How can you tell if you are getting the real deal / indoor teachings?

[RiverSnake]

 

Hmmmm, that works for some things, depends what you are looking for. Sometimes you will get a martial arts teacher who really has the goods, but their students don't come out so well personality wise (or sometimes even them themselves could use a lot of work on the personal evolution front).... So then one has to look at the fact that you in a way "inherit" the teacher's energy infused Taichi (or whichever martial art), and how important that is to you. Perhaps you just want to be able to physically move amazingly well and defend yourself like no other, and that is of less importance. On the otherhand, perhaps it is of primary importance and you also wish to cultivate something a bit more "refined".

Lol.....when I was writing in regards to virtue and character I was thinking more of Qi Gong and less about martial arts. Not many martial artists....at-least in the U.S. are that concerned about Purity, Virtue and spirituality in general......that is my experience.

 

Most martial artists IME are more concerned with learning to defend themselves, there family and learning how to most effectively kick ass.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

Edited May 12, 2014 by OldChi

[BaguaKicksAss]

Good questions...

And a follow up question - what does it matter, other than to our ego?

 

I've had several good and a few great martial arts teachers.

I was able to find answers to your questions through my own experience with my current teacher.

I've trained with him for about 12 years and began teaching for him after about 3.

As I grew as a student and instructor myself, I began to see the overall picture of his teaching method.

 

I saw that he first taught me the art itself - basics, form, posture, breathing, applications,etc...,

The second stage, that began as we got into the intermediate and advanced stages was that he taught me how to learn.

That was critically important. In doing that, he gave me the tools I need to self correct and continue to grow.

The next stage was teaching me how to teach, which could not have happened without stage 2 - learning how to learn.

And at some point he told me that I had to fly on my own and to stop bothering him with questions...

 

So looking back, I'm quite certain that there are things that he reserves for his successor.

I also know that he does not teach everything to every student but rather thoughtfully selects what he thinks students will benefit from the most and what is most suitable to their strengths and aptitude. And here I am referring to the advanced methods and "pith" type instructions that are only useful to those that are in a position, and have demonstrated the aptitude, to take advantage of them.

 

And at the end of the day, I'll turn it around and ask the person who is concerned with whether or not their teacher is holding back - have you thoroughly understood and mastered everything you have been shown to date?

Because if not, the things that are being withheld only matter to the ego...

 

Since I started IMA for health reasons it was of key importance that I get the real deal/something good and strong. Fortunately it only took me about a year to find that. I lucked out. Then lucked out some more, and even some more . What I learned at first didn't have much to it (not everyone needs the same things), but still at least helped a bit and got me started. I still am very grateful for my friend, who had practiced martial arts for 64 years, who didn't tell me anything, but instead gave me a history lesson about the martial arts in china, how they changed, wushu, what the government did to/with martial arts and etc. This person never did teach me any martial arts, but always gave me the best advice . He also taught me how to keep my practice in mind (and stances) while I work doing my job, and etc. He taught me how it is really a 24X7 thing, not just a when I train in class or at home thing. After that I knew better what to look for .

[BaguaKicksAss]

Lol.....when I was writing in regards to virtue and character I was thinking more of Qi Gong and less about martial arts. Not many martial artists....at-least in the U.S. are that concerned about Purity, Virtue and spirituality in general......that is my experience.

 

Most martial artists IME are more concerned with learning to defend themselves, there family and learning how to most effectively kick ass.

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

My 2 cents, Peace

 

The ones I have met, are at least working on it. Bagua and Taichi ones specifically that is. Then there are others who find such things to be of primary concern, and necessary to learn the rest. They are at the very least much more enjoyable to train with .

[BaguaKicksAss]

On a quick note: I don't think the Tibetian's were hoarding spiritual knowledge. I have been there and it is isolated, also hoarding spiritual knowledge is something intrinsically somewhat impossible to do.

 

Regarding the broader theme, this is a very interesting subject and one which crosses several lines, one of which I have never seen discussed here before: the issue of magic. It is one reason very fine teachers would certainly hesitate to speak here at the TTBs.

