slanging match.

 

Peace

 

Mark

I have tried mantak chias stuff,and I have searched for results from others which have done the same.I belive he is after the cash.i think all his fomula teachings are bullshit.

[Trunk]

I personally feel you can never really know if you have not gone the path already to find out

That's too nice, imo. If you see 20, or 50, or 150 people come through a system, and there's a significant percentage that have a similar pattern of bruises - it's worth noticing.

 

I've become more appreciative of sangha (group of fellow students), vs exclusively teacher-emphasis, over the years. I've been in a number of spiritual groups, over 20 yrs+, and (of the ones that were worth while) every one (even if the Teacher was consistently astonishing) had pluses and minuses, and the wise (usually more experienced) students were good at more clearly recognizing what were the strengths that were being offered, what were the gaps or weaknesses, and were better at maintaining healthy boundaries. The thing is, if you haven't been around the block several times... especially since the actual principles, the basic mechanics of spiritual progress, are not generally clearly known - so you've got no template by which to assess a methodology. Oooh, it's a mess. Community is good, because it helps you recognize similar patterns of effects of whatever certain path your exploring. You can share notes, "oh, yeah!, that happened to me too!" where-as, alone, you're likely to think that "it's just me", or not even recognize the pattern at all.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Trunk

[mat black]

It's an intersting topic, because I know people that do not groove at all with some masters/teachers, while others resonate perfectly with them.

 

Like Karen said, individual discernment is important. And, to me, a pre-requisit for that is sincerity of intent.

 

I agree with what Trunk said too. There can be hits and misses. That's why I think that if you maintain a sincere intent, that which you really need will manifest.

 

 

What are the motives for seeking a master/teacher ? Is it awakening/purification/cultivation/health, harmonisation that one is seeking? And end to ignorance? Not a 'better, more comfortable delusion, but a actual 'seeing'. An inner yearning for alignment with the divine? These things are the fruits of sincerity of intent.

 

To seek proof first, without first having an open heart might be a waste of time.

A real master can take one look at you and immediatly know what your motives are.

And if you look and feel, you can probably discern whether he/she is genuine too.

 

The 'documentation' of a masters ability can be validated by your own experience. But you gotta be an empty cup. And even the desire for some 'proof' puts a lid on the cup.

 

If I was to give any advice, i'd say that until one finds a teacher, only practice very safe techniques - daoyin for example.

 

[Trunk]

And even the desire for some 'proof' puts a lid on the cup.

There is a place where you're new to a practice, and you employ it at the instruction of your teacher, and you're just diligent and dumb and open to what ever results may come. But then you must, over time, see what happens, as best you can - so you can learn what's going on and how it integrates with balance in your system. It's not uncommon that students who don't discern that to either get no where, or produce an imbalance.

 

So, my point is that "being open to new results" has it's place, but that doesn't mean permanently parking your brain outside the meeting hall. Which often happens. And, ultimately, the results aren't respectful to the Wisdom Teachings, they're tragic.

 

I am the designated grouchy old man for this thread. In every group I've ever been in, each has only offered part of what I needed - and, in hindsight, if I could've discerned what was there and what was missing, in sort of a brutal fashion, I would've been a lot better off. It isn't all fluff: the truth is that it's common for people to get injured (health, psychology, spiritual configuration, sexuality) on the path, and it's generally difficult to find any sort of actually skillful remedies within a knowledgable framework. It's that bad.

 

But what is there to do about it, in general? For people who are really into this, it's not a choice, they're in it for the duration and that's just the way it is. So, hack away through the jungle and receive sips of clear water when you can get it.

 

Just to sum it up, I wouldn't particularly say "it's all good".

Be discerning, you'll get more out of things, and be a better student.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Trunk

[sunshine]

>>If you see 20, or 50, or 150 people come through a system, and there's a significant percentage that have a similar pattern of bruises - it's worth noticing.<<

 

Yep! Fully of your opinion... but the typical trouble of a "group" is that you still don't really know any truth even though they all might tell you "the same" and they had "this and that experiences"?

 

I mean. I have often met people who claim they have seen angels etc. etc. etc. But just because 8 out of 10 in a group say they share that experience does not really mean anything, does it? - until you yourself actually see them... right?

 

 

Harry

[zenbrook]

I am the designated grouchy old man for this thread.

Thank the lord for that - saves me the bother

ZenB

[Ian]

I am the designated grouchy old man for this thread. In every group I've ever been in, each has only offered part of what I needed - and, in hindsight, if I could've discerned what was there and what was missing, in sort of a brutal fashion, I would've been a lot better off. It isn't all fluff: the truth is that it's common for people to get injured (health, psychology, spiritual configuration, sexuality) on the path, and it's generally difficult to find any sort of actually skillful remedies within a knowledgable framework. It's that bad.

 

My teacher has said, not to me directly, that if a spiritual teacher does more good than harm, he or she is doing really, really well. And that's assuming that they are fully qualified and well-intentioned in the first place.

 

I also agree with the comment about any group only providing part of what's needed. It's just too huge. How to practice, how to live so you can practice, how to live so you can live, including what on earth to do about the opposite sex,, how to integrate all that, are all vast topics. If you find someone who can cover one of those properly you're very lucky.