 

BaguakicksAss said in her response to the above quote:

 

"Hmmm, I personally hold back a lot of teachings (not Chinese), so people won't go around harming innocents, or (more often) themselves. Also I really don't care to have a handed down tradition mass market produced in paperbacks. Some things just aren't meant for the entire population, and are more meant for people that we get to know quite well over several years. People tend to change when they get some power (or perceived power), and can go some very bad directions, as I have found. I see no reason to make certain things public. Even in my martial arts and neigong stuff, it isn't just handed out, it is taught to serious students, after a time. Someone asked me to teach them iron vest during their second class... uhm no. (and not like they couldn't handle it)."

 

I agree with her

 

The deep stuff cannot be taught without readiness and it might possibly be either dangerous in the hands of those not ready, or it will float completely past them and register only in an odd and contorted way with all sorts of assumptions distorting any results that might take place.

Personally I have a whole closet of stuff that will not be coming out of me during this life because it is not helpful for people to know and if they needed to know it they would fined it without problem because all the pieces are just sitting out in the open.

 

The issue of magic is a serious one and the intermixing here of students of magic and also those actively edging around what are typically the leanings of the black "arts" pretty much excludes the type of teaching that might otherwise spring here.

In the end, the black arts and magic are low beyond compare to what one can do with relative ease in the higher realms, and by higher realms I mean ones right here on earth in our bodies and in teachings that flourish all over this world.

 

The higher realms are in our backyards, pitched on our shoulders and running under our feet.

Socrates gave a peek into the highest teaching when he said "I know nothing"

But people do not want to hear this.

 

People do not want to hear "practice these simple techniques and from them all will be revealed to you"

They want MCO and retention and hair shirts and handstands. All the little tiny stuff.

A though Z and a definition of every step upon the way. It usually takes years to get past the small mindedness, and just when you think a student has promise they think they know something and die before you eyes - where they will resurface is anyone's guess.

 

It takes a great deal of time for a teacher to understand that looking for "real" students is an unproductive effort - you teach and learn teaching but it is your center that will attract a real student and they will recognize you even if they don't have a clue.

 

And what is a real student? There is no such thing as one who is not. You would not have a body if you were not a student.

 

The basics do not require a great master and the only thing a great master has to offer is you to yourself.

 

Actually I was referring to magic in my response . I have brought such things up a few times on the board, most don't agree with me, as most feel magic information should be public and/or freely given (and I don't mean money). I strongly disagree with this view. The public magic info can be found at any bookstore....

 

What do you mean by "black arts", because I'm pretty sure I disagree with you on your summation of such things vs "higher" things, but I have found a few times on TTBs that it was more a different definition of terms more than anything else that led to a bit of debate.... Thought I'd ask before typing for 10 minutes lol.

[GrandmasterP]

One of the best teachers I sat with was terrible but I learnt a lot from her.

How NOT to teach being the best lesson.

We don't have any secret-woo stuff in our school/tradition.

It's all out there for free online and a small donation to cover dojo hire and pay for the tea to attend a class.

If a cultivation works for you and you're happy with the teacher you'll stick with it, if it doesn't suit then you'll probably go elsewhere.

The 'real deal' is whatever works and what works for one may not work for another.

Hence the wide menu of cultivations on offer.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Friend]

Actually indoor teaching means you have good foundation

and level in your art and exercised techniques to a certain degree.

 

When one get indoor teachings one get refinement other

students dont know and can be proven as effective when

testing one skills to others and one has an advantage

the other students can not figure out even if they try to imitate you.

 

The other thing is that in training on develop faster and connect

things one would not know if one is not told.

The things is when one is share a secret it works immeadtely

but may be a bit instable works and fails where one has to exercise

it to make it useable all the time. But one know that is works.

[thelerner]

From a martial arts sense, it helps to go to seminars in your art from famous reputable sensei's in other branches. In the Chicagoland area in the Aikido set we'd have world class people coming through every year or so and you could take 3 day long classes with them, one of the most impressive to me being Mitsugi Saotome. (The man moved like he was on skates and threw like roller coaster)

 

He'd always draw a large crowd from across the Midwest and from all styles of Aikido. Seminars like his were a good way to see how techniques and philosophy differed and compare yourself to others from around nearby states.

 

I suppose the same might be applicable if you went to a meditative intensive. Though that could be trickier.

[GrandmasterP]

+1

Those guys are the real deal because the best sensei's recognise them as such and recommend them.

Hence they always draw big crowds and as soon as you see someone who is on top of the game it is pretty easy to tell.

I like MA for that, there's very little BS with MA, what you see is what you get as a rule.

The best players tend not to get their erses kicked too often.

With the IA there are plenty of teachers out there who talk a good game but who is to tell if they are right or not?

It's all happening inside and invisible so how do 'we' know for sure?

Meditation retreat leaders maybe.

If they are good then it's more likely to be a good retreat experience.

Thing is though with MA you can generally see an improvement in peoples' practice whereas with IA you're more likely to 'hear' about an improvement or an effect.

IA's more subjective in a way.

Edited May 12, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[BaguaKicksAss]

the people that invented the concept of inner teachings think they are not a choice you can make, but a matter of destiny, and they teach and act accordingly, if you have fate with them, they will open up, to what extent, it could only depend of the nature of your 'fate' with that specific teaching

 

my take is you couldn't know

 

Very good point. How I personally see is that it is the path itself, and perhaps the ancestors and etc. of the path which decide, not the student, and not really the teacher necessarily.

[BaguaKicksAss]

I find that with meditation teachers it is more about good advertising and promotion, as well as a popularity contest.

 

To tell who is good in the energetic practices, one just has to go with intuition. You can *feel* a master a mile away!

 

Hell I'm not even close to master level, and someone could tell right off I was lying when I told them I had been practicing 2 years . (I hadn't spoken about anything yet, we were just doing quick introductions).

[Spotless]

 

Actually I was referring to magic in my response . I have brought such things up a few times on the board, most don't agree with me, as most feel magic information should be public and/or freely given (and I don't mean money). I strongly disagree with this view. The public magic info can be found at any bookstore....

 

What do you mean by "black arts", because I'm pretty sure I disagree with you on your summation of such things vs "higher" things, but I have found a few times on TTBs that it was more a different definition of terms more than anything else that led to a bit of debate.... Thought I'd ask before typing for 10 minutes lol.

I am extremely glad you asked for clarification as it is something too rarely done, but I am afraid that my definition in this case is probably the one you would disagree with. I will probably not choose to defend the position but just to clarify a bit, it would be the definition that views manipulation as either a very bad thing or an activity that easily slides into bad activity by sheer habit.

 

Magic / manipulation without consent, covertly, for personal gain, altering futures, impedance of others for gain or "acting like god".

General bending of the natural currents of others. This would fall under my definition from a negative standpoint.

I understand that every one of these skill sets can be used in a positive manner but the odds of a bottom up use not stepping in the wrong direction is very rare.

 

By bottom up I mean knowing of and widely practicing these tools without already being practically enlightened or in fact enlightened.

Obviously you can use the tools for growing food and weather changes and a whole host of things that are fine and create no problems but in most cases this goes hand in hand with a pile of mis- behaviors that are typically taken for granted in a flippant way.

 

I would like to hear what you have to say - I have some very good witch friends with whom I have never had this discussion nor have I shared much with them along these lines.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Spotless

[BaguaKicksAss]

I am extremely glad you asked for clarification as it is something too rarely done, but I am afraid that my definition in this case is probably the one you would disagree with. I will probably not choose to defend the position but just to clarify a bit, it would be the definition that views manipulation as either a very bad thing or an activity that easily slides into bad activity by sheer habit.

 

Magic / manipulation without consent, covertly, for personal gain, altering futures, impedance of others for gain or "acting like god".

General bending of the natural currents of others. This would fall under my definition from a negative standpoint.

I understand that every one of these skill sets can be used in a positive manner but the odds of a bottom up use not stepping in the wrong direction is very rare.

 

By bottom up I mean knowing of and widely practicing these tools without already being practically enlightened or in fact enlightened.

Obviously you can use the tools for growing food and weather changes and a whole host of things that are fine and create no problems but in most cases this goes hand in hand with a pile of mis- behaviors that are typically taken for granted in a flippant way.

 

I would like to hear what you have to say - I have some very good witch friends with whom I have never had this discussion nor have I shared much with them along these lines.

 

Some random thoughts as I work .

 

I feel that magic is magic, each system has its techniques and methods and spirits. It is the magician themselves that decides each time and in general what they are going to do with such things.