 

imho, naturally.

 

Yours, slightly old, and distinctly grouchy,

I

[karen]

the typical trouble of a "group" is that you still don't really know any truth even though they all might tell you "the same" and they had "this and that experiences"?

 

You could know the truth of the situation if you looked past the outer appearances of what the people are saying, and saw the inner content of what was occurring. To use a medical analogy, it's like when someone is being cured of disease, and they may go through an intense healing process in which all kinds of nasty symptoms come out. If you judge the process based on that superficial nastiness, you think something went terribly wrong. But if you recognized the true nature of what was happening, you see the deeper purpose being served.

 

This isn't to say that all experience is fair and part of healing; the person may really be in a disease process, not a healing process, and again, it takes skill to discern the difference.

 

You can look at the fruits of a teacher's teaching that way, although of course that's not as easy as looking under the street lamp where it's easier to see .

 

-Karen

Edited August 7, 2007 by karen

[freeform]

>>If you see 20, or 50, or 150 people come through a system, and there's a significant percentage that have a similar pattern of bruises - it's worth noticing.<<

 

Yep! Fully of your opinion... but the typical trouble of a "group" is that you still don't really know any truth even though they all might tell you "the same" and they had "this and that experiences"?

 

I mean. I have often met people who claim they have seen angels etc. etc. etc. But just because 8 out of 10 in a group say they share that experience does not really mean anything, does it? - until you yourself actually see them... right?

 

 

Harry

 

I agree with Karen and wanted to add that I personally pay little attention to what is actually said, and much more so to how it is said and the person that's saying it. How aware are they? how busy is their mind? where does your own attention naturally jump to when you're with them? how do their eyes move? how present are they? how able are they to go internal and then external? how do you feel in your self when with them? (do you feel scattered? safe? centered? attacked? protected? abandoned? etc) I also notice how they breathe, how they move/walk - when they speak is the attention and energy on the words or on the spaces between the words? what is their range of sensory vocabulary? (this shows whether they are belly, heart or head centered or balanced). How 'edited' does their communication feel? - as in do they think about what they are going to say? or do you feel they have a pre-prepared speech? or is the dialogue spontaneous and unedited? etc etc etc

 

It all seems hard to pick up - you really need to be in the moment to notice these things - but they are all there and very obvious once you let go of the mind and allow you attention to be focused externally and on them.

 

This also applies to both the teacher and the high-level students...

[OpenSecret2012]

There seems to be a lot of so called 'master's,sifu's,lama's and guru's' who are only too willing to show you their 'secrets' these days. Usually this comes in the form of having to hand over differing sums of money, ranging from a few pounds/dollars etc, for a book/dvd, to vast amounts of money for courses and seminars.

 

 

1. The REAL hardcore teachers you'll have to FIND yourself. And I mean FIND them, because they don't want to BE found! These are the teachers who can go a month without food, or water, who use their top chakra to feed theirselves. These are the teachers who walk around the Himalaya's near naked, in minus 20 degree wind chill weather and when you touch them they are warm and hot.

 

Muhammed Ali the boxer once met an Asian teacher. He told Ali to punch him as hard as he could in the neck. Ali did, and nothing happened. This is what I mean by the real teachers who exist, but don't want to be found. It's just like in those old martial arts movies, where the student follows the teacher around for years, until the teacher finally gives in and starts teaching him - after seeing how driven the student is to want to learn.

 

2. On to the "known" teachers. The ones who do wish to be found. Just because they want money doesn't always mean they are evil. What... you expect them to sleep on a park bench? Your point can be used against itself - if some teachings are being given away cheap, maybe they are like pop music. If some teachings are expensive, maybe they are like quality nitch music that's 1 million times better than Britney Spears.

 

3. Money shouldn't be THE deciding factor. Some EXCELLENT books cost serious money. (Go check out the Matrix 5 book... $80 buckaroos it costs per copy! And it's better than every single text book taught in high school, and college!). Just like when ya shop for a car, cloths, sometimes the more expensive is better quality... sometimes the least expensive is just as good quality. How do you know/find out? Research. Observe. Ask questions. I'll take that 80.oo book over any 20.oo or 50.oo book any day. Even if I have to go a few days without food, and water, and be stuck recycling/drinking my own urine! (after a few times, it becomes more pure than the purest water

 

The deciding factor should be your intuition. Your "gut" feeling. Your "Higher Self". Your instincts. After doing common sense research - talking to whatever teacher, former students, standing back and observing .... simular to how ya read the back cover of a book that may intrest you before buying it....... Or even stand back and watch how other book browsers re-act to a certain book. When I go to the movies, part of the fun is observing the crowd and how they react, their comments before and after the movie. Stand back and observe.

 

If it feels right, if you don't get any obvious negative vibes - then save up your $$$$ and check it out - whatever book, whatever teacher, whatever DVD's, courses, blah blah blah.... etc... etc... etc... All I'm saying is don't let money be THE deciding factor when your shopping around for something serious, something life changing, something that may give more quality to your life.

Edited August 7, 2007 by OpenSecret2012