 

I have found the supposedly "white lightest" practitioners to throw just as many curses around as the "darker" folks. For example.

 

All paths have ethics, even the darkest ones (for example don't harm children or animals), yet I have seen some practitioners harm children (pretty pathetic IMO). The teachers of all paths also tend to be pretty choosy about who they teach since so much can be done with such techniques and information.

 

It is very likely you wouldn't like the day I used some compel powder to return an opened box electronics item that was the wrong item for me, to the store .

 

Now the dark stuff, having the knowledge doesn't lead to using it necessarily, it doesn't tend to change people... unless.... the person hasn't worked out their deep anger towards others AND doesn't have a strong set of ethics. Or who is new to things and gets caught up in the power trip of it all. Having a teacher really helps that, the teacher tends to tear folks a new one who do "stupid shit".

 

What things can all this dark knowledge help with, well undoing crap that others have had put on them is handy. Knowing what to look for when you run into some spirit or energy. Actually most left hand path folks use it to delve into their own darkness and figure themselves out.

 

Is magic manipulation any worse than say.... NLP? Or just natural manipulating another? Or fudging one's resume'?

 

Some say the info is there so the system is complete. I wonder sometimes if the info is there to test us, to see what we will do with it.

 

And some folks (on the online magick forums generally) think all magic should be public *shakes head*.

 

Now personal gain, and altering futures I can get behind . I also don't feel this is much different than say someone of a religion praying... actually.... it is using fancy ritual and incense and such to tell some Deities what you would like help with, vs praying to tell some Deity what you would like help with... (if you are fortunate said Deity will favor you and tell you it's not a good idea if it is something that will screw you up lol).

 

PS for anyone new to this forum, no worries, I am by far in the minority with these viewpoints, on this forum .

[spiraltao]

Great post BKA.

[z00se]

I am extremely glad you asked for clarification as it is something too rarely done, but I am afraid that my definition in this case is probably the one you would disagree with. I will probably not choose to defend the position but just to clarify a bit, it would be the definition that views manipulation as either a very bad thing or an activity that easily slides into bad activity by sheer habit.

 

Magic / manipulation without consent, covertly, for personal gain, altering futures, impedance of others for gain or "acting like god".

General bending of the natural currents of others. This would fall under my definition from a negative standpoint.

I understand that every one of these skill sets can be used in a positive manner but the odds of a bottom up use not stepping in the wrong direction is very rare.

 

By bottom up I mean knowing of and widely practicing these tools without already being practically enlightened or in fact enlightened.

Obviously you can use the tools for growing food and weather changes and a whole host of things that are fine and create no problems but in most cases this goes hand in hand with a pile of mis- behaviors that are typically taken for granted in a flippant way.

 

I would like to hear what you have to say - I have some very good witch friends with whom I have never had this discussion nor have I shared much with them along these lines.

 

I read the other day on wikipedia about the curse the American Indians put on US presidents and how they died when getting elected every 20 years or so. How full on was that! Thats if wikipedia tells me correctly!

[BaguaKicksAss]

DP

 

Where's the original post?

[doc benway]

Is magic manipulation any worse than say.... NLP? Or just natural manipulating another? Or fudging one's resume'?

 

Manipulation is just that, regardless of the tools we use...

What is important is the intention behind the action.

[BaguaKicksAss]

Manipulation is just that, regardless of the tools we use...

What is important is the intention behind the action.

 

Sometimes intention is gets a little skewed too... people praying for their family to quit their "evil" Taoist path and come to the light, with the best intentions ever! Or perhaps some magic to breakup a friend who is dating the worst man for her ever... again best intentions. The first example is quite acceptable for some reason, whereas it can really make someone's path difficult. I think that folks should put more thought into what they are doing.... Or at least call a spade a spade. "you doing some more black magic on me mom?" lol (fortunately I have never had that problem, but know many people who do).

 

Asking the divine, or doing a tarot reading first is always good .

[doc benway]

Sometimes intention is gets a little skewed too... people praying for their family to quit their "evil" Taoist path and come to the light, with the best intentions ever! Or perhaps some magic to breakup a friend who is dating the worst man for her ever... again best intentions. The first example is quite acceptable for some reason, whereas it can really make someone's path difficult. I think that folks should put more thought into what they are doing....

 

If my intention is to cause you to change your life to suit my preferences, I would not consider that a good intention.

That's rather selfish and presumptuous, IMO.

 

 

Or at least call a spade a spade. "you doing some more black magic on me mom?" lol (fortunately I have never had that problem, but know many people who do).

 

Asking the divine, or doing a tarot reading first is always good .

[GrandmasterP]

You got that right about 'white lightists' throwing out bad stuff now and again BKA.

Some jobbing mediums can be absolute ratbags for bitchy gossip about their perceived competitors.

Nice as pie with clients and in public but get a bunch of mediums gossiping together and woe betide the ones who did not turn up for coffee

Edited May 13, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[spiraltao]

I am learning to use my heart mind, mind more.

[Mystique Enigma]

I was training with a "student" today (he's had 30 years experience, I'm not entirely sure I'm the teacher lol)... anyways, we started discussing martial arts and qigong teachers. He said how does he know he had gotten the proper closed door teachings from his various teachers? It was more of a rhetorical question, so I didn't have time to answer. It is something interesting to ponder though. Everyone either thinks their teacher is the best and has the most secret indoor teachings of them ALL! , or tends to worry that they aren't getting the true transmission and so forth. (well OK and some folks just enjoy training and don't worry about such things).

 

But anyways, so how does one tell? There are most definitely different quality of teachers, and you sometimes wonder if a certain teacher didn't quite get all the teachings (or perhaps they just don't want to teach them in a group class, or to you in particular). Then people wonder how can you tell which teachers are better than others? Difficult when you are brand new. I have had people explain to me how when they were new to the art they gave up a good solid traditional teacher who really new their stuff, for a fancy wushu one who didn't teach nearly as deeply.

 

So how did/do each of you tell? I personally don't feel asking on internet forums to be very reliable unfortunately, as it really is a popularity contest, though sometimes it can work I'm sure. Also when online, advertising does play a role. I think asking around in person, but also trying a few. You can sort of tell which one... well at the very least which one you mesh the best with and get along the best with. Sometimes I wonder if that is more important than perhaps just a bit more skill? Folks tend to learn a LOT faster when there is a connection between teacher and student. Also one can look for commonalities. There are some basic principals that folks all cover, or at least should cover (that are unfortunately left out of group classes a lot). I found asking experienced martial artists isn't necessarily the best idea, they all tell you that their teacher and their martial art is best .

 

A young man caught a small bird, and held it behind his back. He then asked, "Master, is the bird I hold in my hands alive or dead." The boy thought this was a grand opportunity to play a trick on the old man. If the master answered "dead", it would be let loose into the air. If the master answered "alive", he would simply wring its neck. The master spoke, "The answer is in your hands".

[Ya Mu]

A little boy was walking along the path. He came upon a snake who asked the boy, "Will you please pick me up and put me in your pocket?"

The little boy replied, "But you are a snake. And I have heard that snakes bite people."

The snake replied, "Oh, but I won't bite you, I promise. I have the best of intentions and just want to get warm. Please pick me up and put me in your pocket so I can get warm."

The little boy said to himself, "Well, I guess I shouldn't mind picking up the snake." So he did and put the snake in his pocket.

The little boy walked along and soon his hands got cold and he put them in his pockets to warm up.

The snake immediately bit him.

The little boy cried "Here I helped you and you told me you wouldn't bite me!"

The snake replied, "But you knew I was a snake when you picked me up."

 

 

[liminal_luke]

Now personal gain, and altering futures I can get behind . I also don't feel this is much different than say someone of a religion praying... actually.... it is using fancy ritual and incense and such to tell some Deities what you would like help with, vs praying to tell some Deity what you would like help with... (if you are fortunate said Deity will favor you and tell you it's not a good idea if it is something that will screw you up lol).

 

 

The difference between conventional prayer and magical asking comes down to this: most people don´t believe conventional prayer works. Therefore, it´s ok. About magic they aren´t so sure.

 

Liminal

Edited May 24, 2014 by liminal_luke

[寒月 Hanyue]

..

Edited May 25, 2014 by snowmonki

[fizix]

indoor teachings!? mahahah, the real teachings are outdoor, OUTSIDE...

 

 

observe....nature....

 

 

LU

 

 

W.